Survey: Are you accepting their offer?

[ETOPS240]

Not to get caught up with the same old tired argument, but I can tell you for a fact that you are able to use HKPA as income regarding mortgage application.

[ChinaBeached]

ETOPs is correct. You can use the housing allowance for mortgage capacity calculations. Most reputable lending houses in HK are aware of the CX situation and how to make it work.

BUT!

What idiot of a financial advisor or applicant would not read the FINE PRINT of the HKPLA and housing allowance to see that both are taxable, hence the need to consider the net figure. But most importantly the housing allowance IS NOT factored to CPI and housing cost fluctuations which only seem to go in one direction: a massive 22% increase recently. So that $10k HKD per month, less (say) 15% tax since it is deemed "income" while charged against a mortgage, and then is worth 22% less (from the latest figure) from the year before. Let's multiple that loss in real terms over the length of a mortgage? That $36k you get after gaining a Cmd could / would more than likely be worth less than the original $10k you started with!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, you guys have really done your homework and see the BIG PICTURE and take into ALL logical considerations. We laugh and mock the idiots who fall for internet scams offering stupid investment opportunities yet when it comes to this iCadet sham you fail to do any resemblance of due diligence into an entire career-based decision. Oooo! But it's "FREE!!" If it's too good to be true? Oh, that doesn't apply here of course..... because CX have such a long & illustrious history of upfront, honest and moral dealings with the pilot body.

It's a scam and a slap in any professional pilot's face. Pure and simple.

[mach5]

Guys I am new 2oo this site , I had applied for cathay pacific cadet program in the month of may 2011 and just got an email stating that the selection process for your area has been completed and we wud call you for the next selection process. Anyone has any idea when is the next selection process

[ETOPS240]

Originally Posted by chinabeached

What idiot of a financial advisor or applicant would not read the FINE PRINT of the HKPLA and housing allowance to see that both are taxable, hence the need to consider the net figure.

Who said they didn't?

Rather than policing a forum that you have absolutely nothing to do with, why don't you bugger off and try to help your fellow American pilots pick up the pieces with their laughable 'legacy' packages.

I have nothing to do with the cadet programme, but unlike you, and the other broken records who I'm ashamed to call my colleagues, I realise that it is here to stay. It is better than what's out there for the vast, vast majority of pilots.

For Christ's sake, as a year one SO you make more than many US Regional captains. It takes many years to become a regional captain. Let's not forget that although the payscale at CX isn't what it was, it knocks the US carriers out of the water.

In Europe, there is nothing. Nothing, shy of buying a type and paying to work. Or, working for the great FlyBe for 24k. You pretend to know about the RAF pilots situation? That they aren't taking it because of the conditions? Absolute rubbish. I personally know one of them, and he knows pretty much all of them. Many of them aren't pursuing it, because they aren't pursuing civil aviation. Those that are, are flocking to the CX package. Why? Because there is NOTHING out there that comes close. As a former Officer in HM armed forces, I can assure you that given the conditions we serve(d) under, Ts & Cs would not be an issue to these ladies and gents.

You sound like an ignorant idiot, who thinks that your US way is the only way. The well trodden GA path doesn't work everywhere else. It's not a case of GA being too hard; GA barely exists in Europe.

While you pretend to know what's going on, it's easy to see that you don't. Please just sod off and leave others to it.

I'm sorry, but while I realise that it is a big step down from the B scale (which in turn was a large step down from A scale), all it has done is brought it to parity with other major world carriers.

Now, I know this may all read as something personal, and to an extent, it is. But, you're spouting drivel, on every CX thread. You don't belong here. You have no interest here? That's fine. Nobody has an interest in you and your opinions. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're a bitter, poisonous clown with nothing better to do than to put people off a career, based on untruths and what your got from 'AOA and GMO updates'.

Please. **** off.

To anyone considering it. Do your homework, obviously. When you decide that you can make it work, don't come one here. Why? Because there is CB, who is so bitter, he can't see straight, and about 3 other CX pilots, of which some post under several usernames. All they do is conspire and complain.

