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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 3rd Dec 2018, 21:53
  #5441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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And therein lies the rub. What BA are doing is not only gross invasion of privacy it also reinforces their attitude of pilots as people who cannot be trusted. If you’re in any doubt about this go have a look at the RIM entry for Nice. What is basically (for any other airline) a VOR with a visual turn onto final is turned into the biggest mountain out of a molehill you could ever find towards what is essentially a pretty straightforward place to get in and out of. Just look out the window and fly the thing. No wait, BA don’t trust you to do that so they write paragraph after paragraph of procedure simply to encourage you to leave the autopilot in. Talk about deskilling and over-complication
Most airlines do this. Generally a reaction to someone f***ing up somewhere. Two airlines that I have flown for do exactly the same thing. I know of one major ME carrier that is equally as culpable. Aviation is continually dumbed down & this creates its own problems which are sometimes all too evident on the line. BA is no different in this department.

Anyway, thread drift I feel. The overall opinion that I get with regards to joining BA now as a DEP is ‘buyer beware.’ Although the numbers were less than a handful, a few guys have made it back or have joined my outfit after brief spells at BA (both SH & LH fleets). Something, that once upon a time, was completely unheard of. You didn’t leave BA once you were in! When I heard of this, it made me a little disappointed if I’m truly honest.

Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 3rd Dec 2018 at 22:04.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 06:45
  #5442 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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It’s a big company, just about any policy on anything at BA gets referred to the lawyers, and not just the big issues...

Re automation: If an aircraft goes off the end because of a handling stuff up such as being a bit fast on the approach the lawyers are concerned that somebody in Flight Ops will get dragged up in court to explain why the company didn’t make the use of Mr Boeing or Alphonse Airbus’s autothrottle/autothrust mandatory.

Similar with commuting...The theory goes that “legal” has hinted that BA itself might be held to blame if an individual uses BA facilitated staff travel to get to work and then is found by the authorities to have breached some aspect of the EASA regs when it comes to fatigue.. So Flight Ops looked hard at those who indulged in “extreme” commuting. However having got such a process in place it appears somebody now feels they now have no choice but to continue drilling down into the data and look in detail at the travel arrangements of absolutely anyone who arrives by way of staff travel into LHR/LGW at any point prior to report (I suspect they don’t feel there a similar need yet to look at those who drive or travel in by other airlines because BA don’t directly facilitate such travel...and as yet BA don’t have access to that data.)

Ultimately and has rightly been said you do get the impression that often the company think pilots are not to be trusted. I am sure those who say that there are worse outfits are correct but as I mentioned earlier BA can be a funny old outfit and it is completely process driven...Now in my experience most of us I think successfully work around or through that aspect of the operation, especially when away from Mission Control, but I’d agree with the comment that it is certainly “buyer beware”...


Last edited by wiggy; 4th Dec 2018 at 07:31.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:25
  #5443 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Although, I believe now BA SOPs do not authorise any ‘hand flying’ down route without A/T engaged.
This doesn’t apply on the 744.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 08:55
  #5444 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post
This doesn’t apply on the 744.
That (manual thrust in manual flight on the 744at BA) is of course true TC but isn’t that simply down to the potentially destabilising effect of the pitch/power couple, rather than some largesse on the part of the lawyers or a belief in the office that only the 744 has truely superior pilots....
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 09:34
  #5445 (permalink)  
 
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A quick health warning for the PPRuNe/yammer regulars, maybe start looking at the glass half full:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...o-be-negative/
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 11:48
  #5446 (permalink)  
 
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So is the SH Captain still commuting from Australia / NZ ? Or is it now OK cos he doesnt use BA ?
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 13:21
  #5447 (permalink)  
 
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I know the last individual I came into contact with (quite recently FWIW) who did that sort of commute with BA was very very diligent in making sure he was compliant with EASA/BA regs. Must have been darned tough on his home life but horses for courses I guess, plus a prt time contract.

