More madness at BA.
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For the record, the chain of command is (should be) laid down in your company Operations Manual (e.g. in ours it's in section 4.2.2) and clearly states the order as:
Captain, First Officer, Senior Cabin Crew Member.
and believe me when I say that we've had occassions where the SCC / SA / #1 / Purser / CSD have entered the flight deck reporting to us that it's "too hot in the cabin" and then, without even so much as a 'by your leave' taken to adjusting the temperature controls on the OHP themselves - incredible !
Captain, First Officer, Senior Cabin Crew Member.
and believe me when I say that we've had occassions where the SCC / SA / #1 / Purser / CSD have entered the flight deck reporting to us that it's "too hot in the cabin" and then, without even so much as a 'by your leave' taken to adjusting the temperature controls on the OHP themselves - incredible !
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And after all this the Plate Layers ask us to taxi slowly so they can have a CAT turnaround??? No chance.
Just after the stupid note in the BALPA rag about FO's no longer getting hotel upgrades cos guess who had complained, I was with a skipper who thought this was the biggest bollocks he'd heard for a while. Picture the scene, after landing in walks Plate Layer (PL), 'oh XXX we only need to be 5 mins late for a CAT' followed by a rapid increase in thrust and taxi speed. Those PL's went to the compass.
Pandora, agree with you regarding sitting on the back row. Some of them just don't know where to put themselves. It's then quite funny if they all end up huddled together at the front when the 2 Flight Crew have all 9 back seats to themselves. On a serious note it doesn't help build a team when one group considers it their territory and resent the FD for sitting there.
But I must also add that in short haul I have come across many excellent Cabin Crew (new term to reflect the better side of Cabin Services), I've had my wife and brother well looked after and upgraded without asking. I wouldn't like to generalise against all CC even if their union makes me puke.
So lets chuck out all this CRM muck and return to the days of the BOAC Barons. Sure we might fly a few into the ground but we'll be so damned awkward we'll get what we want. In a way this is part of the problem. New pilots are recruited by CRM loving (I do support CRM) tree huggers who want pilots who'll get on with everyone, not rock the boat, be adaptable to different people and different situtations, modify their behavior to suit the environment etc etc. For CC it's more important to have a language so we get power crazy ****'s but at least they speak a foreign language.
It's been said above but as pilots we need to make a stand and if needs be pull the same tricks as they. So if the PL complains about the Captain being a perve when he wants her to wear the seat belt, the Captain should report her for a lack of knowledge of FCO's and consider her adverse to safety. Off-load her. Stick to them !!
Just after the stupid note in the BALPA rag about FO's no longer getting hotel upgrades cos guess who had complained, I was with a skipper who thought this was the biggest bollocks he'd heard for a while. Picture the scene, after landing in walks Plate Layer (PL), 'oh XXX we only need to be 5 mins late for a CAT' followed by a rapid increase in thrust and taxi speed. Those PL's went to the compass.
Pandora, agree with you regarding sitting on the back row. Some of them just don't know where to put themselves. It's then quite funny if they all end up huddled together at the front when the 2 Flight Crew have all 9 back seats to themselves. On a serious note it doesn't help build a team when one group considers it their territory and resent the FD for sitting there.
But I must also add that in short haul I have come across many excellent Cabin Crew (new term to reflect the better side of Cabin Services), I've had my wife and brother well looked after and upgraded without asking. I wouldn't like to generalise against all CC even if their union makes me puke.
So lets chuck out all this CRM muck and return to the days of the BOAC Barons. Sure we might fly a few into the ground but we'll be so damned awkward we'll get what we want. In a way this is part of the problem. New pilots are recruited by CRM loving (I do support CRM) tree huggers who want pilots who'll get on with everyone, not rock the boat, be adaptable to different people and different situtations, modify their behavior to suit the environment etc etc. For CC it's more important to have a language so we get power crazy ****'s but at least they speak a foreign language.