There are nearly 3000 pilots in CX. Each one that I've worked with has been an absolute joy. The job is great. The upgrade time to JFO will be under 3 years for a new joiner. Mark my words. 2 SO long haul is not happening. That again is rumour spouted by a handful of insecure wankers with vested interest.

As for money - anyone who's lived in a big City will be able to judge it. Can you do it on this package? Easily. Will it be potentially tough initially? Possibly, if you want to live close in. Don't worry about the package. It is on par with other huge international carriers, pretty much all of which take a decade or more's worth of experience to join.

My advice is not to worry about the money. A calculator and a few minutes will answer your questions on that. Just like any other job. I advise wannabes to focus their research efforts on the cultural/non financial aspects of living in HK. You'll be fine for cash. But, you're moving to another country/continent, where lifestyle and culture will likely be vastly different to what you're used to. People are different. Food is different. Mentality is different. Weather is different. Protocol is different. Shopping is different. Everything is different. Unless you want to live in DB. Which you don't.

These are the things that you need to be considering. I personally love it. I'm extremely fond of HK. I've lived all over the world, but certainly consider HK home. That said, I did my research. I visited several times, and spoke to a huge number of people. I embrace the place for what it is, not what I think it should be. I've learnt the language, I eat what they eat. I think you get my picture. My point being that no amount of money will make you enjoy your life here, if you don't like HK. That is the dealbreaker folks.

[404 Titan]

ETOPS240

2 SO long haul is not happening. That again is rumour spouted by a handful of insecure wankers with vested interest.

I have heard that from at least three sources now on the third floor, including at a fleet forum. The company realise that three crew, i.e. 2 x FO and 1 x Capt having to spend 48 hours down route costs the company more than 2 x SO, 1 x FO and 1 x Capt only having to spend 24 hours down route. Remember 3 man ULH under the new CAD 371 must be crewed with 2 x FO’s and 1 x Capt. SO’s aren’t permitted. All the company is saving is the cheapest person on the flight deck but losing three days productivity for the three crew and having to pay for six hotel nights and allowances rather than four. Having said all that though, I originally thought that the companies desire to introduce a P1X rating was to get around the five year life of a P2X rating and this is still probably part of the reason. The main reason is that the company are seriously considering Cruise FO’s to replace SO’s, i.e. exactly the same as an SO i.e. cruise only, COS etc except they will be the second “FO” on three man ULH. The requirement for P1 rated FO’s is still greatly reduced though hence upgrade to full FO will blow out but the productivity aspect is greatly, (not totally) alleviated. My personal opinion after running the sums is that the numbers still don’t quite stack up for three man ULH, hence the companies application to the CAD to have a FTLS variation for a 24 hour layover instead of 48 hours for three crew ULH. The company must prove though to the CAD that the change is as safe regarding fatigue as a 48 hour rest, something I think they will struggle to prove as the evidence is overwhelming against it.

The upgrade time to JFO will be under 3 years for a new joiner. Mark my words.

I notice you are an SO here and I can understand your desire to see upgrade times reduce. The fact of the matter is that since the introduction of SO’s in the early 90’s with the exception of the first few batch’s of contracted SO’s, upgrade times as a whole have only got worse. Even during times of rapid expansion the times only briefly came down by about six months but that was it. With the companies planned crewing compliment the requirement for P1 rated FO’s irrespective of whether we have 3 or 4 crew ULH, will be greatly reduced even with the planned expansion over the next 10 years.

By the way I have no problem with iCads per say. All I want is to see them on the same COS as you and I.

[ChinaBeached]

Whoaa! Struck yet a another nerve ETOPS?

