More madness at BA.
Guest
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It happen lots at BA and there is part of the problem. I have seen this exact situation and my wife was left down the back.
Cabin Crew abuse the system and if they are corrected by pilots the s**t hits the fan and no support from pilot managers. But we should correct them.
How many times have we seen this abuse in the last 10 years? (Lots of times I'm aware of).
So it is some thing that must be worked on and moves are a foot to sort this out (eg. pilot input to csd framework course) but it will take time and the pilot managers must do their bit on a daily basis.
By the way 'The BA rules' only give station managers the ability to upgrade and not csd/pursers. But cabin crew are told to do what ever they want by their managers. Captains can move any one at any time in their own legal right. If any one knows different please correct me, I would like to know.
edited for spelling.
[This message has been edited by The Zombie (edited 01 May 2001).]
Cabin Crew abuse the system and if they are corrected by pilots the s**t hits the fan and no support from pilot managers. But we should correct them.
How many times have we seen this abuse in the last 10 years? (Lots of times I'm aware of).
So it is some thing that must be worked on and moves are a foot to sort this out (eg. pilot input to csd framework course) but it will take time and the pilot managers must do their bit on a daily basis.
By the way 'The BA rules' only give station managers the ability to upgrade and not csd/pursers. But cabin crew are told to do what ever they want by their managers. Captains can move any one at any time in their own legal right. If any one knows different please correct me, I would like to know.
edited for spelling.
[This message has been edited by The Zombie (edited 01 May 2001).]
Guest
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Okay, thinalbert - have it your way.
I note from your profile that you are ex-military. No doubt you're well used to people obeying your every word. But of course, that couldn't affect your views at all, could it?
Not sure why you thing that my experience doesn't qualify me to hold an opinion on team management...
I note from your profile that you are ex-military. No doubt you're well used to people obeying your every word. But of course, that couldn't affect your views at all, could it?
Not sure why you thing that my experience doesn't qualify me to hold an opinion on team management...
Guest
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A little change of tack again.
I have only had time to read a few of the comments above but some have been very constructive, others maybe not.
I work for the airline that recommends blankets as a way around the crouch strap problem. There has slowly been an increase in the feeling of animosity between CC and flight deck recently. Please note that these are MY feelings on the subject right or wrong.
Part of the problem lies with the more senior CC who have recently elevated themselves above the whole crew, including the pilots, by wearing New Silver name badges. It screams “ I am in charge”, the Captain is considered, by a lot of the Junior CC, as someone behind the “door” that helps the CSD do their job.
On a recent trip the Captain I flew with was a little distressed to hear the closing comment of one CC member to the passengers as they taxied to stand. “ on behalf of the Cabin Crew and most importantly your Cabin Service Director we would like to thank you for flying etc”
The captain wasn’t even mentioned. Very disrespectful.
Then when we have to have a CC member on the flight deck we have to spoon-feed them through how the seat works. Really I mean this is surely part of their SEP. They cannot even work out how to put the jump seat down.
On a recent CSD training course an open question was put to room of 30 potential CSD’s. They were asked how they perceived the order of command on the aircraft. 80% were certain that it went Captain, CSD then F/O. When asked if they were sure, they swore blind that this is how the chain of command went. Well on the few occasions that things have started to go wrong in flight and serious decisions had to be made they found it very easy to look to the front for answers.
The flight deck make decisions everyday that have drastic effects for all on board but the thought processes, the options, the reasons and the stress never passes the cockpit door, only the safe and smooth out come is felt down the back. Sure enough if we do a heavy landing everyone becomes an expert and tells you so, I think I should now start to become an expert on why my breakfast has been cooking for nearly two hours, char-grilled egg.
Look it can be summed up in a couple of sentences. I spent years training and have never really stopped, you can’t, the job requires it. If for argument sake I was to take on the role a CSD for a day, ( normal operation , no emergencies) I am sure that I could make an attempt. Now it may not be a smooth operation and things would be done in correctly but no one would come to any harm. If a CSD had to fly the aircraft even with all the help in the world from the Captain they would not be able to pull it off without some training first.
This is where the respect is lost, in lack of understanding of the job in front of the door. Back in the good old days, on one occasion, a colleague had a young stewardess on the jump seat. She had listened to the other crew member’s comments on flight deck, pay and general bitching and had started to follow suit, until… On the approach suffered a multiple bird strike, numerous problems followed that involved a Pan call going out, a go around and a shut down of one engine. The flight deck did their job, there was a lot of activity and some rapid decisions. Numerous warning horns and bells but nothing that the training hadn’t covered. On the ground they were met by the Red Escorts but nothing too serious, anyway when they turned to see how the third seater was doing she was in floods of tears and scared sh**less. Only then did the reality of why they were up there dawn on her.
Pity not all CC share her insight.
This does not apply to all CC and CSD’s but the fact that it does for some needs to be addressed.
I have only had time to read a few of the comments above but some have been very constructive, others maybe not.
