Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:29
  #5461 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London
Age: 31
Posts: 38
If the 24h LH stopovers becomes a reality I’ll leave the company. Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs is a grim existence (granted not as grim as current situation SH 12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane and repeat) and not why I joined BA. I get the argument that a couple of days downroute somewhere nice gets ordinary after a while but the alternative would grant me zero job satisfaction. For a £2b profit company why can’t they just accept some hotel bills, look after crews wellbeing by a less fatiguing/more sensible roster by hiring adequate pilot numbers rather than just some well-being posters up in CRC. Another lb of flesh. That ‘recognition’ gala video nonsense that appeared in my inbox was vomit inducing, management seem to think if they just use the word ‘recognition’ in every other sentence that they are reacting to that ‘reality check’ employee survey.

It it could be a good place to work but the company is just out to squeeze everything from their employees. That’s the feeling I have as a ‘generation Cruz’ DEP after just 2.5yrs. Part time is the only way to survive a career here with your sanity and health. Sad as it just doesn’t have to be this way, a few tweaks and we could be the envy of every other airlines’ pilot workforce, as it stands BA is a cold, greedy and hideously corporate beast.
Paperplanes89 is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:30
  #5462 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 715
It may well be the tipping point for a great many people. If I’d have wanted to be worked to the bone, slipping 24 hours in Long Haul destinations I’d have joined Emirates. I know I’ll put in place an exit strategy to leave this place if it happens.
I can’t argue with any of that, I just don’t see the alternative employer out there who will attract droves of BA pilots. Our T&Cs will be under attack until the supply/demand ratio tips in our favour. BA need 300+ pilots next year according to the manpower boffins - they will have more than enough pilots applying for those positions. That’s our problem. It’s very difficult to enact meaningful (positive) changes to our working agreements under these circumstances.

It’s pretty obvious “Santa Klaus” is coming for LH, and we have a pay claim in progress, so watch this space.

I agree with the comments above though, BA really isn’t all that bad. There will be DEP offers onto the A350 next year for example - not many opportunities like that exist for UK based pilots.
BitMoreRightRudder is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:34
  #5463 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Home Counties
Age: 42
Posts: 485
Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs
We do a variety of ops in business aviation and the above is the most tiring.

You arrive at your hotel having been on duty for 12 hours, awake for 15 and you are tired. Do you go to sleep for 8-9 hours and then fail to get any more rest for the 15-16 hours before your next 12 hours duty .... its difficult to manage and impacts on safety as you approach the highest work load period at the end of your next 12 hours strapped in to a jet.

12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane
This is actually easier (although much less fun), you get to the hotel, eat dinner, go to sleep, get up, eat breakfast and report for duty ... at least this is safer but very boring and not the shiny dream of working in a legacy.

Best of luck in the ensuing negotiations
Globally Challenged is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 07:39
  #5464 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London
Age: 31
Posts: 38
RightRudder - agree DEP on A350 is awesome on paper, but bottom of the list, jss, and possibly a few hours downroute in (near?) future, max legal hrs, min legal rest, might get tiresome pretty quickly or just impossible to sustain a happy family/social/healthy lifestyle. I have no answers though, just bored/fed up on airport standby and opened up ppprune for first time in years. It’s probably not that bad...but fatigue makes everything worse and I’ve been feeling it for too long.

Last edited by Paperplanes89; 8th Dec 2018 at 07:56.
Paperplanes89 is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 08:19
  #5465 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: England
Posts: 88
All of the above sounds horribly fatigue inducing.. How seriously is this taken at BA? Until a raft of fatigue reports come in, with crew stuck down route then nothing will change will it.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.
Thegreenmachine is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:36
  #5466 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 861
Originally Posted by BitMoreRightRudder View Post
There will be DEP offers onto the A350 next year for example - not many opportunities like that exist for UK based pilots.
Which is absolutely disgusting in my opinion. The company are seriously trying to tell us thereís not enough internal bidders? I know thereís a lot of people still frozen but a lot of those guys have done four years slogging it out on Short Haul maybe it might be the right time to reward them for that? No itís time to slap them in the face yet again with more Long Haul DEP. Letís face it virtually nobody joins this company because they want to do Short Haul, itís the big selling point of BA and why the vast majority of us are here.

Iím sorry but the ďMaster Seniority List is the most important thing, youíll slot in ahead of them when you moveĒ argument just doesnít wash any more. When exactly are we going to get to move? I wanted to do Long Haul whilst I was relatively young. That sure ainít gonna happen any more.

