Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 13th Dec 2018, 11:49
  #5581 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post


That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldnít have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining theyíre not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.
Canít find a valid rebuttal so just throw insults around. Itís very easy to call someone a moaner or negative but harder to actually refute what someone is saying. For the record I donít moan at work I get on with it, PPRuNe is an outlet to vent when Iím bored. Itís very easy not to read PPRuNe or, alternatively, just stick me on your ignore list.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 11:51
  #5582 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by Wireless View Post


mmm I donít know about the integrity of that statement. Your junior years arenít exactly the same are they?

Youíll never have been junior under JSS. A PP24ís early pay years will never be the same as a PP34ís early years. Just examples of why one generations early years arenít necessarily totally the same as the following generations junior years.


My junior years wonít have been the same as the older generations junior years, itís a fact, I knew it and had no complaints. You do your time at the bottom of whatever list it is you are bottom of and work your way up.
OBK! is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 11:54
  #5583 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post


Canít find a valid rebuttal so just throw insults around. Itís very easy to call someone a moaner or negative but harder to actually refute what someone is saying. For the record I donít moan at work I get on with it, PPRuNe is an outlet to vent when Iím bored. Itís very easy not to read PPRuNe or, alternatively, just stick me on your ignore list.
If youíre bored you must have time on your hands, do some overtime or go and have root canal or something. Youíve obviously spending too much time convincing your self how hard done by you are. Or trying to convince others at least.
OBK! is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 11:59
  #5584 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post


My junior years won’t have been the same as the older generations junior years, it’s a fact, I knew it and had no complaints. You do your time at the bottom of whatever list it is you are bottom of and work your way up.

I think you’ve missed the context of what I was saying.

I’m not disagreeing with the fact you start at the bottom. That in itself is quite simple. I was replying that citing one’s experience of being at the bottom will be the same as someone joiner years later is not a fact.

Was I actually moaning about this? No. I didn’t say anything along those lines.

Mmm. Rather than everyone falling out as a few posts above, I reckon it’s important to keep it basic. We need to stick together not squabble. There’s fantastic things about life at the “firm”. But equally it needs work to keep from going down hill as there’s already been a lot of changes. Nothing wrong with that I don’t think.
Wireless is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 12:02
  #5585 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 709
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post


If youíre bored you must have time on your hands, do some overtime or go and have root canal or something. Youíve obviously spending too much time convincing your self how hard done by you are. Or trying to convince others at least.
I commute, genius. Something that should be immediately obvious if youíve been reading as many of my posts as you seem to have judging by your butthurt reaction. Of course I have time on my hands.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 12:18
  #5586 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by Wireless View Post



I think youíve missed the context of what I was saying.

Iím not disagreeing with the fact you start at the bottom. That in itself is quite simple. I was replying that citing oneís experience of being at the bottom will be the same as someone joiner years later is not a fact.

Was I actually moaning about this? No. I didnít say anything along those lines.

Mmm. Rather than everyone falling out as a few posts above, I reckon itís important to keep it basic. We need to stick together not squabble. Thereís fantastic things about life at the ďfirmĒ. But equally it needs work to keep from going down hill as thereís already been a lot of changes. Nothing wrong with that I donít think.
I agree. Once we all understand BA is the long game. Too many times I hear of junior guys being hard done by and wanting more pay, less work, less seniority gradient because it suits them at that time. Pretty much all of us will spend less time being junior than senior so letís work together smartly towards bettering what weíll have to look forward to....

if if youíre joining BA, think about how many years youíll have here and where you want to be. No good coming if youíre not willing to stomach the first 5/6 years at least.
OBK! is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 12:20
  #5587 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post


That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldnít have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining theyíre not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.
You seem to be completely missing the points some are trying to make. Not everyone that is Junior in BA is a ďyouthĒ. The man up boy I had to live through it attitude really irritates me. I joined BA with 16 years worth of Airline flying behind me, not because I wanted to but because I had to, not everyone who joins BA does so out of a desperate desire to wear the hat. To be told all you previous experience and time has been completed wasted is a bitter pill to swallow. Remember BA are not doing us a favour giving us jobs, they asked us to join, to be told you are less important and hence rewarded less and expepected to live with s#it jut because you have worked less time BA is offensive to me.