I work for the airline that recommends blankets as a way around the crouch strap problem. There has slowly been an increase in the feeling of animosity between CC and flight deck recently. Please note that these are MY feelings on the subject right or wrong.
Part of the problem lies with the more senior CC who have recently elevated themselves above the whole crew, including the pilots, by wearing New Silver name badges. It screams “ I am in charge”, the Captain is considered, by a lot of the Junior CC, as someone behind the “door” that helps the CSD do their job.
On a recent trip the Captain I flew with was a little distressed to hear the closing comment of one CC member to the passengers as they taxied to stand. “ on behalf of the Cabin Crew and most importantly your Cabin Service Director we would like to thank you for flying etc”
The captain wasn’t even mentioned. Very disrespectful.
Then when we have to have a CC member on the flight deck we have to spoon-feed them through how the seat works. Really I mean this is surely part of their SEP. They cannot even work out how to put the jump seat down.
On a recent CSD training course an open question was put to room of 30 potential CSD’s. They were asked how they perceived the order of command on the aircraft. 80% were certain that it went Captain, CSD then F/O. When asked if they were sure, they swore blind that this is how the chain of command went. Well on the few occasions that things have started to go wrong in flight and serious decisions had to be made they found it very easy to look to the front for answers.
The flight deck make decisions everyday that have drastic effects for all on board but the thought processes, the options, the reasons and the stress never passes the cockpit door, only the safe and smooth out come is felt down the back. Sure enough if we do a heavy landing everyone becomes an expert and tells you so, I think I should now start to become an expert on why my breakfast has been cooking for nearly two hours, char-grilled egg.
Look it can be summed up in a couple of sentences. I spent years training and have never really stopped, you can’t, the job requires it. If for argument sake I was to take on the role a CSD for a day, ( normal operation , no emergencies) I am sure that I could make an attempt. Now it may not be a smooth operation and things would be done in correctly but no one would come to any harm. If a CSD had to fly the aircraft even with all the help in the world from the Captain they would not be able to pull it off without some training first.
This is where the respect is lost, in lack of understanding of the job in front of the door. Back in the good old days, on one occasion, a colleague had a young stewardess on the jump seat. She had listened to the other crew member’s comments on flight deck, pay and general bitching and had started to follow suit, until… On the approach suffered a multiple bird strike, numerous problems followed that involved a Pan call going out, a go around and a shut down of one engine. The flight deck did their job, there was a lot of activity and some rapid decisions. Numerous warning horns and bells but nothing that the training hadn’t covered. On the ground they were met by the Red Escorts but nothing too serious, anyway when they turned to see how the third seater was doing she was in floods of tears and scared sh**less. Only then did the reality of why they were up there dawn on her.
Pity not all CC share her insight.
This does not apply to all CC and CSD’s but the fact that it does for some needs to be addressed.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Got here a bit late, but the whole issue is one that I hold very dear to me.
Perhaps I could add to the debate regarding respect and also prejudice; whether it is due or earned.
The majority of Cabin Crew who are joining nowadays believe that respect is earned by pilots and due to CSD's. The mechanisms that have led to this curious phenomenom are debatable (Some blame training methods, inherent disemmination of propoganda by management or maybe change of psychological profile of suitable candidates).
Personally, I have discovered that in order to enamour myself with C/C with whom I will share company with for the next few days, it is sometimes necessary to be self depracatory about my 'position' for the first few hours of meeting. I never bring the subject up, but quite often I have to "laugh at myself/colleagues" to prove that (maybe) I'm not one of those "egotistical wakners".
My point?
We are both prejudiced in our own stereotypical ways and on the whole the majority of both professions tend to either hide these prejudices or not have them at all. The answer to who is most to blame lies in the paper each group 'tends' to read.
PILOTS - A Broadsheet (Not lacking in prejudice, but intelligent enough to allow the reader to develop their own from selective use of reporting)
CABIN CREW - The Daily Mail (Damning diatribe of 'opinion' mainly based on hearsay and never afraid to express prejudice if it helps their cause)
Yours occasionally sycophantic (Hates being alone for 4 days)
Magnus
[This message has been edited by Magnus Picus (edited 01 May 2001).]
Perhaps I could add to the debate regarding respect and also prejudice; whether it is due or earned.
The majority of Cabin Crew who are joining nowadays believe that respect is earned by pilots and due to CSD's. The mechanisms that have led to this curious phenomenom are debatable (Some blame training methods, inherent disemmination of propoganda by management or maybe change of psychological profile of suitable candidates).
Personally, I have discovered that in order to enamour myself with C/C with whom I will share company with for the next few days, it is sometimes necessary to be self depracatory about my 'position' for the first few hours of meeting. I never bring the subject up, but quite often I have to "laugh at myself/colleagues" to prove that (maybe) I'm not one of those "egotistical wakners".
My point?