You defend your position as do I defend mine. Plain and simple. And just like the many, many iCadets wannabe's and present day sell-outs you deem all others who speak out against and bring up real facts like the housing not being CPI factored, the costs of living, the P2X rating, the year in, year out increases in housing costs.... If the argument doesn't suit YOUR agenda then we should all "p!ss off" and leave you to your self indulgent sold out rubbery spine? So half truths are OK, but daring to elaborate on the full facts is not? How dare I support you that the HKPLA and housing allowance is usable toward a mortgage, and then go and add the truths about the real value of it owing to the real facts of the contract and HK housing costs!!!

Those MANY of us who argue against have an "agenda" and are "wankers" as such? Do YOU not have an agenda in your argument then? If so, that makes you a w@anker as defined by yourself. It's called inductive reasoning. Look it up.

And you honestly think that there are only a few here who disagree with what you and the others have done to the job at CX, and / or you endorse? Open your childish and pathetic eyes to the other forums and threads. I know, I know.... too hard!

Rather than policing a forum

And then what do you call your post?

In Europe, there is nothing. Nothing, shy of buying a type and paying to work. Or, working for the great FlyBe for 24k.

Nothing? Absolutely NOTHING but for pay-for-rating-and hours jobs? And you dare think CX are not getting the iCadets to pay for their own rating, etc via the HUGE loss in remuneration and bond?? Simple maths of what is was and what it is, use the difference and see if that is more or less what an endorsement costs at the many facilities around the world. A320 or 73NG endorsements can be gotten for $10-12k, and 777 or 330 for not much more... "IF" one chooses to do some research. (Ooops! Dirty word!!). CX have made that money back many times over via the reduced T's & C's in this iCadet package.

There are jobs but because of this illustrious iCadet package you say they're all dried up in the wavering of CX's management pen that created the iCadet package? And what did so many, many THOUSANDS of pilots do before the iCadet offer? Oh, I forgot. There was no world before it. There are jobs out there. MANY, MANY jobs out there. Some airlines require at least 500 hrs TT for a RHS in an A320 or 73NG, but a majority of other jet jobs more: from 1000-1500hrs TT. Even CX's pre-iCadet minimums were 1000 hrs TT for DESO!!!!!!! So, a potential 18 months to 2 years of "too hard" hour building could've gained an applicant respect and the same remuneration with their CX colleagues. That's a long time considering the amount of "CX hasn't responded to my application and it's been THREE WEEKS!! What will I do??!! Who can I email??!!"

And, building hours in the RHS of a jet earning anywhere from $6-12k USD a month, tax free (depending on the contract). Yet you still scream iCadet SO at CX is the best deal going. It shows your utter lack of research.

I have several colleagues who managed to build their time in the UK and Europe as instructors, flying across the ditch in light twins, doing charter work, and some landed jobs very quickly into the RHS of jets. So all those other THOUSANDS of pilots from the UK and Europe were full of crap about ever working in these "non existant" jobs? Some even had the balls to go overseas to pursue their career and build their hours. (I know, I know.... too hard). Well in your eyes, of course! And why should they when there is a cheaper, nastier and quicker way to do it; all at the expense of self worth, the airline and industry.

And to highlight your still imbecilic method of being able to argue from fact, you call me a yank. Shows your pathetic ability to read all before shooting your mouth off. IDIOT.

why don't you bugger off and try to help your fellow American pilots pick up the pieces with their laughable 'legacy' packages.

Because I'm not one you ignorant fool who has thus proven your incapability of doing the most minuscule of background reading before jumping in head first. I suppose you only read the first few pages of your FCOM(s) & not bother with the other few hundred pages because the rest of them & the FCTM, SOPs, FPPM, etc, etc must all be the same.....

And for the record, you go sprouting crap about the US and the legacy carrier volatility and scene there then you could be in for big trouble at any number of airline bars around the globe. In relation to CX, what's worse? Seeing how a legacy carier can screw over it's pilots due an unscrupulous, greedy and immoral management, as well as a union sitting on the sidelines allowing it all to happen? Or not learning from history and watching it unfold right before your own eyes right now? (Gotta remove that head from the sand first). History repeats when you allow it to.