If you join BA in your early 20s then maybe you can afford to waste 10 years of your life, but when you are 35 and have young children itís much more painful. Children only grow up once and missing out on their lives Is very painful to me, being told to ďsuck it upĒ or ďleaveĒ is not very helpful and in actual fact goes to speak of the toxic environment we work in. I for one donít care if I get weekends off when my children are 20!

People on here constantly compare what we do to other high skilled professions and certainty expected to be rewarded as one. So tell me when a Surgeon leaves a hospital doesnít he suddenly then become a junior doctor and is expected to work every weekend? Does a senior partner at a law firm have to start at the bottom on sub standard pay just because he goes to work at a new firm? Would love to see you tell those guys to ďsuck it upĒ.






Enzo999 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 12:36
  #5588 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by Enzo999 View Post


You seem to be completely missing the points some are trying to make. Not everyone that is Junior in BA is a “youth”. The man up boy I had to live through it attitude really irritates me. I joined BA with 16 years worth of Airline flying behind me, not because I wanted to but because I had to, not everyone who joins BA does so out of a desperate desire to wear the hat. To be told all you previous experience and time has been completed wasted is a bitter pill to swallow. Remember BA are not doing us a favour giving us jobs, they asked us to join, to be told you are less important and hence rewarded less and expepected to live with s#it jut because you have worked less time BA is offensive to me.

If you join BA in your early 20s then maybe you can afford to waste 10 years of your life, but when you are 35 and have young children it’s much more painful. Children only grow up once and missing out on their lives Is very painful to me, being told to “suck it up” or “leave” is not very helpful and in actual fact goes to speak of the toxic environment we work in. I for one don’t care if I get weekends off when my children are 20!

People on here constantly compare what we do to other high skilled professions and certainty expected to be rewarded as one. So tell me when a Surgeon leaves a hospital doesn’t he suddenly then become a junior doctor and is expected to work every weekend? Does a senior partner at a law firm have to start at the bottom on sub standard pay just because he goes to work at a new firm? Would love to see you tell those guys to “suck it up”.










The youth/junior was to separate the two, not put them in the same bracket.

Enzo if you find the seniority system offensive how is it you came to join? You did your research as to what to expect beforehand surely? Was it a case of getting in and then wanting to change it? What do you expect 16 years at another airline to actually give you in BA?

I wouldn’t compare that part to any other profession. But if it was the same and a senior surgeon made his own choice to leave and join again at the bottom....yes, your choice, live with it. It’s not the companies fault.
OBK! is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 12:56
  #5589 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post

The youth/junior was to separate the two, not put them in the same bracket.

Enzo if you find the seniority system offensive how is it you came to join? You did your research as to what to expect beforehand surely? Was it a case of getting in and then wanting to change it? What do you expect 16 years at another airline to actually give you in BA?

I wouldnít compare that part to any other profession. But if it was the same and a senior surgeon made his own choice to leave and join again at the bottom....yes, your choice, live with it. Itís not the companies fault.
What if that Surgeon had to leave because the hospital he was working at closed, would that still be his fault, would it still be fair enough that his personal life was destroyed? Anyway you nicely sum up the I am alright jack attitude that exists in BA. JSS, PP34, BARP etc etc etc all introduced by your beloved company all of which adversely effect junior guys, but hey itís not their fault itís mine for joining.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 13:31
  #5590 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 562
Enzo, I find myself wondering why you chose to join BA if you find a seniority system so offensive? I am not passing comment on whether such a system is good or bad, but you surely knew it was like this within BA? Why did you not choose to join a different airline where seniority isnít quite so important? It is akin to choosing to move to France but then finding it offensive that everyone speaks French.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 13:44
  #5591 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Uk
Age: 38
Posts: 379
OKB, unfortunately you do reflect the attitude of this company and it stinks.