We are both prejudiced in our own stereotypical ways and on the whole the majority of both professions tend to either hide these prejudices or not have them at all. The answer to who is most to blame lies in the paper each group 'tends' to read.
PILOTS - A Broadsheet (Not lacking in prejudice, but intelligent enough to allow the reader to develop their own from selective use of reporting)
CABIN CREW - The Daily Mail (Damning diatribe of 'opinion' mainly based on hearsay and never afraid to express prejudice if it helps their cause)
Yours occasionally sycophantic (Hates being alone for 4 days)
Magnus
[This message has been edited by Magnus Picus (edited 01 May 2001).]
Guest
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Yes, I am ex military. Very ex military, but that is not mentioned in my profile.
No I am not used to having my every word obeyed without question at all times. The military teaches discipline, not slavish obedience. There is a big difference. It also teaches respect for position and authority.
No it doesn't affect me in commercial aviation although I am very grateful for everything the military has taught me.
Still learning though.
I got rid of the nervous twitch and checking my 6 o'clock for bandits many years ago. Still keep the coat hangar in the scarf though.
LXX, 1 better than LX1X
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]
No I am not used to having my every word obeyed without question at all times. The military teaches discipline, not slavish obedience. There is a big difference. It also teaches respect for position and authority.
No it doesn't affect me in commercial aviation although I am very grateful for everything the military has taught me.
Still learning though.
I got rid of the nervous twitch and checking my 6 o'clock for bandits many years ago. Still keep the coat hangar in the scarf though.
LXX, 1 better than LX1X
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]
Guest
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Micropilot
I work for the same outfit. The 80% is no surprise.I'm just surprised it was corrected(I assume it was!!).
Hopefully JL's comments on compuserve about a light at the end of the tunnel is a start although I'll believe it when I see it. I've said it before the only way to alleviate this is by integrating the departments. This issue has massive safety implications if the chain of command is at all smudged. Maybe the CAA should be looking into it.
BTSM
I work for the same outfit. The 80% is no surprise.I'm just surprised it was corrected(I assume it was!!).
Hopefully JL's comments on compuserve about a light at the end of the tunnel is a start although I'll believe it when I see it. I've said it before the only way to alleviate this is by integrating the departments. This issue has massive safety implications if the chain of command is at all smudged. Maybe the CAA should be looking into it.
BTSM
Guest
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I too like others have found this thread a long and depressing read, and would doubt that it has happened in many other airlines ?
I really didn't want to contribute to it , but having been referred to by my own f/d colleagues as a potentially dangerous biscuit thrower (on £30-60,000) - NOT, feel very offended by some of their remarks offered here.
I too fly at BA,and in general fly with some terrific people,whom i really enjoy going to work with - cabin and flight crew alike.
I do not feel there is an underlying feeling of disrespect for the flight crew - judging by some of the comments directed at us,the opposite seems to differ.
I think the problem stems from the minority in each community that make the whole thing difficult for everybody else.
Some of these pilot's are obviously enraged by the actions of a few 'difficult' crew and then take this out on the whole c/c community.
This forum should not be used as an opportunity for stone throwing and name calling,thats best left to a playground of 8 yr olds.
It should be used as an opportunity to find ways to re-harmonize this VERY important relationship and make good for the future .
I have flown for other airlines where there was never this problem or even any question of it - why should it be so in BA ?(!)
Please for the sake of the companies good name and the trust we need built there-in use your good sense and professionalism to make good of this.
Just for your info the majority of s/h c/c at BA are on £8,300 p.a.+meal allowance ,not the figures stated earlier . . .and . . .
we are not biscuit throwers , but tend to serve a wide range of freshly prepared meals and drinks,whilst tending to a wide range of varying needs/situations ,more often than not on a long duty day/working week. Thankyou .
I really didn't want to contribute to it , but having been referred to by my own f/d colleagues as a potentially dangerous biscuit thrower (on £30-60,000) - NOT, feel very offended by some of their remarks offered here.
I too fly at BA,and in general fly with some terrific people,whom i really enjoy going to work with - cabin and flight crew alike.
I do not feel there is an underlying feeling of disrespect for the flight crew - judging by some of the comments directed at us,the opposite seems to differ.
I think the problem stems from the minority in each community that make the whole thing difficult for everybody else.
Some of these pilot's are obviously enraged by the actions of a few 'difficult' crew and then take this out on the whole c/c community.
This forum should not be used as an opportunity for stone throwing and name calling,thats best left to a playground of 8 yr olds.
It should be used as an opportunity to find ways to re-harmonize this VERY important relationship and make good for the future .
I have flown for other airlines where there was never this problem or even any question of it - why should it be so in BA ?(!)
Please for the sake of the companies good name and the trust we need built there-in use your good sense and professionalism to make good of this.
Just for your info the majority of s/h c/c at BA are on £8,300 p.a.+meal allowance ,not the figures stated earlier . . .and . . .
we are not biscuit throwers , but tend to serve a wide range of freshly prepared meals and drinks,whilst tending to a wide range of varying needs/situations ,more often than not on a long duty day/working week. Thankyou .