Of course mixed fleet cabin crew combine short haul flying with operating the SIN/SYD/SIN 9 day trip, so whilst to/from Oz plus shorthaul sounds outlandish the company roster something along those lines... but you’ve obviously got to stick to the rules.

Last edited by wiggy; 4th Dec 2018 at 13:37.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 14:01
  #5448 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Barcli View Post
So is the SH Captain still commuting from Australia / NZ ? Or is it now OK cos he doesnt use BA ?
The problem will come for those not diligent enough is when an incident occurs which involves the CAA. They will go through everything.
Some Pilots think they can get away with it because BA can’t really police it
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 15:34
  #5449 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
I believe now BA SOPs do not authorise any ‘hand flying’ down route without A/T engaged.
Fake news - not true.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 15:57
  #5450 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by king surf View Post

The problem will come for those not diligent enough is when an incident occurs which involves the CAA. They will go through everything.
Some Pilots think they can get away with it because BA can’t really police it
I would imagine for varying reasons (inability to regulate the room temperature - cough cough Hannover cough - or losing two hours sleep due to the awesome and scientifically proven new EASA regs) that amongst the first wave coming into Heathrow in the morning probably a good half of the time the pilots have not had 8 hours sleep or anywhere near and that’s on a good day. Are we also liable then? What do you think would happen if we all en masse turned around to BA and said, sorry guys not rested in accordance with OMA we’re not operating your aircraft back to Heathrow this morning; accident could happen you see, old chap. But it’s fine for BA to play judge, jury and executioner when the boot is on the other foot isn’t it? I’ve had commutes where I’ve arrived at Heathrow gone ten o clock at night for a 06:00 report (naughty me) but I’ve been far more rested than I have been coming back from Helsinki with a two hour time change and a 03:00 alarm call. I know if I had an incident on the latter duty I’d be pointing the finger squarely back at the authorities for trying to make out that adequate rest has been provided in that scenario and I’m pretty sure I’d win in a court of law (were I alive to see it). Double standards to say the least.

But we’ve had this conversation before.

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Old 4th Dec 2018, 16:38
  #5451 (permalink)  
 
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Rex
Certainly very few long haul pilots can claim to have had 8 hours rest immediately prior to flying home. For example, on West coast USA trips, most people wake at about 3am or 4am local time, before reporting for the flight home somewhere between 3pm and 8pm local time. If they are lucky, they may have achieved 2 or 3 hours of sleep just prior to their wake up call.

However, I believe the rules require fully rested and acclimatised at time of report at base. To argue in court that you would not have achieved that downroute and so it is fine to do it before report at base is probably not winnable, because the rules are designed to take account of the lower likelihood of decent rest whilst in the different time zone. BA are probably cracking down on this because they are slowly recognising faitigue is becoming a serious issue, and they want to make sure they are fully covered in that court room should that fatigue related incident occur.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 16:48
  #5452 (permalink)  
 
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Or is it more to do with the fact that if fatigue is "managed" they can squeeze more and more out of pilots rather than their chances in court?
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 17:16
  #5453 (permalink)  
 
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Probably a bit of both.....

As GS has said they want to make sure they have their ducks in a row if there is a fatigue related incident.

There might well be gains in efficiency if it is known that management proactively “manage” / investigate the background to fatigue reports.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 17:26
  #5454 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
Student88, with my new balanced view unless you are still in the honeymoon period or are on long haul I doubt you can back up your statement. EZY, RYR......better in pay and rostering. (For my status at least)
Why did you go for the command when you did?
I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior.
Nobody forced you to go for a SH command.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 18:00
  #5455 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
To argue in court that you would not have achieved that downroute and so it is fine to do it before report at base is probably not winnable.


