More madness at BA.
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COWPAT--
Twenty, give or take two. Many pilots (and cabin crew as well) are primadonnas and generally only make life difficult for others. Airline flying actually can be very enjoyable, but some just have to stick their oar in and muddy the waters. Cannot comment directly on BA as I don't work there but they sure do seem to have their problems. And, let us not forget CX, now there is a barrel of snakes.
Twenty, give or take two. Many pilots (and cabin crew as well) are primadonnas and generally only make life difficult for others. Airline flying actually can be very enjoyable, but some just have to stick their oar in and muddy the waters. Cannot comment directly on BA as I don't work there but they sure do seem to have their problems. And, let us not forget CX, now there is a barrel of snakes.
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Well, I certainly agree with your suggestion that airline flying could/should be enjoyable, but it always takes at least 2 to party, and I think that is the essence of this thread. I don't muddy the waters as you put it, but to follow your suggestion of "just leave them alone completely" is, in my opinion poor leadership from the Captain.
Its quite possible to be involved without in any way interfering.
Rgds
COWPAT
Edited for spelling
[This message has been edited by COWPAT (edited 29 April 2001).]
Its quite possible to be involved without in any way interfering.
Rgds
COWPAT
Edited for spelling
[This message has been edited by COWPAT (edited 29 April 2001).]
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If whats being said re-incidents at BA are true then it certainly sounds like that company morale must be one of contempt and mistrust?
Personally in my short career I havent personally meet with any malice or contempt with working with our respected and professional cabin crew.
I think respect towards any company employee whatever their position has to be a comman decency towards anyone working towards the same goals, the safety and comfort of those who are after all providing many of us with the means of employment in the first place.
Ultimately the safety of all flights rest on the Captains shoulders, isnt this is after all what he is being paid for.
Or am I being naive?
Why would any airline allow this situation arise in the first place?
Maybe it goes some way in explaining why an ex-BA C/A would go to such extremes in collaborating with the media in entraping BA pilots in exposing BA pilots as a bunch of p********?
Sadly it sounds like many of us have to watch our 6 oclocks all of the time.
Personally in my short career I havent personally meet with any malice or contempt with working with our respected and professional cabin crew.
I think respect towards any company employee whatever their position has to be a comman decency towards anyone working towards the same goals, the safety and comfort of those who are after all providing many of us with the means of employment in the first place.
Ultimately the safety of all flights rest on the Captains shoulders, isnt this is after all what he is being paid for.
Or am I being naive?
Why would any airline allow this situation arise in the first place?
Maybe it goes some way in explaining why an ex-BA C/A would go to such extremes in collaborating with the media in entraping BA pilots in exposing BA pilots as a bunch of p********?
Sadly it sounds like many of us have to watch our 6 oclocks all of the time.
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More often than not, these problems can be traced back to poor management (leadership) at boardroom level. This results in various section heads taking advantage to build their own little empires and causes frustration, poor morale and a lowering of flight safety standards on the aeroplanes.
If all members of the same airline were ultimately responsible to one person or body that provided firm yet fair leadership then 99% of these problems would not exist.
Unfortunately the very people who need to stand up and be counted are invariably the same ones that are pushing the politically correct bandwagon along as fast as they can.
Quite honestly, the whole situation leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
If all members of the same airline were ultimately responsible to one person or body that provided firm yet fair leadership then 99% of these problems would not exist.
Unfortunately the very people who need to stand up and be counted are invariably the same ones that are pushing the politically correct bandwagon along as fast as they can.
Quite honestly, the whole situation leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
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Having just read this thread through in its entirety I am, like flaps40, very depressed by it all.
One or two misconceptions seem to have arisen, however, and one or two other points could, perhaps, be emphasised:-
Luckily, in my company there is a very good working relationship between cabin crew and flight crew. If there are personal differences, they can (and should) be ironed out. This will not be achieved by suspending anyone unless there is good and reliable evidence of negligence, attitude or incapacity to do the job.