Every Long Haul DEP (and thereís going to be a load of them this year by all accounts) removes a LH position that would have been available in one or two years. When guys ahead of us on the P2 Airbus status list canít move across to Long Haul we stagnate behind them and canít benefit from better rosters/bidding power etc. Long Haul DEP disadvantages everyone on the Airbus and I for one (and Iím not the only one by any stretch) resent it massively.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:46
  #5467 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 321
Surely with every aspect of the business under fire is it not time for the union to grow some balls and balance the power out a little? If you bow down and let them rear end you then you've only got yourselves to blame? Time for LH/SH/senior/junior to surely come together and make a stand. The "I'm alright Jack" issues at the top of the list has to be put to one side because everyone will have the sharks after their t&cs at some point in the future, the top needs the bottom's help and the bottom needs the top's help. Get with it before it's too late.
Reversethrustset is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:47
  #5468 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 687
Rex, donít worry, when you do eventually get to long haul, youíll realise all these years of thinking long haul is easy and itís only short haul taking the pain, was actually completely wrong and youíll wonder why on Earth youíve given all of these years to BA just to end up feeling fatigued and worthless, with no useful time at home and no useful time downroute.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 09:49
  #5469 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 734
Rexbanner ​​​​​​...I see where you’re coming from. You will merely join the masses of pilots ahead of you that have trodden the same path of resentment and disappointment in BA. As previously mentioned, this could be the best job in aviation if only it was run properly. I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA reps and the pilot workforce share the blame. Many of the changes don’t really affect reps that only fly once or twice a month, and the majority of pilots seem to be grateful to BA that they have a job and are unwilling to stick their necks out for anything. Lots of complaining but no action.
hunterboy is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:05
  #5470 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 687
I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA share the blame
BALPA need to lead the pilots. The problem is, the BACC is made up of pilots. They are not negotiators, nor do they have any idea of the concept of leading members and encouraging them to think as one unified workforce. Instead, they act as BA’s expectation management team, allowing repeated targeted attacks at various minority groups of the workforce. BA hammer our terms and conditions using this technique, and will continue to do so until the BACC realise that whilst the members are indeed the union, it is the BACC’s responsibility to galvanise them as one. Together we are strong, but as it is we are incredibly weak, and we might as well be a non-unionised workforce.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 10:55
  #5471 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
BALPA need to lead the pilots. The problem is, the BACC is made up of pilots. They are not negotiators, nor do they have any idea of the concept of leading members and encouraging them to think as one unified workforce. Instead, they act as BAís expectation management team, allowing repeated targeted attacks at various minority groups of the workforce. BA hammer our terms and conditions using this technique, and will continue to do so until the BACC realise that whilst the members are indeed the union, it is the BACCís responsibility to galvanise them as one. Together we are strong, but as it is we are incredibly weak, and we might as well be a non-unionised workforce.
Couldn't agree more! I've been saying for some time that we REALLY need to start targeting the things that divide us. The company would be fearful of a united workforce IMHO. When the classic divide and conquer is being countered and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude has gone we MIGHT stand a chance. Until then the company will continue to pick off various parts of work force off at will.

I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
2 Whites 2 Reds is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 11:13
  #5472 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by 2 Whites 2 Reds View Post
Couldn't agree more! I've been saying for some time that we REALLY need to start targeting the things that divide us. The company would be fearful of a united workforce IMHO. When the classic divide and conquer is being countered and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude has gone we MIGHT stand a chance. Until then the company will continue to pick off various parts of work force off at will.

I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
it will never happen because for Many ba pilots ď itís all about meĒ
king surf is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 11:32
  #5473 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 687
You canít just slam from reverse into forward gear. Getting everyone onto the same terms and conditions requires positive forward motion. I donít think you can expect to push back against BA quite so aggressively straight from the off. Thatís unrealistic in my opinion. However, first things first, we need to stop BA picking us off one by one. Once that has been achieved then we can work to reversing stuff. But even if no reversing happens, weíd be doing ourselves a massive favour just by stamping on the relentless chipping away.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 12:47
  #5474 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
You canít just slam from reverse into forward gear. Getting everyone onto the same terms and conditions requires positive forward motion. I donít think you can expect to push back against BA quite so aggressively straight from the off. Thatís unrealistic in my opinion. However, first things first, we need to stop BA picking us off one by one. Once that has been achieved then we can work to reversing stuff. But even if no reversing happens, weíd be doing ourselves a massive favour just by stamping on the relentless chipping away.
I had a conversation with a colleague at work while the pension stuff was ongoing. It was clear he really wasn't happy and I said we need to all stand together so would support his camp ie NAPS members and vote for industrial action if the time came and those affected felt it necessary. In almost the same sentence his reply was "well don't expect me to go on strike for BARP"....lovely!

Drastic action is required and it's not a case of being agressive towards BA. It's simply a matter of unifying the workforce. I agree it's hopeful to think such a thing could happen but in my humble opinion it's what's required. Until we're more unified the company will continue to pick us off one by one and the Me Me / I'm alright Jack's play right into their hands.

