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Stephen,
That's good to here that you provide a forum for the members who don't wish to hear the opinions' of those that disagree - I'm sure you have read that many don't agree with you regarding contrary opinions. However perhaps if you have another $18,000 this financial year you could advertise it to your members to prevent their angst at hearing the opposing opinions.
ALAEA Fed Sec: We have a forum of our own but without people providing other viewpoints the threads tend to just wane off through lack of interest. I just want to thank those non members who are not in agreement with LAMEs for keeping this and other LAME threads popular.... It helps
That's good to here that you provide a forum for the members who don't wish to hear the opinions' of those that disagree - I'm sure you have read that many don't agree with you regarding contrary opinions. However perhaps if you have another $18,000 this financial year you could advertise it to your members to prevent their angst at hearing the opposing opinions.
ALAEA Fed Sec: We have a forum of our own but without people providing other viewpoints the threads tend to just wane off through lack of interest. I just want to thank those non members who are not in agreement with LAMEs for keeping this and other LAME threads popular.... It helps
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 8th Jun 2008 at 13:35.
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PAF
You can post as much crap as you like in this forum as that is your right. You need to realise the reason for our rage is personal. We have done everything this pack of A***Holes have asked us to do, despite knowing the eventual harm it would cause, without a fuss. Whilst our whole work environment has crumbled about us we kept working hard to keep the flying public flying and tried to rectify something out of this absolute mess D.C. M.H. and co had led us into.
I will say this once and once only so pin your ears back and listen.
EVERYONE IS CALLING THIS AN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE, IN FACT IT IS JUST A BUNCH OF ENGINEERS CARRYING OUT THEIR JOB USING STUPID PROCEDURES WRITTEN BY IGNORANT MANAGERS WHO HAVEN'T THE FOGGIEST IDEA ABOUT LAME'S OR WHAT OUR JOB INVOLVES. TO THIS END...
FOLLOWING THEIR GUIDELINES AND WORKING TO THEIR RULES, WITHOUT OUR GOODWILL AND OVERTIME, WE ARE PROVING TO THEM, THAT WHAT WE TOLD THEM WHAT WOULD HAPPEN (3 YEARS AGO) HAS HAPPEN.
WE TRIED TO INTERVENE MANY TIMES, BUT WERE BULLIED INTO SUBMISSION, SO HERE WE ARE.
DIXON, COX, HARRIS AND ALL OF YOUR YES MEN, THIS MESS LIES FIRMLY IN YOUR LAPS, SO GET OFF YOUR COLLECTIVE BACKSIDES AND TALK TO THE ENGINEERS ABOUT HOW WE CAN FIX THIS WITHOUT BLAMING IT ON CRUDE OIL PRICES, 3%, ETC ....... IF YOU DON'T YOU WILL PRESIDE OVER THE DEMISE OF THE BIG WHITE RAT.
WE ARE ONLY AFTER WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY OWED TO US AFTER YEARS OF ABUSE AND DISRESPECT FOR OUR SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE. DON'T FORGET WE TOOK A HIT FOR 18 MONTHS TO HELP THIS COMPANY MAKE A $500 MILLION PROFIT SO NOW IT IS YOUR TURN.
You can post as much crap as you like in this forum as that is your right. You need to realise the reason for our rage is personal. We have done everything this pack of A***Holes have asked us to do, despite knowing the eventual harm it would cause, without a fuss. Whilst our whole work environment has crumbled about us we kept working hard to keep the flying public flying and tried to rectify something out of this absolute mess D.C. M.H. and co had led us into.
I will say this once and once only so pin your ears back and listen.
EVERYONE IS CALLING THIS AN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE, IN FACT IT IS JUST A BUNCH OF ENGINEERS CARRYING OUT THEIR JOB USING STUPID PROCEDURES WRITTEN BY IGNORANT MANAGERS WHO HAVEN'T THE FOGGIEST IDEA ABOUT LAME'S OR WHAT OUR JOB INVOLVES. TO THIS END...
FOLLOWING THEIR GUIDELINES AND WORKING TO THEIR RULES, WITHOUT OUR GOODWILL AND OVERTIME, WE ARE PROVING TO THEM, THAT WHAT WE TOLD THEM WHAT WOULD HAPPEN (3 YEARS AGO) HAS HAPPEN.
WE TRIED TO INTERVENE MANY TIMES, BUT WERE BULLIED INTO SUBMISSION, SO HERE WE ARE.
