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Uni or not? (Merged 2013)

Old 21st Jun 2015, 11:43
  #121 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13,781
In my opinion, if you want to be a professional pilot, go for pilot training. If you want to be an airline manager, go for the management MSc. Or, pursue an aeronautical engineering career.

But, right now, pick what you want to do with the next 5-10 years and throw everything into that. It's time to make a decision, not keep hedging your bets.

You are too young to worry about age.

Changes are possible later, but if you want to manage pilots, first be a very good pilot. If you want to manage engineers, first be a very good engineer. Going straight into a management degree is a route into business management, not functional management.
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Old 21st Jun 2015, 11:59
  #122 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 179
I have a BSc in Aeronautical Management (+Erasmus exchange experience) and a PPL and I am 22. I was thinking the same (doing a Msc in Cranfield) but then I realized it was better to go straight to my ATPLs (BGS) and working at the same time. You have got a uni degree, something that a lot of pilots don't have these days, so you are good enough!

I encourage you to carry on your pilot training modularly as you are young and you can get aviation experience which will be invaluable once you get your fATPL. By the way, BGS + PAT (Bournemouth)!

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Old 29th Jun 2015, 19:11
  #123 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Ireland ,Dublin
Age: 25
Posts: 37
Decided to take the job, got myself an apprenticeship(Electrician). I've gotten into the right company in terms of making money, for a first year I made quiet a bit! Can't say I've enjoyed it, it's awful work.

Apart from the money major skill sets you'll learn while working, from my brief time in college & General education you'd want to be doing a lot of stuff outside of your regular course to pick most of them up.
Becoming fully qualified is a key to succes now, the qualified guys were earning €1100 after tax a week!(that's max) mostly pulling out €800 was the norm. Putting in the work & hours all the same, not easy.. So what EI-Flyer said, it worked for him! And plenty of others. another 2 years and I'll be there money wise to start saving more!

Also: Keep and eye out for maintaince work as an apprentice, you'll have great joy finding a Jem job like that! (Not having to bust some serious On a site).
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Old 3rd Aug 2015, 18:19
  #124 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Midlands
Posts: 1
Question Advice

I'm new here and just wanted some advice on undertaking a degree.

I have recently been offered a place on the CTC Wings Integrated ATPL programme. I have completed my A-levels and have just attained a HNC in Mechanical Engineering through an apprenticeship scheme with an aerospace company. I intend to complete my PPL (A) before I embark on the CTC Wings programme (yet to be confirmed). I am concerned I may be at a disadvantage not having a degree. But I believe CTC Wing's have a good placement record even though there is no guarantee of a job. It would also depend on the time I come out of training and also the current climate in 18 months approx.

Would it be worthwhile doing the BSc Degree in Professional Aviation Pilot Practice? I am aware it is a significant cost along with the cost of training.

If you had two people with exactly the same qualities achieving the same % (no retakes) carrying out their ATPL exams and passing the different stages of flight training successfully. The only way you could differentiate these two individuals is through their personal/work experience and also their qualifications to date. I am assuming BA would lean towards the person with a degree obviously demonstrating the right aptitude/personal qualities.

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Last edited by PPJD; 5th Aug 2015 at 20:03.
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Old 7th Sep 2015, 09:00
  #125 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,266
Have you considered the CTC scheme which offers a degree alongside ATPL? Doing a degree in pilot studies prior to ATPL training is a waste of time IMHO, as much of the information is subsequently duplicated, it is at great expense, and having 'any old degree' does not say as much about you as having a specific degree in another field eg philosophy, engineering, mathematics etc. which shows there is more to you than just aeroplanes and that you are able to apply yourself to a far more rigorous academic standard.

A degree can also be a back up career if your career as a pilot doesn't work out straight away, or at all.

I really believe the Pro Pilot studies degree is a a degree invented by universities to satisfy demand by students, not industry, which seems like the tail wagging the dog to me, and airlines do not usually consider that a candidate with an ATPL and PPS is necessarily any better than an ATPL with any other degree. Ask yourself: do you think a degree in PPS will truly help you a) get a flying job, or b) get a non-flying job, or c) in life in general?
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Old 7th Sep 2015, 15:48
  #126 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
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which offers a degree
No it doesn't, it offers a "foundation degree", which is academically marginal, and of similar value to the old HNC. In fact I think I'd rate PPJD's HNC in mechanical engineering more highly, academically, than a BSc in "pilot practice".

A degree can also be a back up career if your career as a pilot doesn't work out straight away, or at all.
Generally speaking, this is also untrue. Most degrees are just a stepping stone to gaining significant additional experience towards, maybe, eventually, a professional qualification. Also if you do a degree, and then a few years flying training - the bottom drops out of the flying job market again - you're competing for trainee positions against people who have just graduated and whose study skills and degree education are 2 years fresher.