It's been said above but as pilots we need to make a stand and if needs be pull the same tricks as they. So if the PL complains about the Captain being a perve when he wants her to wear the seat belt, the Captain should report her for a lack of knowledge of FCO's and consider her adverse to safety. Off-load her. Stick to them !!
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In my company there are some of the cabin crew instructers that tell the new recruits to beware of the flight deck and that we are a bunch of ar*****es. Great CRM training!!
There have been a couple of incidents where CC have made anonymous claims against Captains, and yes the Captains were suspended pending investigation. No fault found in the end either!!
Also some of the younger CC have made complaints or accusations of their own seniors. It seems to be the younger generation of today. All comes from not having any respect for anything much, let alone authority. That is not too say that they are all like that, but in these days of airline expansions and births, airlines cannot be as choosey as the have in the past.
There have been a couple of incidents where CC have made anonymous claims against Captains, and yes the Captains were suspended pending investigation. No fault found in the end either!!
Also some of the younger CC have made complaints or accusations of their own seniors. It seems to be the younger generation of today. All comes from not having any respect for anything much, let alone authority. That is not too say that they are all like that, but in these days of airline expansions and births, airlines cannot be as choosey as the have in the past.
Guest
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Have to put my 2 pence in, there seems to be quite a lot of anger either side of the cockpit in some airlines ( my present one is great, although I'm leaving it was one of the disadvantages, I'm also seeing one of them).
They might be less hostile to you lot personally if you refrained from calling them cart tarts, biscuit throwers, plate layers, and whatever else, and understand that until the sh*t hits the fan they have the hardest job on the plane, that is dealing with the self loading cargo, pond life or whatever you choose to call them.
If the cabin crew are any good, they will do their job well( personally I would never like their job, I probably want to punch a pax within 5 mins), and when the Sh*t does hit the fan they will act as part of the team get the pax off in one piece (which is why we are paid the big bucks)
They might be less hostile to you lot personally if you refrained from calling them cart tarts, biscuit throwers, plate layers, and whatever else, and understand that until the sh*t hits the fan they have the hardest job on the plane, that is dealing with the self loading cargo, pond life or whatever you choose to call them.
If the cabin crew are any good, they will do their job well( personally I would never like their job, I probably want to punch a pax within 5 mins), and when the Sh*t does hit the fan they will act as part of the team get the pax off in one piece (which is why we are paid the big bucks)
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Kennedy - IMHO it is far harder to successfully complete an S.R.A down to minimums in **** weather,with a stiff x-wind at night onto a very short runway,than it is to serve a coffee. To then be accused of being a c**p pilot for doing a (necessarily) firm landing by the junior c/c does not exactly help,either!
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As a CSD with BA I value the working relationship I have with my flight crew colleagues, I work hard to communicate with them and also have respect for FC as I know many have for me and my position on board. When ever possible I always upgrade flight crew family to first which considering most are using 54A M47 tickets shows respect for their positions. There are occassions when this isn't possible and believe or not I'm in the best position to judge this. Please lets work together rather than against each other.
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Biscuit throwers, trolley dollies, tart carts. We have another description in Oz that originated in Qantas and it's called "tucker fuc*ers". Generally applied to CC who were suffering from confusion about their nether regions. However, one must not generalise. After all, I married one and she is definitely not confused about her nether regions! 
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I hardly know where to start. On 757 we have very little problem with CSD's but on 767 LGW and at LHR lonhaul I'm afraid its a different story.There has been countless stories of comments of "get back in your box", "don't walk through first", "you can't have a quilt for rest" etc etc. the problem is deep seated.
Firstly, no other airline in the world pays or treats its cabin crew so well. £30k-£60k for an unskilled job. Also cabin sevices is far stronger in BA than flight ops so whatever they want goes. Its happened before and it will happoen again that CSD's want a change in the chain of command to show them second. This "Captain of the Cabin" attitude is both wrong and dangerous.Unfortunately, as said above the senior cabin crew enjoy almost unqualifies support from their management (commendable) but for the fact we receive very little (suspensions etc).
