More madness at BA.
Guest
Posts: n/a
More madness at BA.
The situation between pilots and cabin crew at BA becomes more farcical as each week goes by. Here are 2 of the latest examples:
1. A Senior First Officer on the 747-400 fleet has been suspended because he moved his wife into first class.
2. A stewardess has reported a shorthaul Captain for being a pervert because he insisted that she wore her crotch strap whilst on the jump seat, as is required by Flight Crew Orders.
The problem isn't so much about the working relationship between cabin crew and pilots but about the complete lack of back-bone of the Flight Operations management. None of them want to stick up for their team.
It is now politically incorrect to challenge the cabin crew or their management. Cabin Crew rule the roost at BA and good luck to them because it is our pilot managers who have allowed the situation to develop.
If a pilot at BA is reported by a member of cabin crew, he/she is withdrawn from flying duties whilst the investigation is conducted. The accuser, however, continues
to work. Surely they are also needed for the investigation?
For those of you considering joining this "happy" outfit - beware!
1. A Senior First Officer on the 747-400 fleet has been suspended because he moved his wife into first class.
2. A stewardess has reported a shorthaul Captain for being a pervert because he insisted that she wore her crotch strap whilst on the jump seat, as is required by Flight Crew Orders.
The problem isn't so much about the working relationship between cabin crew and pilots but about the complete lack of back-bone of the Flight Operations management. None of them want to stick up for their team.
It is now politically incorrect to challenge the cabin crew or their management. Cabin Crew rule the roost at BA and good luck to them because it is our pilot managers who have allowed the situation to develop.
If a pilot at BA is reported by a member of cabin crew, he/she is withdrawn from flying duties whilst the investigation is conducted. The accuser, however, continues
to work. Surely they are also needed for the investigation?
For those of you considering joining this "happy" outfit - beware!
Guest
Posts: n/a
The new FCO is familiar to all shorthaul crew, including the part about having a blanket on hand to preserve the dignity of any CC using the jumpseat. All the CC I have had on the jumpeat are also aware of it
So surely the biscuit thrower has just made herself look stupid in this instance?
So surely the biscuit thrower has just made herself look stupid in this instance?
Guest
Posts: n/a
It seems to me that a British Airways Captain isnīt in control any more. I seems that the head purser is running the show. "In case of an emergency call the no1 purser to deal with the problem" ....NOT.
It is the pilots at BA that are letting your cabincrew disrespect you. Both in salaries and dayly communications. If you donīt do anything NOW you will end up asking them what to do.
N.B. In my company our wifes(and husbands) are always listed 1st class if there is a seat available.
It is the pilots at BA that are letting your cabincrew disrespect you. Both in salaries and dayly communications. If you donīt do anything NOW you will end up asking them what to do.
N.B. In my company our wifes(and husbands) are always listed 1st class if there is a seat available.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Not pleased to read this news.
Here at easy, pilots have been suspended after accusations from cabin crew whilst accusers keep flying. All pilots reinstated,and no action taken against cc. Pilots lost out on sector pay etc.
Cant imagine the captain of a cruise ship being shown such derision by the waiters
Here at easy, pilots have been suspended after accusations from cabin crew whilst accusers keep flying. All pilots reinstated,and no action taken against cc. Pilots lost out on sector pay etc.
Cant imagine the captain of a cruise ship being shown such derision by the waiters
Guest
Posts: n/a
what bothers me is that in neither of these incidients, does it appear that any member of the cabin crew, mentioned anything at the time to the pilot concerned. iam sure that if they did, things would have been different. instead they take their two faced, sniviling, anti pilot "they earn more than us" attitude away with them at the end of the flight, and head straight to the nearest lawyer. ps, how the story would have been different, had any of the cabin crew up-graded a relative or a friend, me thinks !!!
basically it seems to me that the cabin crew are spineless.
basically it seems to me that the cabin crew are spineless.
Guest
Posts: n/a
eezypilot said :'Cant imagine the captain of a cruise ship being shown such derision by the waiters '
That, despite the situations described above, is a disgusting attitude to your cabin crew eezypilot. They are your Safety Officers down the back. I'm sure they'd love to hear of your attitude to them is that.