One or two misconceptions seem to have arisen, however, and one or two other points could, perhaps, be emphasised:-
- Cabin crew's first priority, and the reason for them to be there, is safety
- CRM is about getting the job done, about using all resources at your disposal efficiently to secure the safe completion of the flight. It is NOT about everyone feeling warm and confortable, about not upsetting people, or making them feel valued
- The Captain, followed closely by the FO, is in overall command of the aircraft. When push comes to shove, his word goes.
- Any Captain who misuses his position or believes he is the big "I AM" will rapidly lose the respect and therefore the co-operation of the rest of his crew. This is probably a bigger safety risk than anything else.
- Any CSD who starts to feel that he/she is the "Captain of the Cabin" is a danger to air safety and consequently to the safety of the passengers he/she feels are his/her sole responsibility
- An aircraft commander must be told about any and all issues that arise during a flight that affect safety. This includes any instance of smoking in the toilets, and a cabin crew member who decides not to inform the Captain is neglecting a significant part of their job
- Any flight crew member who would like an upgrade for a relative is being just plain rude in not consulting the CSD. Yes, it may be the Captain's final decision, but not to consult the person who is responsible for allocating who works where in the cabin is ignoring their part in being one of the team.
- Similarly, it is just plain rude simply to take a bottle of water without asking. Do you know if there's been a "run" on it in the cabin? Almost certainly not. If you ask, you may be offered, say, lemonade or coke instead, because they're trying to ration out water...
- If, in the briefing, a Captain wants to "interfere" in the order of service, he can do so. He may have very good reasons for doing so. However, it is incumbent on him to state the reasons why. We're all part of the team, so let's all know why we're departing from the norm.
- Any CSD who questions or reports a member of the flight crew for "being on the runway too long" or similar incidents quoted above is getting his/her nose where it does not belong. My personal response would be "Who the Donald Duck are you to question me on that?" Similarly, nobody but nobody except suitably qualified pilots (or F/E) touch any aircraft controls, even cabin temperature controls, on my flight deck. This is an issue not only of safety, but of simple courtesy.
Luckily, in my company there is a very good working relationship between cabin crew and flight crew. If there are personal differences, they can (and should) be ironed out. This will not be achieved by suspending anyone unless there is good and reliable evidence of negligence, attitude or incapacity to do the job.
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Great posting Hugmonster. The only point I would make is that I think you have superbly highlighted the symptoms of the problem without discuusing the root cause. That invariably comes back to poor senior leadership not cultivating (and ensuring) that the right operating philosophy is passed down all the way from the top.
I can't help remembering a big poster in the line engineers building at Linton on Ouse where I did my flying training many years ago. It read simply
"The job of the RAF is to fly aeroplanes. The job of those who do not fly is to support those that do."
A bit simplistic I suppose, but can you imagine the politically correct brigades reaction to something along similar lines in an airline today.
How about
"The purpose of this airline is to make a profit by safely, courteously and efficiently transporting passengers to their destination on schedule. This is achieved through strong leadership and sound strategic planning from the Board of Directors and by effective tactical leadership from the Operations Manager, the Chief Pilot and his Line Captains. All company personnel working with or for these leaders are expected to fully support them in their duties at all times?"
Just a thought!
Edited for spelling.
[This message has been edited by COWPAT (edited 29 April 2001).]
I can't help remembering a big poster in the line engineers building at Linton on Ouse where I did my flying training many years ago. It read simply
"The job of the RAF is to fly aeroplanes. The job of those who do not fly is to support those that do."
A bit simplistic I suppose, but can you imagine the politically correct brigades reaction to something along similar lines in an airline today.
How about
"The purpose of this airline is to make a profit by safely, courteously and efficiently transporting passengers to their destination on schedule. This is achieved through strong leadership and sound strategic planning from the Board of Directors and by effective tactical leadership from the Operations Manager, the Chief Pilot and his Line Captains. All company personnel working with or for these leaders are expected to fully support them in their duties at all times?"
Just a thought!
Edited for spelling.
[This message has been edited by COWPAT (edited 29 April 2001).]