Just to add, this tactic isn't unique to BA. They just do it better than most.
2 Whites 2 Reds is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 14:14
  #5475 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 687
We need BALPA educating the community as to why supporting a cause which does not directly effect the individual is vital for the long term bigger picture of said individual. The problem is, that would bring us closer to strike action, and BALPA are scared stiff to find themselves in a battle with BA/IAG after what happened with openskies. It suits them to maintain the current status quo, and just watch our terms and conditions dwindle whilst keeping us under control for the company. That way they get a nice revenue stream with not too much hassle or risk. Our current union needs to be replaced with one that actually has a backbone.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 15:47
  #5476 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,861
The problem is, that would bring us closer to strike action, and BALPA are scared stiff to find themselves in a battle with BA/IAG after what happened with openskies
Yep...........
wiggy is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 14:26
  #5477 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,635
Originally Posted by Thegreenmachine View Post
All of the above sounds horribly fatigue inducing.. How seriously is this taken at BA? Until a raft of fatigue reports come in, with crew stuck down route then nothing will change will it.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.
The problem is if the Company has to look at their FRMS processes / trip builds etc then it's only fair that they look at crew members responsibilities also so as wiggy mentioned the C word comes into it (and that's not Christmas). So crew X on a crappy LAX 24hr layover don't operate as their too tired. So will BA look at the layover or what the crew got up to pre-flight - did they comply with crew members responsibilities before the outbound flight and downroute- with this in mind will crews report or keep quiet I wonder...
Yes there are some airlines out there with FRMS systems which are now mature and have been around for some time. Up until recently there was a well known quote "there is no fatigue at BA" - might have to get through the "yee who has the last laugh" before things move in the right direction for both BA and its crews.
Mr Angry from Purley is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 19:51
  #5478 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 667
I suspect if you asked a senior long haul FO what they had in common with a new FO at LGW, I suspect it might be easier for the list of differences to be highlighted rather than what they have in common within the context of their job. One doesn't need to look too far to see how there are numerous aspects of flying for BA that can create differences between colleagues. LHR vs LGW, Shorthaul vs Longhaul, Carmen vs Bidline (in a historical context of course) and BARP vs NAPS and that is coming from someone who doesn't work for the company, so I suspect more could be added to the list!! The more differences amongst colleagues, then the more challenging it has to be to create any solidarity in the workplace.

Reading some of the previous posts reminds me of an ex BA skipper who stepped into a Flight Ops management position at my last company after he retired. It was rather irksome to see how reluctant he was to engage with management and to address any issues that were passed up the food chain. After a few beverages down route one night, one of the cabin crew actually took him to task over his reluctance to communicate and help create change where it was needed. He admitted he had no desire to 'rock the boat' unless he himself was going to benefit as well. A carry-over from his BA days perhaps?

As I said earlier, I am not at BA but I do have a few friends still there, so I do read this thread from time to time out of interest. I left the UK to become an ex-pat aviator before EASA FTLs were brought in, so my knowledge of them is rather scant, to say the least. Regardless of that, any manager worth their salt will use their FTL framework as a guideline for enhancing crew productivity and I have seen this where I am now. It seems that no airline in IAG appears to be immune from this nowadays either. If 24 hours down route in the US west coast is legal, then it's a case of when rather than if it ever happens before your management consider tweaking with your rosters. Having crews away from home base longer than needed, seems to be a bÍte noire for management in any airline and it is a very easy way for them to reduce operating costs.

Some of you seem to have suggested that change will be forthcoming for trips that are changed to include shorter layovers, once a paper trail has started involving safety and fatigue reporting. I can assure you from first-hand experience that it is nothing short of a gargantuan task to revert roster practices, back to a level that reduces crew productivity. If a trip is deemed to be legal and if you raise your head above the parapet and shout fatigued and not fit to operate, then I would suggest that caution may be prudent, since BA may find it convenient to view the reporter as the problem rather than the timings of the trip itself. A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established. With the company seeming to wish to take a greater interest in how you all travel to work, then I suspect what may seem to be a rather invasive action, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Such actions could also act as a deterrent to those thinking of whistleblowing as well. If a trip is deemed to be legal in the eyes of the regulator, then it takes a lot of people to create a case for it to be deemed to be not fit for purpose.

From reading this thread it would seem that some BA aviators here, seem to have lost hope in your CC as well but this has to be your last line of defence against unfavourable change. If enough of you are disillusioned about your CC as some of the posters on this thread appear to be, then what would the outcome of a petition of 'No Confidence' in your CC be?

Good Luck and I shall be watching from the sidelines!
Emma Royds is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 23:31
  #5479 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 698
A VNC in the BACC?

How many friends did you say you have in BA?
4468 is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 06:43
  #5480 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,861
Originally Posted by Emma Royds View Post

A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established.
There’s no uncertainty about that, it is already a “given”. A manager at BA stated in print a few weeks back that in the event of a fatigue report/ASR being filed travel arrangements would be examined (and anecdotally it seems it is not just air travel that gets looked at, apparently even a < 90minute drive to/from home between short haul days has already raised comment).

Last edited by wiggy; 10th Dec 2018 at 07:55.
wiggy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.