That, despite the situations described above, is a disgusting attitude to your cabin crew eezypilot. They are your Safety Officers down the back. I'm sure they'd love to hear of your attitude to them is that.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Wonder when more flight deck crew will realise that airlines appoint a "cabin captain" to look after the back end. Leave them ALONE to do their job and then you will have NO problems. Nearly every time the flight crew interferes with the back end operations (except emergency situations), they muddy the waters and many times create animosities. The Captain is "God" idea went to heaven a long time ago.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Crew Rest, the above comments are not "disgusting". The "waiters" on a cruise ship are as responsible for safety as the cabin crew on an aircraft. (Although standards may not be as high!)
In both cases, however, the Captain is in charge, and deserves the respect their experience and promotion affords them.
The cabin crew, in the cases above, should be reprimanded for their actions. The accusations should have never reached the flight crew.
In both cases, however, the Captain is in charge, and deserves the respect their experience and promotion affords them.
The cabin crew, in the cases above, should be reprimanded for their actions. The accusations should have never reached the flight crew.
Guest
Posts: n/a
BoeingBoy1,beautifully put!
This latest incident just goes to show the contempt we, as Pilots, are treated with by cabin crew. It throws CRM right out of the window; cabin crew desperately trying to 'get one over' on flight crew,creating a huge gulf of mistrust and suspicion.Hardly ideal if the **** hits the fan in a real emergency,is it?
Trouble is,cabin crew can make these allegations knowing they are beyond reproach,and so happily endanger/ruin a PROFESSIONAL Pilot's career.The C4 Dispatches program,made by a bitter (former) biscuit-thrower is one such example.
This sort of behaviour is commonplace in the low-cost airline I work for,but I put this down to the fact we recruit from the bottom of the barrel.
I am therefore surprised and saddened that the "let's get a Pilot susended" attitude has found its way into BA,who I used to think had very good cabin crew.Surely it is about time the c/c were made accountable for their actions?
Best of luck to the two gentlemen concerned!
This latest incident just goes to show the contempt we, as Pilots, are treated with by cabin crew. It throws CRM right out of the window; cabin crew desperately trying to 'get one over' on flight crew,creating a huge gulf of mistrust and suspicion.Hardly ideal if the **** hits the fan in a real emergency,is it?
Trouble is,cabin crew can make these allegations knowing they are beyond reproach,and so happily endanger/ruin a PROFESSIONAL Pilot's career.The C4 Dispatches program,made by a bitter (former) biscuit-thrower is one such example.
This sort of behaviour is commonplace in the low-cost airline I work for,but I put this down to the fact we recruit from the bottom of the barrel.
I am therefore surprised and saddened that the "let's get a Pilot susended" attitude has found its way into BA,who I used to think had very good cabin crew.Surely it is about time the c/c were made accountable for their actions?
Best of luck to the two gentlemen concerned!
Guest
Posts: n/a
411A,
What you seem to have missed in your note about pilots interfering, is that the CAPTAIN is actually in COMMAND of the aeroplane. There has to be co-operation between the front end and the CC otherwise the whole operation will fall apart.
Whilst I do not doubt that the cabin staff may be able to put your hands on the comfort blankets down the back a lot faster than the captain, I would suggest that his/her grasp of the aircraft operation as a whole is a lot better than most cabin staff. His/her instructions should be obeyed as long as the crew are on the aircraft and any disagreement should be resolved on the ground, with or without the help of respective line managers.
If this deplorable state continues, it will not be long before the Captain's instructions are treated as suggestions and open to negotiation instead of lawful commands given to subordinates.
Doc C.
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
What you seem to have missed in your note about pilots interfering, is that the CAPTAIN is actually in COMMAND of the aeroplane. There has to be co-operation between the front end and the CC otherwise the whole operation will fall apart.
Whilst I do not doubt that the cabin staff may be able to put your hands on the comfort blankets down the back a lot faster than the captain, I would suggest that his/her grasp of the aircraft operation as a whole is a lot better than most cabin staff. His/her instructions should be obeyed as long as the crew are on the aircraft and any disagreement should be resolved on the ground, with or without the help of respective line managers.
If this deplorable state continues, it will not be long before the Captain's instructions are treated as suggestions and open to negotiation instead of lawful commands given to subordinates.