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An interesting thought Cowpat. The root of this problem is about being a team player. This doesn’t mean ‘I am a member of a team and so therefore I’m just as important as the leader and I’ll do as I damn well pleasy’, it means knowing your place and your responsibilities to the team. The Captain of an aircraft is enshrined and entrusted in law as the person who is responsible to the State, yes the State, for the safe operation of a public transport service, its good conduct, and the security and welfare of those souls aboard. The company might also wish to hold him/her accountable for the Ģ2bn insurance risk, Ģ200m hull value, its trading record and the good name and integrity of its product.
In the Captain’s crew there are those to whom specific responsibilities have been delegated, and they are responsible to the Captain for the discharge of those duties in accordance with the company’s approved operating procedures. With that delegated responsibility there is some implicit authority invested in those individuals for the conduct of their duties, they remain at all times however accountable to the Captain in lieu of the State as its licensed, approved, and regularly verified appointee.
Outside of this structure, this is a rewarding and mostly enjoyable job of work, and many Captains succeed in running a happy ship. There is no substitute for common courtesy and politeness when dealing with your crew mates, and you can easily exercise authority without rudeness or offence if you approach it in the right manner. You can even, in the words of the old maxim, tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.
That said, it does seem that cousin Nigel is having more then his fair share of problems from his colleagues amongst the cabin crew. Part of this appears to be institutionalised and a facet of the company culture that exists within BA. It certainly does seem that there is an uneven swing to the ‘sword’
of Damocles when it comes to the disciplinary process that tends to result from these unfortunate occurrences. That is something for the union to take up with the suits.
I believe the solution is for crew members responsibilities, each and every one of them, to be detailed in a common document like so many other organisations. When everyone knows where the boundary lies, disputes can be settled quickly. Good fences make good neighbours.
As to why this is not already the case in BA puzzles me. From the Machiavellian intrigue and politics that seem to permeate Big Airways, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find that this is a deliberate ploy to divide and rule, smoke and mirrors. Whilst various departments fight each other for supremacy, they miss what is being done to them elsewhere.
Beware
In the Captain’s crew there are those to whom specific responsibilities have been delegated, and they are responsible to the Captain for the discharge of those duties in accordance with the company’s approved operating procedures. With that delegated responsibility there is some implicit authority invested in those individuals for the conduct of their duties, they remain at all times however accountable to the Captain in lieu of the State as its licensed, approved, and regularly verified appointee.
Outside of this structure, this is a rewarding and mostly enjoyable job of work, and many Captains succeed in running a happy ship. There is no substitute for common courtesy and politeness when dealing with your crew mates, and you can easily exercise authority without rudeness or offence if you approach it in the right manner. You can even, in the words of the old maxim, tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.
That said, it does seem that cousin Nigel is having more then his fair share of problems from his colleagues amongst the cabin crew. Part of this appears to be institutionalised and a facet of the company culture that exists within BA. It certainly does seem that there is an uneven swing to the ‘sword’
of Damocles when it comes to the disciplinary process that tends to result from these unfortunate occurrences. That is something for the union to take up with the suits.I believe the solution is for crew members responsibilities, each and every one of them, to be detailed in a common document like so many other organisations. When everyone knows where the boundary lies, disputes can be settled quickly. Good fences make good neighbours.
As to why this is not already the case in BA puzzles me. From the Machiavellian intrigue and politics that seem to permeate Big Airways, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find that this is a deliberate ploy to divide and rule, smoke and mirrors. Whilst various departments fight each other for supremacy, they miss what is being done to them elsewhere.
Beware
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I read this in todays Observer, it's not a solution but it might help a few.
1 Work out your reasons for disliking them. Is it a matter of principle, or less fundamental? If you are working with Adolf Hitler, your attitude towards them is the least of your problems. But you have room for manoeuvre if your feelings are rooted in a personality conflict, irritation at their behaviour or the pressures of your work relationship.
2 Understand that life can be far richer if you can free yourself of loathings, and especially of contempt. Just as you don't want punch-ups at home, if you can avoid antagonism at work, you can look at the issues that really matter. Making yourself feel virtuous by making someone else the villain is a common - if perverse - habit.