I really believe the Pro Pilot studies degree is a a degree invented by universities to satisfy demand by students
Yes. Airlines want pilots: a few third world countries like the USA think that a degree matters, but don't care what in - but in Europe certainly nobody cares and want to know how good a pilot you are.

The situation tends to be like this - young man or woman wants to be a pilot, but needs a loan as they're too impatient to earn as they train slowly. Parents, who come from another era when degrees had very different significance, want their child to have a degree. So, the solution is a "pilot studies degree", that frees up loan money, child gets to fly, parents see a degree happening.

I was part of the team that puts one such together - but we went for the full RAeS accredited Aero-Eng degree, and embedded a PPL in it. I think that around two thirds of our graduates went to engineering careers, and about a third to professional flying training. But the concept of "backup" was not there and we didn't encourage it - they were getting a broad education, and heading to the career they wanted. I was quite open with those who had no interest in an engineering career however, that they were wasting my time and their money and should just clear off and get on a professional flying course. Most of them ignored me until after they'd graduated.
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Old 7th Sep 2015, 16:06
  #127 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 866
You can never say what an airline wants or is looking for because that can change as managers and/or policy changes and can even change according to who is interviewing you.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:06
  #128 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
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True, of-course, with absolutely any job in any profession. There's often a difference between what's in the paperwork, and what's going to be truly assessed in an interview.

For example - when I used to recruit PhD students in aeronautical engineering, I'd give the interviewees a model of a flexwing microlight and ask them to explain the flight mechanics. I knew jolly well they wouldn't have a clue - what I wanted to see was how well they could reason and explain their thinking when presented with a totally unexpected problem. I didn't actually care if they knew how a flexwing worked (in fact, I'd rather they didn't). But there's no way I could reasonably put that in the job spec.

Similarly, as you point out - on Monday the airline interviewer may regard graduates as jumped up little sods with an inflated opinion of their own worth, and dislikes them on principle, whilst on Tuesday it may be somebody else who has a degree, enjoyed it, and thinks that it makes him a better pilot and so prefers graduates. You just can't plan for that.

Basically, concentrate on being the best pilot you can be!
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 10:52
  #129 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
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Hi GtE - you have put more meat on the bones of my limited understanding of the various schemes offered - I agree that a 'foundation degree' has limited worth, but if all you want is a BSc after your name, or a degree for degree's sake (and are considering Pro pilot studies to achieve this), the CTC scheme seems a more cost effective option; but one I don't think has much value or benefit in terms of producing better FOs than the regular ATPL. Maybe airlines would disagree but as a line Captain I am not convinced. (I don't actually recommend spending 50K just for some vanity letters after your name, btw!)

Degree for back-up; perhaps my wording was off but I didn't mean to imply that having a degree gives you instant access to an alternative career; but if you are after the 'Uni' experience then why not do something which will give you that alternative stepping stone to entry-level positions in another field if flying doesn't work out? If you do Pro Pilot Studies and don't fly then it is pretty much a waste of three years, isn't it? Whereas something like mathematics, journalism, engineering etc. could provide an alternative path.
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Old 21st Sep 2015, 00:58
  #130 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asia
Posts: 284
get a degree, my advice : in accounting, MBA or IT eventually.
In my airline I work in management thanks to my degree (though, connections are more important).
If you need to climb the ladder you will need a master degree soon or late. It's impossible to learn such skills at this level (accounting or business) without diploma. Employers do not have time to teach you basics things.
I fly less but have more money and do not have to pay for working anymore (i make others pay now hihi).
pilot licence is... like a driving licence, you may lose, may have it revoked etc..
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Old 22nd Sep 2015, 20:01
  #131 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Lahore
Posts: 4
Hi everybody,

My name's Shujaa, first post here on the forum. I'm kind of stuck in a similar dilemna: I'm a British citizen currently residing in Pakistan, and currently studying the equivalent of A levels here (science subjects - no Mathematics).

My plan was till recently to complete my higher secondary education, and join CTC or OAA to do my fATPL / MPL. My parents are reluctant for me to enter this field, and become jobless after getting my fATPL due to the current job situation. They want me to continue in a medical university and go for my MBBS degree.

After reading this thread from top to bottom: I've concluded that it is useful to get a degree, for something to fall back on and for obvious experience reasons.

Now my queries: Will getting a degree in MBBS help me in finding a job if I choose to start my flying after uni?

And what about the degrees offers by CTC / OAA during your training? BSc Honours in Air Transport Management with Airline Pilot Training.

And if not, what else advice should I keep in mind?