DIXON, COX, HARRIS AND ALL OF YOUR YES MEN, THIS MESS LIES FIRMLY IN YOUR LAPS, SO GET OFF YOUR COLLECTIVE BACKSIDES AND TALK TO THE ENGINEERS ABOUT HOW WE CAN FIX THIS WITHOUT BLAMING IT ON CRUDE OIL PRICES, 3%, ETC ....... IF YOU DON'T YOU WILL PRESIDE OVER THE DEMISE OF THE BIG WHITE RAT.
WE ARE ONLY AFTER WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY OWED TO US AFTER YEARS OF ABUSE AND DISRESPECT FOR OUR SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE. DON'T FORGET WE TOOK A HIT FOR 18 MONTHS TO HELP THIS COMPANY MAKE A $500 MILLION PROFIT SO NOW IT IS YOUR TURN.
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I'm yet to see a credible argument for your pay claim - you may not like that but instead of trying to stake your claim you seek to dismiss.
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I tried PAF you're a goose. we aren't doing anymore than we were doing a year ago. we are doing exactly the same, but with our hands tied and with 100's of lame's less.
Welcome to my ignore list and give my regards to Cox, Harris and co.
Welcome to my ignore list and give my regards to Cox, Harris and co.
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Thanks for the update Stephen.
We did tell our new "mangement team" that their "New World" would cause big problems and these problems would rattle around the system. These guys through the baby out with the bathwater.
We had a system that worked. True, some adjustments were needed. Problem was these guys refused to listen to people with years of experience. I had my new manager with 2 weeks exposure to Line Maintenance bsically tell me a did not know my job! I am a 30 plus Line LAME for God's sake! However, as a collective we did as we were asked for good or bad.
Mistake #1, ignore good advice. This is the reason that we now have aircraft missing on time departure, breaking and missing curfew, etc. Basic mechanical failures brought on by this system.
We are asked to make radical changes to save money which we did as above. We actually saved more money than we were targeted to do. Unreal! I actually had satisfaction from helping to do that. I then thought, OK now to adjust the system and fix the obvious problems. QF makes a ton of money, all good!
Oh boy! Next thing, sorry boys you've been bent over and no repayment for helping us out. Sure, we are paid to do a job. So what about the clowns above us! You guys grabbed your cash, we are only asking to keep up with the cost of living. Not a big ask.
Funny thing is, if we do have a real work to rule (which I can tell you is not anywhere near full swing at present) as per QF and BMM Procedures to the letter and completely legally the airline will really know it is in a punch up!
Most of the crap at present is QF copping it's Karmic Deby.
God IS an Engineer!!
PAF or whoever you call yourself wake up! There is a bulldozer coming!
We did tell our new "mangement team" that their "New World" would cause big problems and these problems would rattle around the system. These guys through the baby out with the bathwater.
We had a system that worked. True, some adjustments were needed. Problem was these guys refused to listen to people with years of experience. I had my new manager with 2 weeks exposure to Line Maintenance bsically tell me a did not know my job! I am a 30 plus Line LAME for God's sake! However, as a collective we did as we were asked for good or bad.
Mistake #1, ignore good advice. This is the reason that we now have aircraft missing on time departure, breaking and missing curfew, etc. Basic mechanical failures brought on by this system.
We are asked to make radical changes to save money which we did as above. We actually saved more money than we were targeted to do. Unreal! I actually had satisfaction from helping to do that. I then thought, OK now to adjust the system and fix the obvious problems. QF makes a ton of money, all good!
Oh boy! Next thing, sorry boys you've been bent over and no repayment for helping us out. Sure, we are paid to do a job. So what about the clowns above us! You guys grabbed your cash, we are only asking to keep up with the cost of living. Not a big ask.
Funny thing is, if we do have a real work to rule (which I can tell you is not anywhere near full swing at present) as per QF and BMM Procedures to the letter and completely legally the airline will really know it is in a punch up!
Most of the crap at present is QF copping it's Karmic Deby.
God IS an Engineer!!
PAF or whoever you call yourself wake up! There is a bulldozer coming!
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Thanks Twister,
Yep, I figure there would be a lot of "Trolls" in here. I just hope they pay attention and take some of this info on board before it is too late for them!
Managers, dime a dozen. Good managers, rare species.
Yep, I figure there would be a lot of "Trolls" in here. I just hope they pay attention and take some of this info on board before it is too late for them!
Managers, dime a dozen. Good managers, rare species.
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Actually I've seen plenty of claims. I just refuse to recognise that they are credible.
2. A 25% drop in LAME numbers vs. a 25% increase in fleet size in the last few years. And until recently, the vast majority of aircraft were getting out on time. That equates to a massive increase in efficiency per LAME by anyone's reckoning, despite an ageing fleet requiring relatively more maintenance.