3 Think through the situation from their viewpoint. If you work out why your boss shouted at you, you will gain far more insight than if you just focus on feeling badly treated. There will nearly always be some mitigating circumstances: they are under pressure, they misunderstood the situation or they were shouted at by their own boss before they had a go at you. 'The situation is a lot easier to handle this way,' says management consultant Terry Gillen. 'It's a way of taking control of your emotions. You can almost feel sorry for them.' Jo Bond of Right Management Consultants says: 'Try to work out what is making them angry or bitter by seeing them as a vulnerable child.'
4 Find something positive you can engage with and try to improve the relationship from there. Discussing your shared admiration of Barry Manilow could bring out qualities in both of you. But if you can't improve your relationship, you can still work together if you keep your emotions in check. There is considerable evidence of huge mutual loathings in the current Cabinet, but their shared desire for power puts them on course for a big election victory.
5 Be cautious about broadcasting negative feelings, however. Conservative MP Michael Ancram spoke recently of the contempt he feels for Tony Blair, but this made him seem rather childish.
6 Understand that you may dislike some people without admitting it to yourself. If you depend on someone who patronises you, for instance, you may try to pretend to yourself that you like them. Resentful pressure could build up underneath, and come out in disguised ways such as kicking the cat when you get home.
1 Work out your reasons for disliking them. Is it a matter of principle, or less fundamental? If you are working with Adolf Hitler, your attitude towards them is the least of your problems. But you have room for manoeuvre if your feelings are rooted in a personality conflict, irritation at their behaviour or the pressures of your work relationship.
2 Understand that life can be far richer if you can free yourself of loathings, and especially of contempt. Just as you don't want punch-ups at home, if you can avoid antagonism at work, you can look at the issues that really matter. Making yourself feel virtuous by making someone else the villain is a common - if perverse - habit.
3 Think through the situation from their viewpoint. If you work out why your boss shouted at you, you will gain far more insight than if you just focus on feeling badly treated. There will nearly always be some mitigating circumstances: they are under pressure, they misunderstood the situation or they were shouted at by their own boss before they had a go at you. 'The situation is a lot easier to handle this way,' says management consultant Terry Gillen. 'It's a way of taking control of your emotions. You can almost feel sorry for them.' Jo Bond of Right Management Consultants says: 'Try to work out what is making them angry or bitter by seeing them as a vulnerable child.'
4 Find something positive you can engage with and try to improve the relationship from there. Discussing your shared admiration of Barry Manilow could bring out qualities in both of you. But if you can't improve your relationship, you can still work together if you keep your emotions in check. There is considerable evidence of huge mutual loathings in the current Cabinet, but their shared desire for power puts them on course for a big election victory.
5 Be cautious about broadcasting negative feelings, however. Conservative MP Michael Ancram spoke recently of the contempt he feels for Tony Blair, but this made him seem rather childish.
6 Understand that you may dislike some people without admitting it to yourself. If you depend on someone who patronises you, for instance, you may try to pretend to yourself that you like them. Resentful pressure could build up underneath, and come out in disguised ways such as kicking the cat when you get home.
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I have been a CSD at BA for six years,I am not a Manager nor am I incharge of a flight that responsibility belongs to the people who fly the plane.My position on board is clearly laid out in my job description, I report to the Captain of the aircraft.The sittuations mentioned here, are I hope very rare.
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FCOs clearly state that Captains are to ensure no unauthorised transfer between compartments takes place once passengers have boarded. Whether this means that he can authorise such transfer is debatable. It may be that a Captain agreeing to such a transfer is laying him/her self open to disciplinary action for breach of FCOs.
What is certain is that the CSD has no authority to upgrade anyone, though many seem to think that they have.
What is certain is that the CSD has no authority to upgrade anyone, though many seem to think that they have.
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It is unbelivable to read articles from CCīs.