Seniority has its place but it should not be used as a weapon or on anything which so fundamentally affects the day to day lives of any pilot.

I fly with with a lot of guys who have life experience, some have lots of flying experience and are here because of need rather than choice. Many of our junior pilots have come from other professions where they contributed so much more to the world than what they ever will do as a pilot and quite honestly some treat them like dirt.

The whole argument of i did my time does not stack up. The world has changed, we fly a lot more. Hell 15 years ago I could drive past Heathrow on the M25 at 15:00 on a Friday and not be stuck in a traffic jam. Some will be junior for a long time, others less so.

I am not saying and I donít think anyone else is saying that we should reinvent the wheel but the opportunity to change the gradient has been taken and it has only increased it. We should be looking to have a balanced reward for seniority but a acceptance of the needs for all. We are talking about pilots who are hiding stress, depression and family break downs because of the damage our rostering system does.

As enzo999 hinted not everyone chose to join and not everyone is afforded the luxury of seniority that you talk of.

Rex is a top bloke, or girl, I am never sure which so lay off and just try and understand a position other than your own.

bex88 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 14:06
  #5592 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 709
Iím never sure either Bex, Iíve just used the girlfriendís strawberry scented shampoo (itís glorious) and have started buying scented candles so itís getting ever more confusing! Iím sorry for taking it to the level of the playground but if someone comes after me personally in a direct and unprovoked attack then Iím going to respond. Iíd never deny Iím guilty of moaning but generally itís stuff which Iíve got every right to, company treating you like a pariah and targeting my lifestyle personally just for taking a 35 minute flight to work instead of driving an hour and a half on the motorway. Thatís the main thing. But seemingly all I did to get attacked was stand up for the junior guys by implying it ought to be more equitable, which it should. Nobody is saying you senior guys should start working every weekend again, but at least giving the junior one or two every once in a while might be nice. The fact that you consider such a thought abominable speaks volumes as Bex says.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 14:21
  #5593 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
sorry for taking it to the level of the playground but if someone comes after me personally in a direct and unprovoked attack then Iím going to respond
I donít think anyone was pointing the blame of that one on you mate
Wireless is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 14:28
  #5594 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 359
Originally Posted by bex88 View Post
Pickled. I am sure someone will be along shortly to remind you that it was your choice to take a command and you could have stayed in the RHS bla bla bla.

Pickled speaks volumes of our system. Someone who has been in BA for 20 plus years and still finds themselves junior and with worse rostering than in the past.
Similar position. Similar JSS outcome. When you seemingly become more junior, the goalposts have been moved based upon a career decision you may have made several years ago. Seriously considering life outside BA now. Just need to convince Mrs Cough that her life will be acceptable with me working abroad.

...not everyone chose to join...
Don’t be ridiculous. There’s no conscription into BA. Yes, some joined by default due to mergers (such as CFE or BMI) and decided to stay but no-one was forced.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 14:37
  #5595 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
. That’s the main thing. But seemingly all I did to get attacked was stand up for the junior guys by implying it ought to be more equitable, .
Thats an important thing. It’s quite common for seniors in industry (not just at BA) to vote out things that affect those behind them, creating a divided workforce. The Chickens do come home to roost eventually..

Becomes a real problem when firms start captilising and offering split deals.

Recruit a generation of juniors with B scales pensions, pay points and exposure to junior working on a roster system they didn’t vote for. Give it a while to cultivate a toxic “them and us” atmosphere fuelled by the same seniors who voted their changes telling juniors to shut their gobs, and it’s a breeding ground for disaster. For everyone.

Recruit enough juniors in with union votes and guess what they’ll be voting for at the next split deal. Everyone starts plodding down a few steps. I’ve seen it happen. It’s one of the oldest tricks in the industrial black art hand book.

Never, ever sell out terms for those joining after you to protect your own. It bites you back as a workforce. It’s hapoened so many times in industry.


