More madness at BA.
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reading these very sad examples does not give me much hope,
working my backside to achieve what most people can only dream of deserves respect whether you have four,three or two stripes.
there are two types of respect, a professional respect and personal respect.
fair enough you don't know the person well enough to give him personal respect but professional respect there must be and it must go both ways, F/D to CC and vice versa.
I feel the problem is that we are moving in extremes, on one hand we have captains of past who were treated as godlike people and what they said was right and there was no question about it. they had huge egos.
clearly we don't want this as this is against good crm principles and could compromise safety as the number one factor of accidents is not pilot error but breakdown in communication.
we want pilots who are approachable and are open to criticism without hurting their egos,i.e. good crm but on the other hand we don't want them to be treated like some cc have done so or are doing.
on one flight I was chatting to the cc and she also told me that on their course they were told to stay away from pilots.
now clearly if that is what they are being taught at an early stage then how can pilots and cc work together. agreed there are some pilots who fall into that group but its important to remember that its a few. like wise applies to cc.
the answer I feel is that cc and pilots should go on courses together and build trust between each other and realise that they are working on the same team and they have one goal the safety and comfort of passengers.
both parties are professionals and have huge responsibilities.
finally pilot unions need more power and unity to achieve recognition from airlines and other proff.
now you might say what the heck does he know, well coming from a background of doctors I have heard similar stories between doc and nurses and i feel the same principles apply.
thats my two pence worth.
working my backside to achieve what most people can only dream of deserves respect whether you have four,three or two stripes.
there are two types of respect, a professional respect and personal respect.
fair enough you don't know the person well enough to give him personal respect but professional respect there must be and it must go both ways, F/D to CC and vice versa.
I feel the problem is that we are moving in extremes, on one hand we have captains of past who were treated as godlike people and what they said was right and there was no question about it. they had huge egos.
clearly we don't want this as this is against good crm principles and could compromise safety as the number one factor of accidents is not pilot error but breakdown in communication.
we want pilots who are approachable and are open to criticism without hurting their egos,i.e. good crm but on the other hand we don't want them to be treated like some cc have done so or are doing.
on one flight I was chatting to the cc and she also told me that on their course they were told to stay away from pilots.
now clearly if that is what they are being taught at an early stage then how can pilots and cc work together. agreed there are some pilots who fall into that group but its important to remember that its a few. like wise applies to cc.
the answer I feel is that cc and pilots should go on courses together and build trust between each other and realise that they are working on the same team and they have one goal the safety and comfort of passengers.
both parties are professionals and have huge responsibilities.
finally pilot unions need more power and unity to achieve recognition from airlines and other proff.
now you might say what the heck does he know, well coming from a background of doctors I have heard similar stories between doc and nurses and i feel the same principles apply.
thats my two pence worth.
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As so many have agreed, it really is only 1% of pilots and cabin crew that cause a problem, oh and some managers. Most days it is a real pleasure to work at BA.
However there are many organisational problems too at BA that could easily be fixed !
Combine the two departments under the BA AOC holder and not under seperate directors. This is the case already for all safety related things but should be for all matters.
Give new pilots a month of working as extra cabin crew so that they understand that job!
Also give cabin crew more time to fly as extra crew on flight deck jump seats right from pilot briefing to final clearing and not just for a take off/landing. Perhaps the numerous proffiency checks (6 monthly sim) for pilots could also be watched by cabin crew. Why not even let them fly the sim as part of their company induction?
Only by working together and understanding our place in the team and each others problems can things improve.
This thread is certainly washing dirty laundry in public but the potential gains for the increase of any bottom line due to happier passenger makes it worth it.
As an aside any thing that makes our working environment more enjoyable must also be a huge plus.
Happy flying to all Cabin Crew and Pilots.
If you are perhaps part of the 1% of 'trouble makers' then please get another job!!!!!!!!
However there are many organisational problems too at BA that could easily be fixed !
Combine the two departments under the BA AOC holder and not under seperate directors. This is the case already for all safety related things but should be for all matters.
Give new pilots a month of working as extra cabin crew so that they understand that job!
Also give cabin crew more time to fly as extra crew on flight deck jump seats right from pilot briefing to final clearing and not just for a take off/landing. Perhaps the numerous proffiency checks (6 monthly sim) for pilots could also be watched by cabin crew. Why not even let them fly the sim as part of their company induction?
Only by working together and understanding our place in the team and each others problems can things improve.
This thread is certainly washing dirty laundry in public but the potential gains for the increase of any bottom line due to happier passenger makes it worth it.