Guest
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I don't know how you guys think about this, but doesn't this call for professional help? I'm still waiting for the day I will have flightsafety, CRM courses etc. together with cabin crew. Would be interesting just to get to know eachother and find out how this problem can be handled. Where I work it's not such a big problem yet, but I can see a downward trend. I must say it's really sad...
Guest
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From an AA guy stateside, the posts on BA here make me feel right at home. Same exact problem here. A small minority, far larger than it should be, causing most of the problems. Most are great, but the problem FA's thrive in an antagonistic corporate enviroment that has had a history of pitting one work group against another.
If I had to place the order of blame, I'd put the lack of respect for authority first, the gutless among our pilot group who let it occur second, and the corporate culture third.
The societal problems over there might be tougher to beat though. Any place where you go to prison after defending yourself in your dwelling has some major problems.
Guest
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A few points, aimed at nobody in particular:-
1) Respect
I believe that respect is, to a certain extent, due to everyone. I try to treat everyone with whom I work with respect. However, More than the basic needs to be earned by everyone. Nobody gets it as a matter of course, simply because they have a certain number of gold bars on their arm, or a different colour name tag. And if they behave with indifference to others, or treat them rudely, that respect rapidly gets eroded.
2) Behaviour
I have never claimed that the fault lies on either one side or the other of the F/Deck door. There are CC who are wonderful, get on with the job, and are more than happy with the job that their position in the team confers. There are some, I can well see, who would prefer to think of themselves as "Alternative Captains". Similarly, some F/Deck crew will ttreat CC with respect and as valued members of the team, others who are condescending, arrogant pr@ts. This problem is, partly, a result of the attitudes of the latter in each category. If some are misbehaving, do not adopt the hard attitudes to all that I have seen in some posts on this thread.
3) Training and Corporate Culture
If CC are being taught to behave as if the F/Deck crew are a totally different team, if SEP's don't even teach them how to operate seats on the flight deck, if they don't understand the chain of command aboard an aircraft, then something is very seriously wrong. The company's Flight Safety Officers/Managers need to get involved as a matter of urgency, because this is clearly leading to a breakdown of teamwork on board the aircraft, and that is DANGEROUS. Company Management also needs to get involved, because the corporate culture is being eroded from inside, so that office politics is taking over from what should be the first priority every time - FLIGHT SAFETY.
Finally, I personally would make every effort I can to re-establish a good working relationship with an individual with whom I find working to be "difficult". If that failed, I would, down route, read the Riot Act. Back home, I would take the issue to a suitable neutral intermediary, like a Flight Safety Manager. Last resort would be to refuse to fly with that person.
1) Respect
I believe that respect is, to a certain extent, due to everyone. I try to treat everyone with whom I work with respect. However, More than the basic needs to be earned by everyone. Nobody gets it as a matter of course, simply because they have a certain number of gold bars on their arm, or a different colour name tag. And if they behave with indifference to others, or treat them rudely, that respect rapidly gets eroded.
2) Behaviour
I have never claimed that the fault lies on either one side or the other of the F/Deck door. There are CC who are wonderful, get on with the job, and are more than happy with the job that their position in the team confers. There are some, I can well see, who would prefer to think of themselves as "Alternative Captains". Similarly, some F/Deck crew will ttreat CC with respect and as valued members of the team, others who are condescending, arrogant pr@ts. This problem is, partly, a result of the attitudes of the latter in each category. If some are misbehaving, do not adopt the hard attitudes to all that I have seen in some posts on this thread.
3) Training and Corporate Culture
If CC are being taught to behave as if the F/Deck crew are a totally different team, if SEP's don't even teach them how to operate seats on the flight deck, if they don't understand the chain of command aboard an aircraft, then something is very seriously wrong. The company's Flight Safety Officers/Managers need to get involved as a matter of urgency, because this is clearly leading to a breakdown of teamwork on board the aircraft, and that is DANGEROUS. Company Management also needs to get involved, because the corporate culture is being eroded from inside, so that office politics is taking over from what should be the first priority every time - FLIGHT SAFETY.
Finally, I personally would make every effort I can to re-establish a good working relationship with an individual with whom I find working to be "difficult". If that failed, I would, down route, read the Riot Act. Back home, I would take the issue to a suitable neutral intermediary, like a Flight Safety Manager. Last resort would be to refuse to fly with that person.
Guest
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Hugmonster,
Yet again I must disagree with you.
Respect, A measure of how much respect is deserved (to use your phraseology) is the amount of responsibility carried by an individual and, in the case of an airline Captain, this is reflected in his experience, training and qualifications, and endorsed by the company in terms of salary, 4 gold bars and some shiny scrambled egg on the peak of his cap. It should not have to be "earned" from the CC. The level of professionalism that you display should confirm to the CC that the trust and respect that they show because of your position is well placed and deserved.