Doc C.
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Doctor Cruces (edited 26 April 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Why not fight fire with fire...... e.g. if you should find that one of these harridans is part of your crew, during the pre-flight briefing why not ask them the most obscure questions w.r.t SEPS, etc, i.e. get them on the back-foot ... and if they can't find the answers then they're off the flight - not forgetting of course to accordingly follow this up with a report to their manager - as well as passing the word around to your fellow flight-crew.
That said, should the CSD / Purser object to you asking what might appear to be 'damning' questions you can always site that magic 'S' word (i.e. safety) as the prime consideration, in that every member of your crew needs to be completely au fait with the SEP's etc - that's their job after all, and it's only reasonable that they should know both the drills and where the equipment is - and you'd be amazed how many don't, especially when under pressure of scrutiny.
Now I actually know a skipper who does this pre-flight 'inquisitorial' and it surely does seem to strike fear into those of whom he asks the questions - and, like it or hate it, it certainly confirms most forthrightly precisely who is the boss aboard the a/c.
Ps. That said, I'd then take care with any vitals then supplied to you from the cabin !
That said, should the CSD / Purser object to you asking what might appear to be 'damning' questions you can always site that magic 'S' word (i.e. safety) as the prime consideration, in that every member of your crew needs to be completely au fait with the SEP's etc - that's their job after all, and it's only reasonable that they should know both the drills and where the equipment is - and you'd be amazed how many don't, especially when under pressure of scrutiny.
Now I actually know a skipper who does this pre-flight 'inquisitorial' and it surely does seem to strike fear into those of whom he asks the questions - and, like it or hate it, it certainly confirms most forthrightly precisely who is the boss aboard the a/c.
Ps. That said, I'd then take care with any vitals then supplied to you from the cabin !
Guest
Posts: n/a
Doctor Cruces--
Agree completely with your comments. As an airline Captain for over twenty five years, have had little trouble with CC, as I have left them alone to do their job. When my wife travels with me she sits in the seat that she has beed assigned (according to the ticket) unless the cabin chief offers an upgrade when space is available. She always has been so accomodated. For a F/O (no less) to arbitrarily upgrade his wife without asking the CC chief is just asking for trouble, IMHO.
Agree completely with your comments. As an airline Captain for over twenty five years, have had little trouble with CC, as I have left them alone to do their job. When my wife travels with me she sits in the seat that she has beed assigned (according to the ticket) unless the cabin chief offers an upgrade when space is available. She always has been so accomodated. For a F/O (no less) to arbitrarily upgrade his wife without asking the CC chief is just asking for trouble, IMHO.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Whilst I believe all the crew take an a/c from A - B some cabin crew should stop and think!
Don't forget all our lives on board an a/c in flight, rest almost solely with the flight deck crew.
Some cabin crew have problems with this concept and try to get even by dropping the flight deck in it.
Shame as nearly all the hard work the CRM trainers have put in gets undermined instantly.
Don't forget all our lives on board an a/c in flight, rest almost solely with the flight deck crew.
Some cabin crew have problems with this concept and try to get even by dropping the flight deck in it.
Shame as nearly all the hard work the CRM trainers have put in gets undermined instantly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
411A,
Completely agree with yr last post. Knowing who is in charge is very important but courtesy also plays a part. For an F/O to upgrade his wife without even asking the Cabin Chief is rude in the extreme (not to discount all the other good reasons either) and I'm not surprised the CC was upset.
Doc C.
Completely agree with yr last post. Knowing who is in charge is very important but courtesy also plays a part. For an F/O to upgrade his wife without even asking the Cabin Chief is rude in the extreme (not to discount all the other good reasons either) and I'm not surprised the CC was upset.
Doc C.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I find this hard to believe..but if its true,the BA pilots have only themselves to blame.Not so long ago,a colleague of theirs was unfairly dismissed and subsequently died.Very little was done by the pilots union in the form of redress and even less by the BA pilots themselves.If you cant watch out for one of your own,you dont really deserve any better from anyone else do you now?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh dear. This sad sad state of affairs exists in many companies, including my beloved BA, where cabin crew genuinely believe themselves to be the professional equals of the pilots. This simply ain't so, and never should be. Obviously there is one area where all employees have an overlap of shared responsibilities, that being safety. In reality, 98-99% of the shared responsibility for safe conduct of a flight resides with the flight deck crew...whether the trip is routine OR if an emergency or abnormal event should take place.