As an aside any thing that makes our working environment more enjoyable must also be a huge plus.
Happy flying to all Cabin Crew and Pilots.
If you are perhaps part of the 1% of 'trouble makers' then please get another job!!!!!!!!
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HugMonster, I dont want this to degenerate into a personal slanging match but, speaking as a Long Haul Training Captain with a Flag Carrier, I feel I have to correct a couple of your errors and misconceptions.
1. Does a pilot deserve respect because he has sacrificed a significant portion of his life, spent all his money AND remortgaged his house just so he can have a shot at working for an airline? DAMN RIGHT HE DOES!
2. Do I think that all pilots are honourable and that respect should only come into the flight deck rather than out of it. NO I DO NOT,.....BUT I do believe that if you asked Joe Public who he/she held in most respect pilots or cabin crew, I think we would see 99% answer "Pilot."
3. That does not mean CC are unworthy of our respect but neither does it mean that they have the right to question the technical and professional expertise of the flight crew, or even interfere with flight deck operation which is what many posts on this thread have shown is starting to happen. We each have our jobs to do, and the number of stripes on our shoulders, the hours in our log books and our previous management experience are all things that DO deserve respect.
If you accept anything less yourself then you are selling yourself and all other pilots short.
1. Does a pilot deserve respect because he has sacrificed a significant portion of his life, spent all his money AND remortgaged his house just so he can have a shot at working for an airline? DAMN RIGHT HE DOES!
2. Do I think that all pilots are honourable and that respect should only come into the flight deck rather than out of it. NO I DO NOT,.....BUT I do believe that if you asked Joe Public who he/she held in most respect pilots or cabin crew, I think we would see 99% answer "Pilot."
3. That does not mean CC are unworthy of our respect but neither does it mean that they have the right to question the technical and professional expertise of the flight crew, or even interfere with flight deck operation which is what many posts on this thread have shown is starting to happen. We each have our jobs to do, and the number of stripes on our shoulders, the hours in our log books and our previous management experience are all things that DO deserve respect.
If you accept anything less yourself then you are selling yourself and all other pilots short.
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i work for ba as neither flight or cabin crew but work with both on a daily basis. i find both have respect for each other and other departments and it is the 1% that sours peoples opinion. i think that some people need to chill out and relise their place in the scheme of things after all it takes more than 2 departments to make an aircraft fly!
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THINALBERT,
Good posting.
Hugmonster,
I seriously doubt that you are a captain of a regional airline as you are so far off the mark with your comments.
Personalities aside, position demands respect whether cabin crew like it or not. That may be a captain of an aircraft, a surgeon in an operating theatre or a teacher in a classroom, it doesn't really matter, but without it the whole structure of society would break down. I might not like a particular doctor that I get referred to, but if he prescribed a course of treatment that was essential to my health I wouldn't say "I'm not going to take that because you haven't earn't my respect yet".
I don't know which company you work for but BA cabin crew take about 16 days to train not 6-10 weeks and during that time they are fed plenty of anti flight crew propaganda by the trainers themselves. The majority are not very bright and so, already indoctrinated by their trainers, they then go on-line and encounter a hierarchy consisting, amongst others, of bitter windsor bitches and emotionally scarred gays. On the whole, both of these groups dislike pilots for any of a variety of reasons but more often than not it boils down to simple jealousy and the feeling of lack of acheivement in their own lives.
You say that cabin crew do a "difficult, tiring and at times dangerous job". Well, one out of three ain't bad, I'd certainly agree that the job is tiring, but a lollypop lady has a more difficult and potentially dangerous job than cabin crew.
Any amount of people can claim that "It's not like that in my airline" and they'd be right but that's because it's not BA. Your average smaller airline such as BMI or KLMuk have excellant cabin crew that are trained to a high standard and do a superb job, but they are in the high turnover market and do not offer the career that BA do and a consequence, attitudes are different. They also have management that stamp out any nonsense before it can take hold - just look at the sickness rates amongst cabin crew in BA at predictable times each year (Xmas, New Year, Wimbledon etc) yet nothing gets done.
It's widely recognized that similar problems exist within some of the American carriers but their pilots are so well paid that they put up with it.
Good posting.
Hugmonster,
I seriously doubt that you are a captain of a regional airline as you are so far off the mark with your comments.
Personalities aside, position demands respect whether cabin crew like it or not. That may be a captain of an aircraft, a surgeon in an operating theatre or a teacher in a classroom, it doesn't really matter, but without it the whole structure of society would break down. I might not like a particular doctor that I get referred to, but if he prescribed a course of treatment that was essential to my health I wouldn't say "I'm not going to take that because you haven't earn't my respect yet".