I believe the SFO in the above incident had the captain's permission but inthe resulting row with the Windsor witch called her a cow under his breath. (mild)
This is part of the problem. Windsor Witches and easily offended Queens. We daren't even barely exert our authority for fear of upsetting the little darlings and ending up suspended.
If anyone doubts this is going on in BA you are very very wrong. This is the tip of the iceberg.
BTSM
ps can we find out the name of this bitch??
No you can't, BTSM, not in public on this forum.
Sick Squid
Rumours and News moderator
[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 28 April 2001).]
Firstly, no other airline in the world pays or treats its cabin crew so well. £30k-£60k for an unskilled job. Also cabin sevices is far stronger in BA than flight ops so whatever they want goes. Its happened before and it will happoen again that CSD's want a change in the chain of command to show them second. This "Captain of the Cabin" attitude is both wrong and dangerous.Unfortunately, as said above the senior cabin crew enjoy almost unqualifies support from their management (commendable) but for the fact we receive very little (suspensions etc).
I believe the SFO in the above incident had the captain's permission but inthe resulting row with the Windsor witch called her a cow under his breath. (mild)
This is part of the problem. Windsor Witches and easily offended Queens. We daren't even barely exert our authority for fear of upsetting the little darlings and ending up suspended.
If anyone doubts this is going on in BA you are very very wrong. This is the tip of the iceberg.
BTSM
ps can we find out the name of this bitch??
No you can't, BTSM, not in public on this forum.
Sick Squid
Rumours and News moderator
[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 28 April 2001).]
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paulsamcam
just for info I agree fully with your view as far as I am concerned any ( even IM ) BA staff should be upgraded if poss .
However the BA operations manual ( flying crew orders ) states that it is the Captains responsibility to ensure that no unauthorised upgrades take place . Before doors closed it is the station managers task .
Where does it say that A CSD can authorise or indeed block an upgrade .
The SFO was suspended I hear for the interaction with the CSD not the upgrade or lack of it .
just for info I agree fully with your view as far as I am concerned any ( even IM ) BA staff should be upgraded if poss .
However the BA operations manual ( flying crew orders ) states that it is the Captains responsibility to ensure that no unauthorised upgrades take place . Before doors closed it is the station managers task .
Where does it say that A CSD can authorise or indeed block an upgrade .
The SFO was suspended I hear for the interaction with the CSD not the upgrade or lack of it .
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IMO:
Flight Crew: Responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft and ultimately the goods or passengers that it carries.
Cabin Crew: Responsible for the safety and welfare of the pasengers during the flight.
Flight and cabin crew are on the same team and should work as one. They should (and largely do) recognise each others delegation of authority and responsibilities.
Flight Crew: Responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft and ultimately the goods or passengers that it carries.
Cabin Crew: Responsible for the safety and welfare of the pasengers during the flight.
Flight and cabin crew are on the same team and should work as one. They should (and largely do) recognise each others delegation of authority and responsibilities.
Guest
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it's a real pity that so much damage can be done by a few individuals. Of course rank has its place and by rights should have its priveleges, but that's in a perfect world not occupied by power freaks and bean counters. I spent 10 years in the old bill before joining the slf guardians, it's easy for me to recognise the significance of 'scrambled egg' but some of my contempories have never 'served' in a rank orientated environment before - maybe better training to start with? Then again - with all due deference ladies and gentleman, I was always told that respect must be earned not expected.
Yours aye.
Yours aye.
Guest
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To many young softy ultra left liberals with very little understanding of world events and very little care for creating their own independence, ( oh the state will provide for me, lets go and max out my credit card for fun ). Solution= 12-18 months national service, that should help them on their way.
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I cant believe the sheer arrogance that comes shining thru this thread. All flight crew are shining lights, everybody else a waste of space.
For god sake look at yourselves in the mirror and remember that you are just humans after all not some master race. treat people with respect and you will earn the respect many posters here think they are entitled to by right.