The present bad attitude of some cabin crew people has been promulgated by mixed CRM courses, often run by cabin crew people with little or no understanding of the real work up front. I have participated in such events, and have to say that most pilots sit there quietly, allowing the cabin crew to get away with murder, verbally, instead of taking the bait. The attitude is that they (the pilots) are not professional equals, and will not enter into any debate.
And as an analogy, doctors and nurses in an operating theatre work very closely together (far more so than pilots and flight attendants). There is no doubt about who is responsible for the surgery and the anaesthesia, and the overall safety and well-being of the patient. Salaries are commensurate with responsibilities. And joint training of the 2 professions would be considered a nonsense. Can our flight attendants / cabin crew please recognise their own relative positions, and just shut up?
The present bad attitude of some cabin crew people has been promulgated by mixed CRM courses, often run by cabin crew people with little or no understanding of the real work up front. I have participated in such events, and have to say that most pilots sit there quietly, allowing the cabin crew to get away with murder, verbally, instead of taking the bait. The attitude is that they (the pilots) are not professional equals, and will not enter into any debate.
And as an analogy, doctors and nurses in an operating theatre work very closely together (far more so than pilots and flight attendants). There is no doubt about who is responsible for the surgery and the anaesthesia, and the overall safety and well-being of the patient. Salaries are commensurate with responsibilities. And joint training of the 2 professions would be considered a nonsense. Can our flight attendants / cabin crew please recognise their own relative positions, and just shut up?
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Things have not changed much since i left BA ten years ago but it it springs to mind that if BALPA was as militant as the CC union then this sort of thing would not happen.
The same could go for the ground engineers union but it is not in the nature of highly trained technical staff to take such action
to increase the "status" and there for pay such actions are the remit if the types with a need to make them selfs important and hopefully indispensable.
This is why the when i left BA the TOTAL remunaration for a longhaul junior CC member (six weeks training) was greater than that of a licenced engineer (six years training and lots of CAA exams)with three type aprovals.
The only way to get the status and pay back to what it should be is for the technical staff to get together and fight the corner for those who hold licences be they green or red.
The same could go for the ground engineers union but it is not in the nature of highly trained technical staff to take such action
to increase the "status" and there for pay such actions are the remit if the types with a need to make them selfs important and hopefully indispensable.
This is why the when i left BA the TOTAL remunaration for a longhaul junior CC member (six weeks training) was greater than that of a licenced engineer (six years training and lots of CAA exams)with three type aprovals.
The only way to get the status and pay back to what it should be is for the technical staff to get together and fight the corner for those who hold licences be they green or red.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Apparently, the SFO concerned got the okay from the Captain but the CSD refused to play along. Its sad isn't it?
As far as flight crew being reported by CC is concerned, the following story has to be the worst case in the previous 12 months:
A 777 crew were taxiing out for take-off when there was a runway change. The Captain informed the CSD that the aircraft might be too heavy to take-off on the new runway and that they might have to go back to the gate and off-load some freight.
T/O data for the new runway was calculated and the aircraft departed safely, without having to return to the gate.
Shortly after returning to London the flight crew were suspended from duty. Why? The CSD on the flight had put in a report stating that he "doubted the flight crew's technical ability" and that he "felt that his life had been put in danger". During the take-off, the CSD witnessed that the aircraft had only narrowly avoided crashing into the runway approach lights (at the departure end).
As I have already mentioned, the flight crew were withdrawn from duty whilst the investigation was carried out, yet the CSD continued to go to work.
Obviously, the investigation and examination of SESMA data proved that the Flight Crew had no case to answer. It had been a textbook departure.
No action was taken against the CSD.
No apology was made to the Flight Crew by the CSD.
It would be funny if it wasn't true.
As far as flight crew being reported by CC is concerned, the following story has to be the worst case in the previous 12 months:
A 777 crew were taxiing out for take-off when there was a runway change. The Captain informed the CSD that the aircraft might be too heavy to take-off on the new runway and that they might have to go back to the gate and off-load some freight.