I dont know what your definition of "basic level of respect" is but I can only assume from your attitude that you are such an ace that you never had to work hard for your CPL (ATPL?) or that Daddy paid for it all for you.
Please, never mind the CC, Have a bit of respect yourself for your own position. Its bloody hard work over a long period of time to sit in the best seat in the house. Its bad enough having to listen to the CC stories at BA, but when one of our own starts devaluing his own position I despair.
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]
Yet again I must disagree with you.
Respect, A measure of how much respect is deserved (to use your phraseology) is the amount of responsibility carried by an individual and, in the case of an airline Captain, this is reflected in his experience, training and qualifications, and endorsed by the company in terms of salary, 4 gold bars and some shiny scrambled egg on the peak of his cap. It should not have to be "earned" from the CC. The level of professionalism that you display should confirm to the CC that the trust and respect that they show because of your position is well placed and deserved.
I dont know what your definition of "basic level of respect" is but I can only assume from your attitude that you are such an ace that you never had to work hard for your CPL (ATPL?) or that Daddy paid for it all for you.
Please, never mind the CC, Have a bit of respect yourself for your own position. Its bloody hard work over a long period of time to sit in the best seat in the house. Its bad enough having to listen to the CC stories at BA, but when one of our own starts devaluing his own position I despair.
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]
Guest
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The question of whether this is a "BA" problem, or a problem of a few individuals, has a rule of thumb answer in the organisational culture literature. If 3% or fewer of a workforce have a given dangerous/dysfunctional attitude, then it is will tend to be regarded as an individual problem, best dealt with by individual counselling, training or disciplinary action - and eliminated through improved recruitment procedures. If the frequency is greater than 3%, then it is an issue of organisational culture.
This is because of intermittent reinforcement of the behaviour of respondents. If I, as a flight attendant, encounter flight crew who are contemptuous of me (e.g call me things like 'biscuit thrower') less than one working day in about 20, then I will focus my hurt and anger on the individual concerned, and I will retain my generally sunny disposition.
But if I encounter these attitudes more than once every 20 working days, then I become likely to adopt cautious and defensive routines - defaulting to an assumption of ill will until proved otherwise.
The trouble in this particular case is that this is working in both directions and seems to be setting up a negative feedback loop. Regardless of where it started, once set up, my negative default behaviour in my role of flight attendant is likely to increase the likelihood of causing yet another flight crew member to also descend into negative assumptions about all flight attendants, and this change will reinforce the negative responses of yet more flight attendants.......
Once the negative and defensive behaviours are being reinforced in this way no amount of pontificating about chains of command is going to change it. Deep level cultural interventions are required. I had believed that Hampden-Turner did this for British Airways some years ago - but if he did, then it looks like he failed.
CRM development in a negative cultural setting like this is worse than no CRM at all. You end up with the kinds of things decribed in this thread - abuse of the kinds of relationships being developed. CRM principles assume certain cultural attitudes, but training in CRM cannot create those cultural attitudes.
I have no personal idea as to whether this describes the actual situation in BA, but one posting sounded warning bells for me. If it is so that flight crew and cabin crew do not do CRM development together, then somebody somewhere has it all very badly wrong.
The other negative indicator, of course, is the descriptive language used by some BA personnel in this thread. Whether this is the language used by >3% cannot be deduced from its frequency of use here.
This is because of intermittent reinforcement of the behaviour of respondents. If I, as a flight attendant, encounter flight crew who are contemptuous of me (e.g call me things like 'biscuit thrower') less than one working day in about 20, then I will focus my hurt and anger on the individual concerned, and I will retain my generally sunny disposition.
But if I encounter these attitudes more than once every 20 working days, then I become likely to adopt cautious and defensive routines - defaulting to an assumption of ill will until proved otherwise.
The trouble in this particular case is that this is working in both directions and seems to be setting up a negative feedback loop. Regardless of where it started, once set up, my negative default behaviour in my role of flight attendant is likely to increase the likelihood of causing yet another flight crew member to also descend into negative assumptions about all flight attendants, and this change will reinforce the negative responses of yet more flight attendants.......
Once the negative and defensive behaviours are being reinforced in this way no amount of pontificating about chains of command is going to change it. Deep level cultural interventions are required. I had believed that Hampden-Turner did this for British Airways some years ago - but if he did, then it looks like he failed.
CRM development in a negative cultural setting like this is worse than no CRM at all. You end up with the kinds of things decribed in this thread - abuse of the kinds of relationships being developed. CRM principles assume certain cultural attitudes, but training in CRM cannot create those cultural attitudes.
I have no personal idea as to whether this describes the actual situation in BA, but one posting sounded warning bells for me. If it is so that flight crew and cabin crew do not do CRM development together, then somebody somewhere has it all very badly wrong.
The other negative indicator, of course, is the descriptive language used by some BA personnel in this thread. Whether this is the language used by >3% cannot be deduced from its frequency of use here.