Many many thanks
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Old 3rd Oct 2015, 08:51
  #132 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Sydney
Posts: 227

You won't get a job in anything if you dither and dabble. MBBS entry is extremely competitive and will require straight As at GCE A levels. Also not everyone has the ability to be a pilot, and hard work will be necessary to complete training. Suggest you focus on ONE career. Getting your education and training finished will be challenging enough.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 12:18
  #133 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
Uni Vs Flying

Hi There,
long time reader, first time poster here.
Basically, I decided I wanted to be a pilot around two years ago, whilst at college. I didn't have the funds (obviously) and wasn't in a position to have my parents put anything on the line to secure a loan so I decided to go to uni, get a degree to get a job to eventually get myself in a position to then apply for flight school. Also, It gives me a back up option if things go to pot.
I'm currently studying electrical engineering. I have always enjoyed electronics and technology and I'm just about to go into my first year exams. BUT, I've not enjoyed the course and i'm skeptical about the exams.
If I were to fail the year I'm thinking about risking it and just applying to a flight school. What I want to know is will it look bad on my part if I have to tell them I failed my first year at uni? Will it affect my chances at all?
Thank you all for your time
Old 24th May 2016, 04:43
  #134 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sydney
Posts: 11
Mate you need to make up your mind Medicine or Flying they are two different professions. Not sure what you are doing in Pakistan after being a British Citizen.
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Old 24th May 2016, 11:32
  #135 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13,781
Eager - you're replying to a 9 month old post. And there are loads of people with joint UK / Pakistani nationality: a relic of empire.

Gram - the first year of any engineering degree is horrible as they bring everybody up to the same standard in maths and engineering science. It gets a lot more fun after that. Working as an engineer is also a lot more fun than studying it.

If you want to be a pilot, learn to fly. There's a University Air Squadron attached to Sheffield, and I'm sure that there are gliding clubs and the like as well. Your student fees are massively greater than a PPL, which is the only sensible first step towards becoming a professional pilot. Doing a PPL will tell you if you have the motivation and aptitude: nothing else will.

Forget this nonsense about "applying to flight school", unless you're a complete halfwit, which you're not if you got into a Russell Group university, the only questions that'll be asked will be can you afford it, and can you pass a class 1 medical.

Talking of which, get a class 1 medical before you commit to anything else.

And don't discount the possibility of doing engineering for a living, whilst flying for fun.

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 24th May 2016 at 12:05.
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Old 7th Jul 2016, 05:47
  #136 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 192
Just for balance:
I come from the opposite side of the academic tracks to GtE but I couldn't agree more with his last few posts.
I would add that unless you are John Travolta you cannot buy the experience of commanding "heavy metal".
Most things in life are Risk v Benefit and Uni is a huge benefit. There is a risk attached however. I've always believed in terms of furthering your pilot career you should go for what you want and don't go for what you don't. The '74 oil crisis, 9/11, SARS and other events has taught me to go for it as soon as you can. There must be some who made the perfectly valid decision to go to Uni 3 years ago rather than immediately for the BA FPP. They are now, as they graduate,anxiously waiting to hear when and more importantly IF the FPP 16 will happen. They could have been jetting around in the P2 seat of an A320 by now.
No criticism intended,who knows what will happen in the future I just want to help people make logical decisions with as much evidence as possible.

Last edited by sudden twang; 7th Jul 2016 at 05:59.
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Old 13th Jul 2016, 20:38
  #137 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1
Is uni -> graduate job the best way to get the required funds for ATPL training or is there a better way? I'm keeping in mind the 40K of student debt you'd have after graduating and also the 3/4 years of studying when you could be earning money instead.

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Old 18th Jul 2016, 21:08
  #138 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13,781
Probably not - train for a much needed skill like plumbing, cooking or building, and go that way if you don't really care about the degree subject and want an earner and fallback.
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Old 20th Jul 2016, 11:05
  #139 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: england
Posts: 4
Advice appreciated from Pilots in the game

Hi All,

I am 30 and am considering a career change from a finance professional (Accountant) to a Pilot.

I have a few questions and would be grateful of any input:

1) I have applied for the Easyjet & Aer Lingus Cadet schemes however the chances of being accepted I appreciate are slim. With this, would it be a good or bad idea to fund the training myself?

2) If after paying out the best part of 80-100k on training what are the realistic chances of getting a job and general career prospects?

3) What is the money like for new cadets and when does the money start improving?

4) And probably most importantly, would you recommend this career or stick to what I'm doing and complete the PPL for fun?

Many thanks in advance for you advice.
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Old 29th Jul 2016, 10:16
  #140 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 13,781
Do a PPL first Ryan, it'll answer most of your questions and either set you up for an amazing hobby, set you up for a future professional career, or show you that it's not for you. Whichever, it'll be money well spent.

What's this got to do with having a degree?
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