And for the record "buggering" was something your nation was privy to, especially in the public school system. (Urban Dictionary: bugger)

....I'm ashamed to call my colleagues,

You don't need me to tell you the feeling is vastly in the majority of the way CX pilots and the entire industry feel about the likes of you.

You pretend to know about the RAF pilots situation?

Find BUT ONE of my posts stating that I EVER mentioned that. That makes you a liar.

based on untruths and what your got from 'AOA and GMO updates'.

Really? Find BUT ONE post of mine sprouting an "untruth" where I have used the AOA / GMA / DFO updates as my source. Again: liar. Or should we look at your great "bugger" of a hero from the DFO's latest update where it states "The cadet programme continues to be an important recruitment stream but one which also fulfills our goal of providing the opportunity for young people in Hong Kong to engage in aviation." The DFO claims it's for "young people in HK" yet "buggered" out it seems to any unsuspecting kid clueless as to the real affects on the industry, airline or career. Read your own damn hero's updates and use some of your own damn common sense. Difficult since you've been proven unable to.

about 3 other CX pilots, of which some post under several usernames

No, not me. Clutching at straws here aren't we? But if you try to make such ignorant accusation enlighten us with the logic you draw this conclusion from. Or is it more a case that ANYONE who has a differing opinion to you must be a one off? Again, try to read the many other threads. First pull your head from your "buggered" ar$e as not all is written on the Wannabe forums. By far the pilots with experience of CX and the industry are in a huge majority against this rubbish you defend so vehemently. Go and look at the MANY people offering their reasons and experience to argue against it!! Or of course you'll claim they are all one in the same person. Idiot. Instead the pilots you support tell anyone with experience to "p!ss off and retire". Admirable. Classy. Respectful.

My advice is not to worry about the money.

Such marvelous advice!!! Did you not run Lehman Bros in a previous career? After all, who needs money when there's a big shiny jet involved?

So ETOPS.... Answer this: Is the iCadet housing allowance factored to CPI pressures? YES or NO?

If NO, will the net or real value of the monthly allowance be worth LESS if the property valuations in HK rise due such CPI influences? YES or NO?

If the real value of the allowance is seen to decrease does this make for BETTER or WORSE living standards for the lessee or mortgage owner?

Is the CX CPP / iCadet a GOOD THING for the pilot body, the airline and industry as a whole or a BAD THING?

Have standards been RAISED or LOWERED?

After all, this was the basic premise of the discussion until you got on your "buggered" high horse to sprout lies in order to discredit me, ill-gotten conclusions in defense of a package that has raped the pilots T&C's at CX and drawn a further sword into the back of the industry as a whole. "Oh!! But the money is better than doing other things!!? Sounds like the exact same argument a hooker uses.

You are happy to sprout your loud voice yet unwilling to allow anyone else an opinion that differs from your self-sanctifying agenda. Where my facts have been wrong I have happily & readily accepted them. As yet, your unconscionable attack offers nothing to warrant that.

Like 404Titan: I have no problem with iCadets as such. In fact the complete opposite. My entire argument is against the severe detriment to pilot and industry T&C's. CX are using the iCadet scheme for a money grab: nothing more, nothing less: all in a time of record profits. In the same voice it is disturbing and insulting to see the quality of applicant the iCadetship seems to attract based on their posts here on pprune alone. I trust the CX system weeds that rubbish out. The last bone of contention is the argument defending their decision: it's too hard anywhere else / there are NO other jobs / the money is great compared to anything else / the training is free & without chains / what does an SO actually do....and so on, and so on, and so on.

[q400driver]

Hey Chinabeached.....good points but....
http://images4.cpcache.com/product_z...quare-true.jpg

[ChinaBeached]

Eloquent and concise!

But what other opinion could you possibly expect from a guy chasing the race to the bottom to be an iCadet....? You seem to have the same capacity to research before mouthing off as the last attacker, judging from your recent and previous posts:

26 June, 2011

I'm not too familiar with the old working conditions at Cathay, would someone be able to compare current and past conditions in terms of salary, hourly pay, housing, etc.