Guest
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Oh, how sad I feel now about this. I was asked earlier this year if I would like to get involved in the cabin crew CRM course at Cranebank and gave it some consideration. The trainers training course happened to be on a weekend when I had other plans so I passed it up. The lady at BA who asked me this said they were crying out for pilots to get involved but there just weren't enough interested. So if the problem occurs at an initial training stage it seems we only have ourselves to blame.
Later this week I'm going to scuttle on down there and volunteer. Mind you, at 4.5hrs NCP it beats doing a morning MAN shuttle. And you can do the course as many or as few times a month as you want. Most do 2 days every other month.
There are 3500 of us at BA. We must be able to rustle up a few trainers. So come on, lets see a show of hands. (The lady has a desk just inside the big office on the left past the Flight Crew Admin Centre, I forget her name)
Later this week I'm going to scuttle on down there and volunteer. Mind you, at 4.5hrs NCP it beats doing a morning MAN shuttle. And you can do the course as many or as few times a month as you want. Most do 2 days every other month.
There are 3500 of us at BA. We must be able to rustle up a few trainers. So come on, lets see a show of hands. (The lady has a desk just inside the big office on the left past the Flight Crew Admin Centre, I forget her name)
Guest
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Just a couple of points about CRM training for CC at BA.I have just completed my annual SEP checks, on day 1 three hours are spent on CRM and its implications and how we as CC fit into the role.We are shown videos related to actual events and how the crew worked together F/C and C/C.It is explained to us by Pilots what actions they take regarding an emergency sittuation so that we can understand what they are doing, in particular an emergency evacuation and the procedures that the Captain and FO follow before giving the command to evacuate to ensure it is safe for us to open the doors.
However just as importantly for us, it also shows how we as C/C work together on a large aircraft and how as individuals we fit into the larger picture regarding safety.We are then given various excercises to follow as to what our actions would be in an emergency and how as a team we would work together.
Many of the comments on this forum fall into personality clashes and are not some kind of corporate culture, if I was disrespectful to my F/D collegues the Captain has every right to off load me, as I said in my previous posting , I have not in six years of being a CSD encountered any bad feeling whatsoever from any flight deck at BA, and I would be very dissapointed if people reading this thinks this is the exception and not the norm.
I am very proud of the pilots that I work with on a daily basis and putting my life in their hands shows the upmost respect I have for their role.
However just as importantly for us, it also shows how we as C/C work together on a large aircraft and how as individuals we fit into the larger picture regarding safety.We are then given various excercises to follow as to what our actions would be in an emergency and how as a team we would work together.
Many of the comments on this forum fall into personality clashes and are not some kind of corporate culture, if I was disrespectful to my F/D collegues the Captain has every right to off load me, as I said in my previous posting , I have not in six years of being a CSD encountered any bad feeling whatsoever from any flight deck at BA, and I would be very dissapointed if people reading this thinks this is the exception and not the norm.
I am very proud of the pilots that I work with on a daily basis and putting my life in their hands shows the upmost respect I have for their role.
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No, thinalbert, Daddy did not pay for my training. I did. And I had to work at it very hard, both before qualifying and since. It has not been easy, and I feel quite a bit of satisfaction at what I have proved to myself.
However, I don't feel that eveybody around me should be so impressed that they stand up when I enter the room, nor that I should be accorded respect automatically for that.
You disagree with that. You feel you should receive respect as a right. Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you that it doesn't work like that in the real world. This is not the 1950's any more. You will not have your crew saluting, addressing you as "Captain" and deferring to you simply because you have four nice shiny stripes.
If you disagree with what I say, then do so - it's your privilege. However, your insulting terms demean your posting, and detract from the points you are trying to make. You see fault only among Cabin Crew. I called you on that, and you said you stood by everything you said. This is exactly the sort of attitude that will have cabin crews' hackles rising. Why reinforce their misconceptions? I agree with Rongotai's post. It is people like you who help the impression among others that "Flight Deck crew are a bunch of jerks who think that they should be respected merely because they're who they are, and don't care how they treat anyone."
My "basic level" of respect is based on my respect for other people's feelings, for them being a human being who has a basic value to the team, for their self-esteem, and self-image. Treat them otherwise and you will remove all of that. But treat everyone you meet, from cabin crew to baggage handlers with respect and that enhances your own image, your own professionalism.
However, I don't feel that eveybody around me should be so impressed that they stand up when I enter the room, nor that I should be accorded respect automatically for that.
You disagree with that. You feel you should receive respect as a right. Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you that it doesn't work like that in the real world. This is not the 1950's any more. You will not have your crew saluting, addressing you as "Captain" and deferring to you simply because you have four nice shiny stripes.