I don't know which company you work for but BA cabin crew take about 16 days to train not 6-10 weeks and during that time they are fed plenty of anti flight crew propaganda by the trainers themselves. The majority are not very bright and so, already indoctrinated by their trainers, they then go on-line and encounter a hierarchy consisting, amongst others, of bitter windsor bitches and emotionally scarred gays. On the whole, both of these groups dislike pilots for any of a variety of reasons but more often than not it boils down to simple jealousy and the feeling of lack of acheivement in their own lives.
You say that cabin crew do a "difficult, tiring and at times dangerous job". Well, one out of three ain't bad, I'd certainly agree that the job is tiring, but a lollypop lady has a more difficult and potentially dangerous job than cabin crew.
Any amount of people can claim that "It's not like that in my airline" and they'd be right but that's because it's not BA. Your average smaller airline such as BMI or KLMuk have excellant cabin crew that are trained to a high standard and do a superb job, but they are in the high turnover market and do not offer the career that BA do and a consequence, attitudes are different. They also have management that stamp out any nonsense before it can take hold - just look at the sickness rates amongst cabin crew in BA at predictable times each year (Xmas, New Year, Wimbledon etc) yet nothing gets done.
It's widely recognized that similar problems exist within some of the American carriers but their pilots are so well paid that they put up with it.
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Sorry to introduce facts onto a rumour forum but;
1. The incident was on a B777 not a B747-400
2. There is rather more to it than a simple upgrade request
Airclues
1. The incident was on a B777 not a B747-400
2. There is rather more to it than a simple upgrade request
Airclues
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Thinalbert
If you are going to congratulate yourself under a different alias then you really must remember to use that different alias! I see you have now reposted as Cowpat. Unfortunately some of us saw Thinalbert congratulating Thinalbert before you rectified your finger trouble. Whoops!
If you are going to congratulate yourself under a different alias then you really must remember to use that different alias! I see you have now reposted as Cowpat. Unfortunately some of us saw Thinalbert congratulating Thinalbert before you rectified your finger trouble. Whoops!
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thinalbert - 'sacrificed' ... bit of a strong word to use for a job your all supposed to 'love' doing - according to some threads in here... we all have to give up something to do anything in this world, but I'm not sure sacrifice is the word!
A. Garcia - my, someone's upset you in the past, go have a strong G&T and consider starting the only 'lollypop admirers page' somewhere.
so much vitriol, so little time...
A. Garcia - my, someone's upset you in the past, go have a strong G&T and consider starting the only 'lollypop admirers page' somewhere.
so much vitriol, so little time...
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Not too strong a word at all my friend.
Dictionary definition of sacrifice
"the giving up of something, to gain something more important."
Seems quite appropriate to me.
Most pilots "give up" a social life, money, house, time with family (and occasionaly it also costs a relationship) in order to even have the chance of sitting in the front of an aeroplane.
What the hell is that if it isn't sacrifice.
I notice that you refer to pilots as "you" rather than "we." If you haven't experienced it, you are hardly qualified to comment on it are you?
Dictionary definition of sacrifice
"the giving up of something, to gain something more important."
Seems quite appropriate to me.
Most pilots "give up" a social life, money, house, time with family (and occasionaly it also costs a relationship) in order to even have the chance of sitting in the front of an aeroplane.
What the hell is that if it isn't sacrifice.
I notice that you refer to pilots as "you" rather than "we." If you haven't experienced it, you are hardly qualified to comment on it are you?
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I did refer to comments made on other threads by some of your contempories, and I did qualify my statement by indicating that we all have to give something up to gain anything.
But no offence meant, wouldn't want to fan these flames anymore - seems to be plenty otheras willing to do so!
But no offence meant, wouldn't want to fan these flames anymore - seems to be plenty otheras willing to do so!
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Captain Peacocks'post seems to have answered the question of why Captains are worth $200,000.00 net per year.
However when Ba Captains are being driven to suicide or to a heart attack by managerial manufactured stress I do not recall seeing the famous State supporting its delegated servant in any shape or form.
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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
However when Ba Captains are being driven to suicide or to a heart attack by managerial manufactured stress I do not recall seeing the famous State supporting its delegated servant in any shape or form.
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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
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Given some of the comments made by ThinAlbert alias Cowpat and others on this thread, I think I rest my case on the CC/FC respect business. They demand respect from Cabin Crew as of right, but make some of the most disparaging remarks I have heard of their crew colleagues.