Been answered countless times before but you couldn't be bothered to a) research your own facts from a credible source, and b) too lazy and unprofessional to review the past answers to the exact same question.

For a QR SO position:

Where are the initial interviews and do you have to pay for your way over? (From Canada)

Genius. Ask a "RUMOUR" network!! Of course to call QR themselves would be way too logical. After all, they may only offer you cold hard facts. Rumours are best served when looking for a career.

9 May, 2011:

1.) On top of regular salary, what are the per diems, hourly flight pay, overnight pay, and 13th month salary??
2.) New hires on the cadet/SO, what routes are they mainly flying??
3.) If one was to enter the 12-week transition training, does that still involve training on a single engine piston aircraft??
4.) Can anyone provide housing links in HKG??

Same reply as the pathetic quest for cold hard facts as per the QR SO position. At the VERY least try googling the "apartments to rent Hong Kong" or call CX HR department instead. Just a suggestion.

For a guy with a supposed 3400 hrs TT (no jet, Q400 apparently) you are sure out-played by the many kids out there with zero. But by far the most pathetic thing about you is that you actually (apparently) have more than enough hours for a DEFO position at many airlines in Asia where you would earn substantially more money. You just seem to prefer a CX iCadet SO position and help lower the credibility of the airline and profession.

And so on, and so on..... Shear genius. Thanks for putting me in my place! But since we're about using pretty quotes, try this one from Mark Twain:
“It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”

PS: Double check the status of that nose gear before landing that Q400.....

[ETOPS240]

Don't worry about ChinaBeached. His life seems to revolve around coming on here and blowing a head gasket. He knows very little about CX, has zero to do with CX, and is too bitter to see straight. You'd do well to put him in your ignore list, that way his repetitive drivel won't appear on your screen.

[ChinaBeached]

ETOPS is RIGHT! If you don't like another's point of view you best not to listen to it. It worked for General Custard!

Still you are incapable about answering the simple questions I asked you. Of course! Because you choose to "ignore" those opinions not falling into your shot glass of required knowledge and information.

But at last he did some tiny bit of reading: I do not work for CX. Never said I did and in fact have stated it MANY times.

But do know a lot about CX. See I "researched" before asking any STUPID and IGNORANT questions on a RUMOUR network before and during the time I applied for the DESO job. And if "seeing straight" requires a person to crap on his own colleagues, own self worth and industry as a whole then I'm a blind man in your opinion: and proud to be. Integrity isn't for sale to the lowest bidder. Others' it seems is, only if the price is low enough.

You call me "bitter"? When you see all that you worked for and sacrificed flushed down the toilet for petty & immoral greed by the same airline you chased since day 1 and the jobs go to "txt" typing illiterates and ignorant fools unable to research or study basic information or material about the job they are so "passionate" about, then you may be too. On the other hand, I made my choice and I sleep VERY well at night knowing that I did not detract from the industry I am so passionate about and work so hard in. My choice and that is something I am FAR from bitter about. I don't expect the likes of you to ever understand.

I know what my profession is worth and refused the offer (twice) to join the likes of this race to the bottom. On the other hand the likes of ETOPS and other wannabe's are desperately jumping in head first: ignorant and naive at best. Your life. Your conscience.

"Daddy, how did you get into CX?"
'See son/daughter, they lowered the entry requirements to zero experience and reduced the salary by around 60%. Many previous applicants turned down the offer or stopped applying completely. Therefore the likes of me qualified. I do the same job but for up to 60% less. Be proud of your old man!"

Such pride.....

[Dangerman12]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[hihi]

All CB is good for is baiting. Like a good engine, it doesn't take much to get him started, and like good finance, a small investment guarantees a large return


By now i think that most people can see that he has nothing useful or even factual to add about anything regarding CX. He himself has admitted to having a massive chip on his shoulder. He has read John Warham's 49'ers and now considers himself a martyr. Let him rant, it only erodes what little credibility he has left.