If you disagree with what I say, then do so - it's your privilege. However, your insulting terms demean your posting, and detract from the points you are trying to make. You see fault only among Cabin Crew. I called you on that, and you said you stood by everything you said. This is exactly the sort of attitude that will have cabin crews' hackles rising. Why reinforce their misconceptions? I agree with Rongotai's post. It is people like you who help the impression among others that "Flight Deck crew are a bunch of jerks who think that they should be respected merely because they're who they are, and don't care how they treat anyone."
My "basic level" of respect is based on my respect for other people's feelings, for them being a human being who has a basic value to the team, for their self-esteem, and self-image. Treat them otherwise and you will remove all of that. But treat everyone you meet, from cabin crew to baggage handlers with respect and that enhances your own image, your own professionalism.
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Huggy, Calm down.
I say again, We are talking here about the 1% of CC who do not play ball and treat CRM as a vehicle to screw the system.
Perhaps it would help your thought processes if we could differentiate between personal respect and professional respect. Away from the aeroplane, on a night stop we all start with the same level of personal respect, - fine, no argument there I hope.
However, Do you really have the same amount of professional respect (admiration for the extremely difficult training, financial hardship etc etc) for someone who was sitting on the checkout in Tescos 3 weeks ago as you do for your own position.
I am not saying that the CC are not deserving of respect, but at the end of the day if they could do our jobs they wouldn't choose to do theirs would they.
There are many ways of measuring respect, one of them is your company's salary structure. Your company, I hope, respects your professional contribution with a salary substantially greater than the CC. If you wish to give the same amount of professional respect to your CC, why dont you go the whole way and share your salary with them as well. This is not intended as a facetious comment, but to highlight the fact that you carry a lot of responsibility as an airline Captain (in my case public liability insurance for 2 BILLION US DOLLARS). Now contrast that with the responsibility of CC. I,m not saying that they dont do a valuable job, or that the vast majority of them aren't good to work with, or that we as pilots should in any way look down on them. BUT, they haven't had to work anywhere near as hard for anywhere near as long as a pilot to get where they are. That is why a Captain is due respect and should NOT have to earn it on each and every flight. He can certainly lose that respect if he behaves like an overbearing plonker, but initially it should be given freely. He/She has far more important issues to consider. It is also why your company values your services higher than CC and you see this every month in your salary. Tree Hugging does not work with people who are solely out to take advantage and, as the Captain of a passenger transport aeroplane you do not have the option to turn the other cheek. That would lose respect....fast!
BTW Huggy, if you look at my previous post on this thread you will see that I complimented the post that you seem to think is critical of me. This isnt the 1950s anymore, I do not expect the CC to stand up when I enter the room, I do not view pilots or CC as "a bunch of jerks" but I damn well do expect the CSD to call me Captain until I,ve told her she can use my christian name and I sure as hell expect her to keep me informed of anything going on in the cabin that effects flight safety. Look thru some previous postings, more than one relates to smoking in toilets and the Captain not being informed until the aeroplane is on the ground.
Strangely enough I dont have any of the problems referred to on this thread, neither am I aware of any problems within my company.
Is it co incidence then that we run CRM courses with pilots and CC together and always run thru the chain of command and who is in charge of the aeroplane. We also labour the point that teamwork is important but every team needs a leader and every team member must know his/her place (standing?) in the team.
Thats not poor CRM, its not lack of respect, its explaining to people what their job and responsibilities are and who ultimately is in charge of the aeroplane. And that commands respect. If some people choose not to give that respect, they tend to be ostracised by their fellow CC which soon sorts the problem out.
We also try to get CC into our simulator sessions for NITS briefings etc. You should see the look on their faces when they see the warning panel lit up like a christmas tree, hooters and bells going off, and smoke filling the flight deck. Perhaps you dont have the luxury of a sim, but if you do I suggest it is singularly the biggest factor (short of a genuine serious emergency) in showing CC why we are really sitting up the sharp end.
End of Sermon!
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]
I say again, We are talking here about the 1% of CC who do not play ball and treat CRM as a vehicle to screw the system.
Perhaps it would help your thought processes if we could differentiate between personal respect and professional respect. Away from the aeroplane, on a night stop we all start with the same level of personal respect, - fine, no argument there I hope.
However, Do you really have the same amount of professional respect (admiration for the extremely difficult training, financial hardship etc etc) for someone who was sitting on the checkout in Tescos 3 weeks ago as you do for your own position.
I am not saying that the CC are not deserving of respect, but at the end of the day if they could do our jobs they wouldn't choose to do theirs would they.