Of course cc seem to belive that because "CRM" is used to let every crewmwmber in the loop in case for efficient conduct of flight it does not give them the responsibility of the flight crew. What can a cc do in case of hydraulic proplem, stabilizer trim runaway, instrument switching or in case any navigational equipment brakes down.....NOTHING. Not even do any CRM work to use all available sources. I heard that few years ago pursers at SAS (scandinavian airl.) wanted to put in to their FCO ( to some FOM )that pilots fly the aircraft and are in control of its manouverings but the senior cc is in COMMAND of the cabin. Because management and UNION werenīt pu**ies they shut it up right away. And in case anyone is upgrading and the rules forbid it, WHO CARES. Only idiots would let this get to their nerves. Lets all work together as crews but donīt forget whoīs in command and has the sole responsibility of the a/c.
Of course cc seem to belive that because "CRM" is used to let every crewmwmber in the loop in case for efficient conduct of flight it does not give them the responsibility of the flight crew. What can a cc do in case of hydraulic proplem, stabilizer trim runaway, instrument switching or in case any navigational equipment brakes down.....NOTHING. Not even do any CRM work to use all available sources. I heard that few years ago pursers at SAS (scandinavian airl.) wanted to put in to their FCO ( to some FOM )that pilots fly the aircraft and are in control of its manouverings but the senior cc is in COMMAND of the cabin. Because management and UNION werenīt pu**ies they shut it up right away. And in case anyone is upgrading and the rules forbid it, WHO CARES. Only idiots would let this get to their nerves. Lets all work together as crews but donīt forget whoīs in command and has the sole responsibility of the a/c.
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SLF,
The "respect" is (or certainly desrves to be) earned through many years of examinations, financial problems and determination to fly for an airline.
Having achieved all that you can, I,m sure, appreciate how pi**ed off we become when some cc, usually with a chip on their shoulder, try to pull the rug from under us, and see abusing CRM as a convenient vehicle to do it. I have a lot of respect for cc who do their job well and are smart enough to realise where they fit into the scheme of things. Unfortunately some have double standard and are the worst exponents of CRM themselves whilst misusing it to attack flight deck. It stinks!
As for your specific comment, well thats another double standard from CC. They do it all the time for their mates, and as we are all on the same side and no harm has been done we usually let it pass. However, when a pilot avails himself of the same opportunity, then "Oh No, Captain I can't allow that. I shall have to report you to management and get you suspended." PATHETIC!"
With apologies to the millions of decent CC out there.
The "respect" is (or certainly desrves to be) earned through many years of examinations, financial problems and determination to fly for an airline.
Having achieved all that you can, I,m sure, appreciate how pi**ed off we become when some cc, usually with a chip on their shoulder, try to pull the rug from under us, and see abusing CRM as a convenient vehicle to do it. I have a lot of respect for cc who do their job well and are smart enough to realise where they fit into the scheme of things. Unfortunately some have double standard and are the worst exponents of CRM themselves whilst misusing it to attack flight deck. It stinks!
As for your specific comment, well thats another double standard from CC. They do it all the time for their mates, and as we are all on the same side and no harm has been done we usually let it pass. However, when a pilot avails himself of the same opportunity, then "Oh No, Captain I can't allow that. I shall have to report you to management and get you suspended." PATHETIC!"
With apologies to the millions of decent CC out there.
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Hug Monster.
Think how you would be in the pilots shoes. He has worked hard to be able to call him self a pilot.This takes dedication and HARD work and believe me it isnīt for everybody. Then there is the cc, who (might have a degree of somekind- but doesnīt make a difference in this job) has taken a 6-10 week seminar about service, cpr, and not least CRM (of course there is more in the seminar but I wonīt say all) and they think they are pilotīs equals. Donīt be frustrated or take this the hard way but ccīs will NEVER..... be pilotīs equals. Ofcourse hi did apologise to all the good ccīs out there. Of course there are only 1% of all ccīs this way and those who take these posts badly are the ones that fit in the category.
Think how you would be in the pilots shoes. He has worked hard to be able to call him self a pilot.This takes dedication and HARD work and believe me it isnīt for everybody. Then there is the cc, who (might have a degree of somekind- but doesnīt make a difference in this job) has taken a 6-10 week seminar about service, cpr, and not least CRM (of course there is more in the seminar but I wonīt say all) and they think they are pilotīs equals. Donīt be frustrated or take this the hard way but ccīs will NEVER..... be pilotīs equals. Ofcourse hi did apologise to all the good ccīs out there. Of course there are only 1% of all ccīs this way and those who take these posts badly are the ones that fit in the category.