Thank god I dont recognise the pilots in my organisation from the arrogant bigoted postings that I read on this thread. Come on silent majority of decent people who happen to be pilots, repudiate these bigots before they give the whole profession a bad name.
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Interesting that the most obstreperous and morally offensive CC member that I have had the displeasure of knowing went to B.A.
Luckily though my company has generally A1 CC. However the whole emphasis of CRM had to be changed following a junior CC member taking the Doc. (Trainer) to task over the conduct of the flight after a minor tec' problem developed.
I have not had any of the unfortunate experiences listed above but I would deal with them swiftly and officially.
It's always the Machiavellian, obtuse individuals that spoil it, thank god they are very much in the minority.
The CSD that shopped the F.O must be so sad! With us the CSD would have escorted the husband or wife to First personally!
[This message has been edited by Dogma (edited 27 April 2001).]
Luckily though my company has generally A1 CC. However the whole emphasis of CRM had to be changed following a junior CC member taking the Doc. (Trainer) to task over the conduct of the flight after a minor tec' problem developed.
I have not had any of the unfortunate experiences listed above but I would deal with them swiftly and officially.
It's always the Machiavellian, obtuse individuals that spoil it, thank god they are very much in the minority.
The CSD that shopped the F.O must be so sad! With us the CSD would have escorted the husband or wife to First personally!
[This message has been edited by Dogma (edited 27 April 2001).]
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It's so disappointing to see this them and us situation between flight deck and cabin crew in some airlines.
Respect works both ways and is always earned regardless of whether your cabin crew or flight deck. But ultimately the captain is in command.
Respect works both ways and is always earned regardless of whether your cabin crew or flight deck. But ultimately the captain is in command.
Guest
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Well, having worked on both sides of the door I can understand (unfortunately?) that the attitude of some pilots on this threat actually makes sense.
Several times, I've heard comments from (former) colleagues on 'the other side' blaiming a lot of things on flightdeck crew and creating their own world behind the door in which the CC are running the operation as if they were in charge, only to talk to flightdeck regarding drinks and meals (sometimes ofered to them spiked!) if already at all. Flightsafety matters are not handled accurately because of this and safety is at jeopardy. For instance, what is the use of telling flightdeck after disembarkation that a few passengers were caught smoking several times in the aft toilets and were reprimanded by CC in due course, however no action was thought to have been required, hence flightcrew was not told of the incident...
However, recently I have also heard on numerous occasions flightcrew (usually my colleague in the LHS) announcing their disgust of CC in general. Statements like "I will only tell them anything which is absolutely nescessary" and "I do not care what happens behind that door" are only some of the nicely put phrases towards them.
Why is this difference while sharing a common place of work. Is that door so thick we can not see through it any more?
I respect the CC for what they are and what they do, I wouldn't ever dream of going back there myself, however the same goes for the work I am trying to do with my colleagues up front. And I can only hope that the attitude of some CC changes for the better so they understand this as well. This also goes for several flightdeck members, btw.
Several times, I've heard comments from (former) colleagues on 'the other side' blaiming a lot of things on flightdeck crew and creating their own world behind the door in which the CC are running the operation as if they were in charge, only to talk to flightdeck regarding drinks and meals (sometimes ofered to them spiked!) if already at all. Flightsafety matters are not handled accurately because of this and safety is at jeopardy. For instance, what is the use of telling flightdeck after disembarkation that a few passengers were caught smoking several times in the aft toilets and were reprimanded by CC in due course, however no action was thought to have been required, hence flightcrew was not told of the incident...
However, recently I have also heard on numerous occasions flightcrew (usually my colleague in the LHS) announcing their disgust of CC in general. Statements like "I will only tell them anything which is absolutely nescessary" and "I do not care what happens behind that door" are only some of the nicely put phrases towards them.
Why is this difference while sharing a common place of work. Is that door so thick we can not see through it any more?
I respect the CC for what they are and what they do, I wouldn't ever dream of going back there myself, however the same goes for the work I am trying to do with my colleagues up front. And I can only hope that the attitude of some CC changes for the better so they understand this as well. This also goes for several flightdeck members, btw.