T/O data for the new runway was calculated and the aircraft departed safely, without having to return to the gate.
Shortly after returning to London the flight crew were suspended from duty. Why? The CSD on the flight had put in a report stating that he "doubted the flight crew's technical ability" and that he "felt that his life had been put in danger". During the take-off, the CSD witnessed that the aircraft had only narrowly avoided crashing into the runway approach lights (at the departure end).
As I have already mentioned, the flight crew were withdrawn from duty whilst the investigation was carried out, yet the CSD continued to go to work.
Obviously, the investigation and examination of SESMA data proved that the Flight Crew had no case to answer. It had been a textbook departure.
No action was taken against the CSD.
No apology was made to the Flight Crew by the CSD.
It would be funny if it wasn't true.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dear all,
a few excerpts from a thread titled 'Aggressive Pax' written by a CC on the CC forum.
"One pax ... came the closest to punching MY purser."
"The crew member INCHARGE calmed him down."
"He was travelig on to GLS so WE obviosly RADIOED ahead just to warn them of the bully."
"Do you feel the pilots in your company support your decisions when it comes to crunch-time?"
-The crew member in charge he refers to is not the Captain.
-I didn't know CC could use the radio. They must have done as there was no mention of any flight crew on the a/c at all.
The last question above is from another CC in reply asking a few questions about how aggressive pax should be dealt with. He/she is the first person to actually mention pilots. Unfortunately it is in a doubting way. I have had an incident on board recently (a domestic flight) where the CSD entered the flight deck after the 1000' call and asked us to deal with 2 aggressive pax. We said no, but we could call the police to meet the a/c or we could go around and deal with them in the air. She asked us to call the police, and we said we trusted her judgement. Once on the ground the a/c was met by police (well done ABZ tower) and the Captain put his hat on and went down the back to deal with the pax.
The point of this rambling tale is that even though the CC appeared to have no concept of the critical stage of flight, we supported their decisions at crunch-time. And believe me, at that stage in the flight it quite literally was crunch time. And STILL they question us. Yet if the pilot community questions them they are up in arms about it.
On another note, a captain I flew with recently was saying in the crew bus that he was transfering to long haul. The CSD laughed and said he should get used to only ever talking to the other flight crew. The joke is that if the pilots want to upset and confuse the CC they should sit down on the back row of the bus with them and say 'hello, how are you?' Although it is mildly amusing that even the shorthaul CC think the long haul CC are a scary bunch, what does this have to say about our working relationships?
a few excerpts from a thread titled 'Aggressive Pax' written by a CC on the CC forum.
"One pax ... came the closest to punching MY purser."
"The crew member INCHARGE calmed him down."
"He was travelig on to GLS so WE obviosly RADIOED ahead just to warn them of the bully."
"Do you feel the pilots in your company support your decisions when it comes to crunch-time?"
-The crew member in charge he refers to is not the Captain.
-I didn't know CC could use the radio. They must have done as there was no mention of any flight crew on the a/c at all.
The last question above is from another CC in reply asking a few questions about how aggressive pax should be dealt with. He/she is the first person to actually mention pilots. Unfortunately it is in a doubting way. I have had an incident on board recently (a domestic flight) where the CSD entered the flight deck after the 1000' call and asked us to deal with 2 aggressive pax. We said no, but we could call the police to meet the a/c or we could go around and deal with them in the air. She asked us to call the police, and we said we trusted her judgement. Once on the ground the a/c was met by police (well done ABZ tower) and the Captain put his hat on and went down the back to deal with the pax.
The point of this rambling tale is that even though the CC appeared to have no concept of the critical stage of flight, we supported their decisions at crunch-time. And believe me, at that stage in the flight it quite literally was crunch time. And STILL they question us. Yet if the pilot community questions them they are up in arms about it.
On another note, a captain I flew with recently was saying in the crew bus that he was transfering to long haul. The CSD laughed and said he should get used to only ever talking to the other flight crew. The joke is that if the pilots want to upset and confuse the CC they should sit down on the back row of the bus with them and say 'hello, how are you?' Although it is mildly amusing that even the shorthaul CC think the long haul CC are a scary bunch, what does this have to say about our working relationships?