Thanks for the information regarding the icad scheme, ETOPS240. It is encouraging to read some positive facts from somebody in the know.

[ChinaBeached]

Ha! ETOPS you plonker! All the while I thought you had changed tact to ignore me! What a sucker!!

And yet again, you're an IDIOT. I did my reading on you and just like whorewhore here I see you also have a failure to COMPREHEND. Find BUT ONE statement from me where I mention you as an iCadet. If you had the intelligence to read you'd see I wrote those like you who ENDORSE it!

For the slower amongst us, from my post ETOPS is referring to:

And you honestly think that there are only a few here who disagree with what you and the others have done to the job at CX, and / or you endorse?

Doing vs endorsing..... Tricky one that, eh? If anything that makes you worse. There you are high and mighty on your pay packet encouraging others to do the same job for around 60% less.

Who's the cock? Read, comprehend, THINK you idiot! Load brain before shooting off mouth. Try it.

Most importantly, get a spine.

And whorewhore, welcome back! I see you like the new name! So much so you've changed your status location from "selling out" to "whorewhore". Great. Are you too ashamed now to strut with that sell-out status? After all it was and is your self proclaimed badge of pride since your first ever post.

Nothing FACTUAL? Odd that neither you, your new found bed-pals ETOPS or Q400 have as yet been able to discredit one thing I have mentioned as anything but FACT. You each choose to play the person rather than the ball. One guy with the intelligence to correct me where I've been wrong is VoiceOfReason. At least this guy offers an intelligence rebuttal via facts, and it was appreciated.

What cracks me up is all the time you spend here as opposed to studying like a man possessed for this iCadet interview. The more you can get suckered into debate here (lose term, more of a comic delivery from you) then the less study you do. Then again, I'm sure I am assuming too much already - the study and research bit, not the selling out.

[ETOPS240]

Originally Posted by ChinaBeached

If you had the intelligence to read you'd see I a wrote those like you who ENDORSE it!

Sorry, what?

If you had the intelligence to write coherently, that would aid me no end in reading your drivel.

Do I feel the new scheme will put my current conditions under threat eventually? Hell yes.

Is it a surprise? No. Absolutely not. When I joined, I did so with a plan to make the most of it. CX has a basic payscale that rivals British Airways and the other leading employers (that don't require a specific passport) with a very kind housing benefit on top.

A simple supply & demand peep shows that there was/is absolutely no way whatsoever that those conditions would last.

I've done everything in my power to make the best of it. Piled up equity for free, saved, lived sensibly etc. in order to prepare for the inevitable. Why? To prepare myself for the inevitable incoming reality of supply and demand.

Will it be a hard pill to swallow, if my T's and C's are eroded? Somewhat yes. But, despite your typical bitching pilot workforce, and their narrow view, there is a great big world of economics out there.

So, do I endorse it the cadet programme? Selfishly, no. Realistically, yes, I have little option.

Will it be tough financially as an SO? Yes, if you want to live in the thick of it. That is a privilege, not a right of passage. So, you pay for it. For everything else, you learn where to shop, and what to spend your money on. Rent aside, I live more cheaply and save more money than I have in any big city I've lived in (NYC, London, Dubai). I don't need 2 cars and 2 insurance policies for a start. There are countless other examples in my financial life where a saving has offset an increase for a product or service. Here, you can get by on as much or as little as you like. That is the absolute honest truth.

So, back to accepting why there are 30,000+applications for the programme:

It is a stable career, on wonderful aircraft, with wonderful people, and dollar for dollar, it pays like a legacy carrier. Not a legacy carrier plus big housing allowance. Just a legacy carrier. You're based in an incredible city (my opininon).

It is difficult to beat as a young wannabe. Let's take the US as an example. 2 years instructing, 15k PA. 5 years regional FO, 20-35k, 3+years regional commander, 50-75k. Back to the bottom of the seniority list; year one at a US legacy, 40k. Then the package starts coming close to what a year one cadet SO makes, though only in basic pay. Retirement contributions and medical still don't come close.