Guest
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Minogue, you said:
'I cant believe the sheer arrogance that comes shining thru this thread. All flight crew are shining lights, everybody else a waste of space.'
As far as I can recall, no-one on this thread has said that. What people are saying is that:
1. There is a legal chain of command, Captain, First Officer, Flight Engineer (if they have the sense to carry one), and *then* the Cabin Crew.
2. No matter what the senior CC member thinks, or what the CC union thinks, or what the CC Management thinks, the Captain has overall authority on the aircraft, and that includes the cabin and passengers
3. It is not the place of any subordinate to berate any one of a higher position. They may disagree with what their superior says or does, and when it comes to Flight Safety, then there is obviously a responsibility to make their views known, but it is *not* the responsibility of any CC member to decide who does and who does not sit in any particular seat in the cabin.
4. Any flight deck crew member has (usually) many years of experience both in aviation and in man management. We are all too fully aware of any commercial implications of any decision or action we take, and whilst we should listen to others views, like from the senior CC member, we maybe have different priorities. If a Captain on a longhaul flight decides that his first officer should take his main meal in the passenger cabin, because he will be rested and fed upon his return to the flight deck, then CC have absolutely no input in this.
You then go on to say:
'For god sake look at yourselves in the mirror and remember that you are just humans after all not some master race. treat people with respect and you will earn the respect many posters here think they are entitled to by right.'
My colleagues that I regularly fly with fully realise that respect must be earned. Authority, however, does not. In my 25 year flying career I have always treated the CC with the respect that their attitude, actions and experience dictate that they should get. Sadly, in common with many of the other posters on this thread, I have seen that in the last few years this attitude is not widespread amongst many CC.
You then said:
'Come on silent majority of decent people who happen to be pilots, repudiate these bigots before they give the whole profession a bad name'
Just my observation, and I know it's wrong to generalise, but in Big Airways *most* (not all) of the bigots tend to be long serving CC with an axe to grind.
regards
Two Tun
'I cant believe the sheer arrogance that comes shining thru this thread. All flight crew are shining lights, everybody else a waste of space.'
As far as I can recall, no-one on this thread has said that. What people are saying is that:
1. There is a legal chain of command, Captain, First Officer, Flight Engineer (if they have the sense to carry one), and *then* the Cabin Crew.
2. No matter what the senior CC member thinks, or what the CC union thinks, or what the CC Management thinks, the Captain has overall authority on the aircraft, and that includes the cabin and passengers
3. It is not the place of any subordinate to berate any one of a higher position. They may disagree with what their superior says or does, and when it comes to Flight Safety, then there is obviously a responsibility to make their views known, but it is *not* the responsibility of any CC member to decide who does and who does not sit in any particular seat in the cabin.
4. Any flight deck crew member has (usually) many years of experience both in aviation and in man management. We are all too fully aware of any commercial implications of any decision or action we take, and whilst we should listen to others views, like from the senior CC member, we maybe have different priorities. If a Captain on a longhaul flight decides that his first officer should take his main meal in the passenger cabin, because he will be rested and fed upon his return to the flight deck, then CC have absolutely no input in this.
You then go on to say:
'For god sake look at yourselves in the mirror and remember that you are just humans after all not some master race. treat people with respect and you will earn the respect many posters here think they are entitled to by right.'
My colleagues that I regularly fly with fully realise that respect must be earned. Authority, however, does not. In my 25 year flying career I have always treated the CC with the respect that their attitude, actions and experience dictate that they should get. Sadly, in common with many of the other posters on this thread, I have seen that in the last few years this attitude is not widespread amongst many CC.
You then said:
'Come on silent majority of decent people who happen to be pilots, repudiate these bigots before they give the whole profession a bad name'
Just my observation, and I know it's wrong to generalise, but in Big Airways *most* (not all) of the bigots tend to be long serving CC with an axe to grind.
regards
Two Tun