That’s not my argument. I’m just pointing out that BA and the regulator are holding you to standards that they themselves do not abide by. To state, as EASA do, that you are acclimatised if you go east by two time zones so you ought to be able to manage to get the same amount of rest/sleep as a result of that state of “acclimatisation” is clearly bullsh1t and can be demonstrably shown to be so. They’re setting you up to operate in an unrested state because nobody can skip forward two hours and get to sleep at the required time because your body hasn’t adjusted to that, same as it hasn’t adjusted when the alarm wakes you up at 03AM (5 o clock local) the next day. For the regulator to put so much emphasis on rest but at the same time you can effectively lose two hours of sleep and yet that’s not a problem, well that’s having your cake and eating it, it’s not science and there’s so many holes in it that it’s ripe for challenge.




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Old 4th Dec 2018, 18:12
  #5456 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Jumbo2. The rostering has and continues to get worse. The market has changed and the pay at BA has been left behind. Both of those changed since I took command.

Sometimes you you need to try something to really understand it. Command achieved, got the stripes and it really is not worth it. The pay could be doubled and it still would not be worth it. The rostering is really really hard. A few of us will certainly be taking a stripe off to go RHS LH.

May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command?
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 18:42
  #5457 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by student88 View Post
Fake news - not true.
Thread drift, but,
Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340.
Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!!
But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!!






Last edited by cessnapete; 4th Dec 2018 at 20:15.
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 19:45
  #5458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command?
of course you can; I'm in the top 25% Shorthaul by now and have a fair bit of bidding power but staying well clear of a command. The reason; the extra pay is not worth the sacrifice in lifestyle. With the time I've left in this career (over 35 years) why rush things?

I know you had been more then 5 years in BA when you went to the left but listening to junior FO's who are less then 2 years in, getting a command and then start complaining about the pay and lifestyle are beyond me and I really struggle to have any empathy for them. As a junior FO going for command (less then 5-8 years in) you might make 400 ponds more a month (because of less efficient lines) but you will get all the leftovers on your roster with plenty of TASS (BA has got the most transparent rostering system I've seen in any airline so it is easy to see what rosters junior P1's are getting). If they don't realise this before going for their command then they haven't done their homework or where foolishly blinded by the P1 status. The pay structure in BA hasn't changed (I'm pretty sure if you take the average pay of all SH P1's and compare that to other UK operators it isn't that far off) and neither did the rostering policy change in the last few years (until JSS now but we only know in 7 days how that is working out).

So with all the information available before one decides to bid for a command (nobody is forcing you to bid for a command anyway) there is no point of complaining about the T&C's afterwards is there?
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 20:15
  #5459 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Originally Posted by Jumbo2 View Post
of course you can; I'm in the top 25% Shorthaul by now and have a fair bit of bidding power but staying well clear of a command. The reason; the extra pay is not worth the sacrifice in lifestyle. With the time I've left in this career (over 35 years) why rush things?
We have to work until 75 now?! Please no....
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Old 4th Dec 2018, 20:43
  #5460 (permalink)  
 
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Smile

Jumbo2. Fair point about super junior commands after 2 years.

At 25% I guess you have been in about 5 years. The rostering has changed to EASA FTL’s and there have been a number of changes to bidline rules. That all makes a big difference but the crux of it has been we have been short of numbers. The pay issue is one which has come about because of the improvements in terms elsewhere in the industry. Rostering has always been bad when junior on any status but even guys who have seniority are working some pretty brutal lines.

The problem is very few people are even prepared to bid for a command. I admire the fact that you can make that choice. It seems daft that we have experienced guys like yourself who won’t take a command yet we need to delay courses of some guys so they have the minimum hours.

Easy fix, and yes it will never happen. Seniority as a FO based on DOJ. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command check. It’s the RYR way. And no it’s not a serious proposal so let’s not get into that.

Either way, fact RYR, EZY etc spend less time in uniform, they have better rostering and earn more.

Yes there are reasons I have not left and options at BA is one of them.

Fruitbat

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