There are many ways of measuring respect, one of them is your company's salary structure. Your company, I hope, respects your professional contribution with a salary substantially greater than the CC. If you wish to give the same amount of professional respect to your CC, why dont you go the whole way and share your salary with them as well. This is not intended as a facetious comment, but to highlight the fact that you carry a lot of responsibility as an airline Captain (in my case public liability insurance for 2 BILLION US DOLLARS). Now contrast that with the responsibility of CC. I,m not saying that they dont do a valuable job, or that the vast majority of them aren't good to work with, or that we as pilots should in any way look down on them. BUT, they haven't had to work anywhere near as hard for anywhere near as long as a pilot to get where they are. That is why a Captain is due respect and should NOT have to earn it on each and every flight. He can certainly lose that respect if he behaves like an overbearing plonker, but initially it should be given freely. He/She has far more important issues to consider. It is also why your company values your services higher than CC and you see this every month in your salary. Tree Hugging does not work with people who are solely out to take advantage and, as the Captain of a passenger transport aeroplane you do not have the option to turn the other cheek. That would lose respect....fast!
BTW Huggy, if you look at my previous post on this thread you will see that I complimented the post that you seem to think is critical of me. This isnt the 1950s anymore, I do not expect the CC to stand up when I enter the room, I do not view pilots or CC as "a bunch of jerks" but I damn well do expect the CSD to call me Captain until I,ve told her she can use my christian name and I sure as hell expect her to keep me informed of anything going on in the cabin that effects flight safety. Look thru some previous postings, more than one relates to smoking in toilets and the Captain not being informed until the aeroplane is on the ground.
Strangely enough I dont have any of the problems referred to on this thread, neither am I aware of any problems within my company.
Is it co incidence then that we run CRM courses with pilots and CC together and always run thru the chain of command and who is in charge of the aeroplane. We also labour the point that teamwork is important but every team needs a leader and every team member must know his/her place (standing?) in the team.
Thats not poor CRM, its not lack of respect, its explaining to people what their job and responsibilities are and who ultimately is in charge of the aeroplane. And that commands respect. If some people choose not to give that respect, they tend to be ostracised by their fellow CC which soon sorts the problem out.
We also try to get CC into our simulator sessions for NITS briefings etc. You should see the look on their faces when they see the warning panel lit up like a christmas tree, hooters and bells going off, and smoke filling the flight deck. Perhaps you dont have the luxury of a sim, but if you do I suggest it is singularly the biggest factor (short of a genuine serious emergency) in showing CC why we are really sitting up the sharp end.
End of Sermon!
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]
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THINALBERT,
Respect, from what I read in your posting should be automatically given to a Captain because he has 4 gold bars, some scrambled egg on his/her hat and because they have the company's endorsement. I have to disagree. been a first officer now for about 6 years with various company's and quite frankly have flown with some absolute to$$ers. Rude both to me and cabin crew, a trip to Bahrain once resulted in the skipper getting absolutely legless, vomiting in front of his crew and knocking on a few doors on his way back to the hotel room.(he did have 72hours before he next operated.) I believe Captain's should be setting an example what kind of example is this. Admittedly these examples are by far in the minority but no wonder some crew get the @rse with us if they see people behaving like this.
Respect, from what I read in your posting should be automatically given to a Captain because he has 4 gold bars, some scrambled egg on his/her hat and because they have the company's endorsement. I have to disagree. been a first officer now for about 6 years with various company's and quite frankly have flown with some absolute to$$ers. Rude both to me and cabin crew, a trip to Bahrain once resulted in the skipper getting absolutely legless, vomiting in front of his crew and knocking on a few doors on his way back to the hotel room.(he did have 72hours before he next operated.) I believe Captain's should be setting an example what kind of example is this. Admittedly these examples are by far in the minority but no wonder some crew get the @rse with us if they see people behaving like this.
Guest
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Yellow Dog,
If you reread my previous posting (which I was in the process of editing while you were making your post) you will see that I have qualified my statement somewhat.
Basically, Yes the Captain should command respect initially for his position. But, that respect is a privelege that he should not abuse. If he does abuse it then he does deserve to lose that respect. In the situation you describe, I quite agree with you. The blokes a to**er who, in the CC eyes has got ALL pilots a bad name.
I was once told the "ideal" definition of an F/O which went something like
Outflies the Captain when its his sector, keeps him out of trouble when it isn't, outdrinks him in the bar, then puts him to bed before he makes a complete ar*e of himself;
Those days thankfully HAVE gone I hope, but some of the old values and courtesy's are still valid. Respect for position until it is abused is, I believe, one of them.
Happy Flying
Edited for spelling
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]
If you reread my previous posting (which I was in the process of editing while you were making your post) you will see that I have qualified my statement somewhat.
Basically, Yes the Captain should command respect initially for his position. But, that respect is a privelege that he should not abuse. If he does abuse it then he does deserve to lose that respect. In the situation you describe, I quite agree with you. The blokes a to**er who, in the CC eyes has got ALL pilots a bad name.
I was once told the "ideal" definition of an F/O which went something like
Outflies the Captain when its his sector, keeps him out of trouble when it isn't, outdrinks him in the bar, then puts him to bed before he makes a complete ar*e of himself;
Those days thankfully HAVE gone I hope, but some of the old values and courtesy's are still valid. Respect for position until it is abused is, I believe, one of them.
Happy Flying
Edited for spelling
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 02 May 2001).]