Put simply, if you have (and voice) such an opinion, based on no experience of life abaft the flightdeck door, you have no respect for them at all. You are, therefore, deserving (and will receive) no respect from them. And I would not blame them a bit.
This does not help the situation. Get off your high horses, and instead of trying to fan your own egos, do what is professional, what will aid flight safety, what will have the flight most enjoyable for the majority.
And Alfredo? Don't call me a liar, please.
Put simply, if you have (and voice) such an opinion, based on no experience of life abaft the flightdeck door, you have no respect for them at all. You are, therefore, deserving (and will receive) no respect from them. And I would not blame them a bit.
This does not help the situation. Get off your high horses, and instead of trying to fan your own egos, do what is professional, what will aid flight safety, what will have the flight most enjoyable for the majority.
And Alfredo? Don't call me a liar, please.
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HUGMONSTER, You are missing the point. This thread is not about the 99% of cabin crew who are all the things you describe, its about the 1% who are not. If we treat that 1% well, all they do is take advantage. The Captain is and always will be responsible to the company and the state for the safe operation of the flight. To achieve this he has certain legal powers invested in him by the state and authority by the company. If any CC (or any other company personnel for that matter) try to take advantage of good nature, then they deserve to suffer the full consequences of their actions, and in my company they do. Strangely enough we do not have the problems that this thread relates to and the CC are happy, fun to work with and sociable on nightstops. Comes down to explaining to people where they stand and, of course, strong leadership.
Try it sometime.
Lets concentrate on the issue please. we are talking about a small minority, but that is what this thread is all about.
Try it sometime.
Lets concentrate on the issue please. we are talking about a small minority, but that is what this thread is all about.
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I,ve stayed out of this thread so far as my experience is largely military but I,m now flying commercial.
Speaking VERY generally I think CRM can be a licence for the unscrupulous to take advantage (as described above) and that it should be made clearer to all concerned who carries the responsibility and therefore is IN CHARGE of the the aeroplane.
That person is the Captain and I must agree with albert that anyone who crosses the line deserves all they get.
Hugmonster, your ideals are laudable but they wont work with the type of people we are talking about on this thread.
Speaking VERY generally I think CRM can be a licence for the unscrupulous to take advantage (as described above) and that it should be made clearer to all concerned who carries the responsibility and therefore is IN CHARGE of the the aeroplane.
That person is the Captain and I must agree with albert that anyone who crosses the line deserves all they get.
Hugmonster, your ideals are laudable but they wont work with the type of people we are talking about on this thread.
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Thanks, you're not COWPAT as well are you?
Hugmonster, Just so that we can compare our relevant experiences of operating with cabin crew.
I have 10000+ hours of which over 8000 have been spent on long haul commercial pax operations, on aeroplanes with MTOW in excess of 100,000kg and arrying up to 16 crew.
Over 6000 of that 8000 hours have been in the LHS and over 3000 of that as a trainer.
Now, Looking at your web page at
http://www.hugmonster.com/ click on "about hugmonster"
Can you please answer the following questions.
1. How much command time do you have on aeroplanes with more than 19 pax seats.
2. How much command time do you have on public transport aeroplanes over 20000kg
3. How many cabin crew regularly fly as a part of your crew.
4. Given the answers to question 1, 2, and 3
How qualified do you think you are to be expounding such strong opinions on this forum.
Please, no offence is intended, but I strongly suggest that you keep your tree hugging for your cub scouts, they will appreciate it much more.
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]
Hugmonster, Just so that we can compare our relevant experiences of operating with cabin crew.
I have 10000+ hours of which over 8000 have been spent on long haul commercial pax operations, on aeroplanes with MTOW in excess of 100,000kg and arrying up to 16 crew.
Over 6000 of that 8000 hours have been in the LHS and over 3000 of that as a trainer.
Now, Looking at your web page at
http://www.hugmonster.com/ click on "about hugmonster"
Can you please answer the following questions.
1. How much command time do you have on aeroplanes with more than 19 pax seats.
2. How much command time do you have on public transport aeroplanes over 20000kg
3. How many cabin crew regularly fly as a part of your crew.
4. Given the answers to question 1, 2, and 3
How qualified do you think you are to be expounding such strong opinions on this forum.
Please, no offence is intended, but I strongly suggest that you keep your tree hugging for your cub scouts, they will appreciate it much more.
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by THINALBERT (edited 01 May 2001).]