That is a very real timeline. Some have taken less time, some more. Some never made it to the big carriers. This does not factor in the huge likelihood of redundancy along the way. Anybody want to place bets on the aftermath of the debt ceiling crisis (be it delaying the inevitable or allowing the walls to crumble now)?

By this stage, the guy who joined CX on local terms is 12 years in. A senior FO, with a net take-home of around 3 times his US counterpart.

Sure, this gap will start to decrease, but it doesn't take a politician to spin the figures in favour of the CX career.

Financially, a career at CX for a cadet is still among the worlds best. Fact.

That is why I and my colleagues have to get to grips with it. That's why the applicants are there.

Incidentally, due to the ferocious competition, the standard of cadet product is still very high. Only the likes of idiots like CB will try to hold CX responsible for illiterate clowns who post on an open internet forum. They sadly exist on forums for wannabe doctors, lawyers and investment bankers.

Caveat: as I have mentioned - the far bigger issue is whether you are made for Hong Kong. Not whether you can balance your bottom line.

[ChinaBeached]

At last! ETOPS brings to the discussion some opinions that are presentable and with some form of logical delivery! All be it a severely DEFEATIST attitude.

Here dog, come and get kicked.... here dog, come and get kicked.... here dog, come and get kicked.... Even a damn dog knows when enough is enough and bites back.

No. There is no shortage of pilots. Just a shortage of reputable airlines paying for the experience. Pay bananas, get monkeys. Airlines like QR, EK, EY and the many Asian carriers are snapping up pilots with >4000 hrs and jet time as much as they can. CX are doing the opposite. That hole will leave CX in trouble soon: as per the AOA update about 2 weeks ago. Read it.

Blame CX for the rubbish that is attracted to the package, as evident on these forums? Hell yeah. Who else to blame? Simply go back to these forums pre iCadet and not the utterly different tone of questions and answers, least of literacy capabilities.

[hihi]

What cracks me up is all the time you spend here as opposed to studying like a man possessed for this iCadet interview. The more you can get suckered into debate here (lose term, more of a comic delivery from you) then the less study you do. Then again, I'm sure I am assuming too much already - the study and research bit, not the selling out.

Interesting point of view.

I thought you had an airline job that you enjoy? Yet you still find the time to come here (even during your breaks it would seem) to play silly buggers with me. Who is leading whom CB? For every small deposit i make, i get a sizable return in drivel. Just browsing through other threads, i can see you even find the time to dig up my quotes

In all honesty though, i do think people would be more receptive to what you have to say if you were less quick to go throwing insults. If anything brings down the tone of this forum, it is the name calling.

[ETOPS240]

CB.

The AOA are not exactly objective though, are they. They are, by design, biased and one-sided. As well they should be. I have to say that their view on this more extreme than mine.

QF EK et al are snapping up folks left right and centre, because they are expanding at a comical, unsustainable rate. No other reason. Cx are not. They are conservative by comparison.

If they ever run short, and they've exhausted the qualified SO pool, and it looks like in the mid-term, they might, they will have a short spree of hiring FOs. Will they be on DEFO terms? Who knows. Not unless they supply says they have to be.

Either way, DE status and benefits are, in the long term, on their way out of CX. That's not defeatist, you prat, that's realistic. Just like A-scale, B will die. Just like the millionaire pilots.

Markets always swing to sustainability. It's not magic doing it, and it's not management, it's market elasticity.

You tell my why John Slosar would continue to pay over the odds for a huge percentage of his overheads? What the hell would anyone 'wasting money' tell shareholders?

A-scale existed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to HK. That was no longer needed. B scale was needed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to Hong Kong. That is no longer needed. It may be in the interim, but it isn't now.

Now, icadet package is what is needed. I'm sure now you'll cast a million aspersions on their training, something you know nothing about. Just rest assured that these guys come out of Adelaide knowing a ****e-sight more about their craft than your typical US major pilot. They may not have the experience, they'll get that here. They'll have some of the worlds best trainers training them, and some of the most robust SOPs and practices anywhere to be found.