Wireless is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 14:39
  #5596 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
Enzo, I find myself wondering why you chose to join BA if you find a seniority system so offensive? I am not passing comment on whether such a system is good or bad, but you surely knew it was like this within BA? Why did you not choose to join a different airline where seniority isnít quite so important? It is akin to choosing to move to France but then finding it offensive that everyone speaks French.
Well itís simple really, I needed a job that was not a contract position, my family are all very settled in the SE and I did not want to relocate them, I liked short haul flying so my options were very small and I naively thought how bad can it be.

Just for clarification itís not the seniority system per se I find offensive, I understand itís a nessecary evil. Itís the attitude it installs in others that their lives are somehow more important than mine, that my time and family are less valuable simply because I happened to join a company later.

The trouble is the seniorty system at BA is so deep routed and ingrained that it affects the very fabric of your life and itís almost impossible to understand until you live with it. There will be people on this formum reading this who will still join and in a years time you will be shouting at them with the same ďyou knew what it was like before you joinedĒ BS.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 14:44
  #5597 (permalink)  
NLP
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 34
Rosters: Seniority gradient definitely steepened with JSS (I was happy with mine but I dont mind working weekends).
Commuting: Is being monitored and pilots receive warnings for sensible commutes.
Fatigue: Is only the responsibility of the pilot, not the company.
Salary: Falls short of other flag carriers.
Brexit: Weak pound, not great spending it in Euro's

I've been positive up to now and have reccommended people to join (just check my old posts). Few friends are in the final stages of the assessments and I'm really not sure what to reccommend them anymore. After 2,5 years BA has finally broken my positive spirit.

If a better opportunity comes I might take it.

Last edited by NLP; 13th Dec 2018 at 17:55.
NLP is offline  
Old 13th Dec 2018, 15:32
  #5598 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 562
There will be people on this formum reading this who will still join and in a years time you will be shouting at them with the same “you knew what it was like before you joined” BS.
I am not shouting at anyone, and it is not BS, it is factually the way it is, for better or worse. The majority always wins, and since seniority is one system which is always going to benefit the majority, it is a near impossible thing to change. I will soon be right back down the bottom again in the left hand seat. I cannot be bitter about that though, because I can always choose not to do it.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2018, 15:53
  #5599 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Uk
Posts: 13
I only come on to PPRuNe to see if people are moaning about the same things I'm moaning about. But now people are moaning about the moaning; well I would like to be the first to moan about the people moaning about the people moaning.

Do I win £5?

PS being junior at BA is sh1t but eventually it fades away. But PLEASE tell me again how much better the old guys had it when you joined, can't hear that enough.
Ron Swanson is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2018, 23:16
  #5600 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Timba Hold
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by OBK! View Post

That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldnít have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining theyíre not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.

If youíre bored you must have time on your hands, do some overtime or go and have root canal or something. Youíve obviously spending too much time convincing your self how hard done by you are. Or trying to convince others at least.
Do some overtime? Maybe Rex has a life outside of BA One of the worst posts I've seen on this forum actually- and I've posted some pretty stupid things myself.

Of course being junior now is more difficult than before. The MOA (SH) has been torn to shreds, we work EASA FTLs and the company is constantly trying to squeeze more productivity. Were people flying 900/pa 10/15/20 years ago? JAR FTLs certainly more restrictive than EASA, pay was better (relative to PP34) and less 'efficient' rosters. We all join knowing we'll be junior etc- that doesn't mean a little sympathy/compassion sometimes might go a long way. If you are sat complaining that you had it just as bad as we do now why are you not a bit more understanding? Perhaps if the response wasn't 'I had to do it so now you do' the unity in BA might actually improve. The arrogance and total lack of compassion for some of your colleagues is really quite sad. No-one is asking you to give up all your 'hard-earned' weekends - rather that we pull together as a work force and gain back some of the ground BA pilots seem to have lost.

It won't be that long until PP34 are the majority - BARP are majority and those 'junior' to you will be the majority in the company. Shall we start lobbying for PP34 only pay deals? Enjoy being sat up on your senior perch... its a long way down.

Perhaps your polite request to 'leave aviation' to Rex could be considered by yourself.
MikeAlpha320 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.