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This has been meantioned a few times now, and I agree with the notion that the problem lies within the management of both departments. Between them they have created an atmosphere where the few a*****s in cc can really excell themselves, and there is little the pilots are left allowed to do about it. I can understand the rest of the cc using the new found power to get the best they can out of the situation, because quite frankly, anyone in any profession would do the same. What is needed is a change to stop these few who really cause the problems and the reason this thread exists to be stopped in their tracks.
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It's this hardening of attitudes that would make it impossible to solve the problem.
ThinAlbert seems to think that, because a pilot course is long, difficult and expensive, he automatically deserves respect.
Wrong.
Myk Hunt and ThinAlbert both seem to think that, because a CC Course takes 6-10 weeks, a CC member is not of equal worth to a flight deck member.
Wrong again.
If you treat people with respect, that respect will be returned. But if you treat CC like "Plate Layers" rather than as required members of the crew, there for the safety of the passengers, disdain to ask them before you take a bottle of water from the trolley, interrupt their briefings to tell them how you want the order of service, and generally regard them simply as nice ornaments to have around and as your bed-warmers once you arrive at the hotel, how do you expect them to react?
Yet ThinAlbert appears to feel that all the disrespect comes from aft of the flight deck door, that pilots are all honourable, noble, decent, well-behaved, sensible, law-abiding, sober and god-fearing individuals who never put a foot wrong, and are put upon by these harpies from the cabin who lack all form of decency, politeness or team spirit.
Wrong yet again.
Cabin Crew are part of your team. They do a difficult, tiring and (at times) very dangerous job. They are your first point of contact with your passengers. Treat them as part of the team. Keep them informed, ask their opinions in anything that affects or might affect their job. Be courteous to them. They will return all that with respect.
But behave as if you are beyond reproach or question, keep them in the dark, refer to them disrespectfully, treat them as low-life unintelligent scum and see what comes back instead.
If, having done all that, you still have problems, then your reputation will help you if you find yourself working with a "MY Cabin is my Empire" CSD who interferes with YOUR job, fails to inform you of someone found smoking in the toilets or whatever. And when you find someone like that, talk to them, as straight as is required.
You cannot change other people. You can change yourself. And people will react to that.
ThinAlbert seems to think that, because a pilot course is long, difficult and expensive, he automatically deserves respect.
Wrong.
Myk Hunt and ThinAlbert both seem to think that, because a CC Course takes 6-10 weeks, a CC member is not of equal worth to a flight deck member.
Wrong again.
If you treat people with respect, that respect will be returned. But if you treat CC like "Plate Layers" rather than as required members of the crew, there for the safety of the passengers, disdain to ask them before you take a bottle of water from the trolley, interrupt their briefings to tell them how you want the order of service, and generally regard them simply as nice ornaments to have around and as your bed-warmers once you arrive at the hotel, how do you expect them to react?
Yet ThinAlbert appears to feel that all the disrespect comes from aft of the flight deck door, that pilots are all honourable, noble, decent, well-behaved, sensible, law-abiding, sober and god-fearing individuals who never put a foot wrong, and are put upon by these harpies from the cabin who lack all form of decency, politeness or team spirit.
Wrong yet again.
Cabin Crew are part of your team. They do a difficult, tiring and (at times) very dangerous job. They are your first point of contact with your passengers. Treat them as part of the team. Keep them informed, ask their opinions in anything that affects or might affect their job. Be courteous to them. They will return all that with respect.
But behave as if you are beyond reproach or question, keep them in the dark, refer to them disrespectfully, treat them as low-life unintelligent scum and see what comes back instead.
If, having done all that, you still have problems, then your reputation will help you if you find yourself working with a "MY Cabin is my Empire" CSD who interferes with YOUR job, fails to inform you of someone found smoking in the toilets or whatever. And when you find someone like that, talk to them, as straight as is required.
You cannot change other people. You can change yourself. And people will react to that.