That, in my view, is worth more in a jumbo, than your experience as an air taxi pilot in Western Australia.

[ChinaBeached]

Well done ETOPS. You're learning to argue with some substance. Almost until you threw in the "you prat" bit....

Now, a few things:

A-scale existed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to HK. That was no longer needed. B scale was needed, because that was the going rate to get someone suitably trained to move to Hong Kong. That is no longer needed.

Key words "no longer needed". You are 100% right. But this comes as a trade off. As per your own AOA stats, the number of applicants for the shorter courses (ie with experience) has greatly reduced as opposed to the full course which is greatly over subscribed (zero to very little experience). The trade off is the experience and quality of the applicant. Reduce the T&C's and keep the minimums the same as they previously were and we'll see how many apply.

Now, icadet package is what is needed.

Justify this please. CX have just made and are on course to make record profits yet see the need to LOWER remuneration? So is this "needed" or is just a further money grab?

I'm sure now you'll cast a million aspersions on their training, something you know nothing about.

Really? I know "nothing"? How about the FACT that CX have reduced the transition sim training by 1/3?

Speak to many CX pilots and ask if CX is renown as a "Training Airline" or merely a "Checking Airline". That's a matter of opinion but is very widely thought of.

Just rest assured that these guys come out of Adelaide knowing a ****e-sight more about their craft than your typical US major pilot.

Very bold statement. Care to elaborate? Support it with FACTS? Or is it wishful thinking? I have had the pleasure of flying with such airmen who would leave most speculators (as you are doing now) embarrassed in their knowledge, experience and skill.

My experience taught me command decision making skills outside of a circuit or x-country solo navex, how to stand on my own two feet to go out and get a job, keep it and earn the next rung on the ladder, to learn from my mistakes (the many that nearly killed me and the ones that worked out), to know when and how to stand up to my boss, to know when to say "no" and how to find a way if one existed, to learn self discipline and study techniques to further my aspirations, to know the rules and regs inside and out to ensure I got the job done as needed, and finally to EARN the right to apply for the privilege that used to be CX. All the multi choice exams on an aircraft systems test cannot teach that. Book smarts, nothing more.

As I've said before: Knowledge and passion without application and experience is useless.

If you wish an educated debate in which we can agree to disagree without the attacks (form both sides) then PM me. Others have, and it's been an interesting discussion and one that quite often we've had different views.

Whorewhore....I do have an airline job that I thoroughly enjoy. Did I ever state anything other? I have earned the job I do and can use the time in between flights as I please. The study I keep doing is by professional need and choice as and when I choose. Receptive to what I say? Kid, I could sugar coat the facts as best as possible but the fact remains that by self admission you don't give a damn about your colleagues or the industry, you are looking out for yourself and to hell with the consequences. And that will get under the skin of most professional airline pilots. Still not one of you attacking me have had the balls to refute anything but to come back with personal attacks. Personal with you whorewhore? Hell yeah. You crap on all that most airline pilots stand for and defend. No apologies.

[hihi]

What do balls have to do with anything? You hide behind an alias and sling insults on an internet forum board, yet you talk about balls?

Balls would be slinging those same insults in person, and i'd bet my life you wouldn't have the balls to do it then.

[ChinaBeached]

Wrong. I would and down to my last breath. And, damn! To be given the chance..... Actually if and when I do meet the likes of you at a random crew bar around the globe I'd be happy to simply walk away. I would not waste my time.

And the name on your birth certificate is "hihi" ("whorewhore")? Or are you a hypocrite for stating "You hide behind an alias...." ??

No, you don't have the balls to stand up and argue with facts, only your self proclaimed sell-out nature is the entire backbone for your opinions. You said it, I'm merely repeating it.

Go on the tough guy. Publicise your real name in your next post and see how that works for you. Put up or shut up. Sell-out.