3. We were promised to be "looked after when times are good" in return for a 30 month pay freeze. Three years of record profits under their belts, and we've been "negotiating" with them for nearly 2 of those three years to get what we were promised.
4. A top tier AME is paid more than a first-licence LAME. "Here's a licence son, take on all the responsibilities of a signatory, supervise those AMEs - oh and now give me back $X bucks a week!" HELLO!
5. A QF LAME has to work for over 30 years to receive what a 1st year LAME receives at VB or J*.
Shall I carry on? Perhaps others can add more reasons.
Some of you may ask why I bother replying to PAF? I'd like his support but I know I wont get it. To date he's ignored all the above points previously stated in this thread and others. I also feel personally insulted that you think our pay claims are not credible. And NO-ONE is on a go-slow. I STILL have MY arse hanging out every goddamned day, and so do the vast majority of my colleagues.
PAF, granted, 4 hour stoppages hurt innocent people. I agree with you. Can we now move on? When you've worked beside me for 16 years of nightshift in all climatic conditions, shortened your lifespan as a result, sacrificed your health and family life and social scene, put up with restrictive and downright stupid procedures & policies written by managers who seem determined to price us out of the MRO market, tried to fix an aircraft without IT or logistical support and been insulted and abused by your management telling you you will get a pay-cut in real terms for what you've achieved over the last few years DESPITE THEIR best efforts, you have a right to criticise our pay claim and the tactics of last resort with which to achieve themn.
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Care to provide the exact figures? %'s with dates? Hopefully you understand that 17% over 10 years is not 1.7% per annum.
2000: 3%
2001: 0%
2002: 0%
2003: 3%
2004: 3%
2005: 3%
2006: 3%
2007: 0%
2008: 0%
Total: 17%
Hopefully you understand that 17% over 10 years is not 1.7% per annum.
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Hey, I would love to see the response if VR was offered. Even if we did get what are asking for I think the response would be massive.
The big danger here is these guys up top are messing around with an Industry that relies on the passing on of knowledge.
At the entry level the word is out that QF is a deadend. Kids need a career with a future more than ever.
At the top end the majority of LAME's are close to retiring age. Ten years will see lots of us out.
What happens if the "middle career" guys look at getting out through frustation and work out that there is a world outside QF?
The chain is breaking!! Very dangerous!
If the "Trolls" out there don't think it can happen, look back at the '80's.
I know a lot of you guys weren't around then, but those who were fill your buddies in please. One the gates open it is very hard to stem the flow.
Last time imports fixed the problem after a lot of time and cash was spent to get them here and train them.
World wide there is a shortage. It is a real concern and if Management does not consider this side of it, well it is irresponsible.
As a good friend of mine who travels for work constantly said to me.
"Let me know when it is time to stop flying."
Very scary stuff people. Don't undervalue what you have, it too late once it is gone.
The big danger here is these guys up top are messing around with an Industry that relies on the passing on of knowledge.
At the entry level the word is out that QF is a deadend. Kids need a career with a future more than ever.
At the top end the majority of LAME's are close to retiring age. Ten years will see lots of us out.
What happens if the "middle career" guys look at getting out through frustation and work out that there is a world outside QF?
The chain is breaking!! Very dangerous!
If the "Trolls" out there don't think it can happen, look back at the '80's.
I know a lot of you guys weren't around then, but those who were fill your buddies in please. One the gates open it is very hard to stem the flow.
Last time imports fixed the problem after a lot of time and cash was spent to get them here and train them.
World wide there is a shortage. It is a real concern and if Management does not consider this side of it, well it is irresponsible.
As a good friend of mine who travels for work constantly said to me.
"Let me know when it is time to stop flying."
Very scary stuff people. Don't undervalue what you have, it too late once it is gone.
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PAF.
The exclamation marks are not for excitement. They are more for concern and to highlight something that should be seriously taken into consideration.
If you think people are excited that the "safety chain" is breaking, you sir are a fool. This is a very grave situation and should be taken as such.
We as LAME's have to have a huge responsibility. For you to mock that disgusts me.
Give yourself an uppercut you fool.
The exclamation marks are not for excitement. They are more for concern and to highlight something that should be seriously taken into consideration.
If you think people are excited that the "safety chain" is breaking, you sir are a fool. This is a very grave situation and should be taken as such.
We as LAME's have to have a huge responsibility. For you to mock that disgusts me.
Give yourself an uppercut you fool.
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Interesting PAF.
You deleted the post before my prevoius one. Had to quickly retract your statement 'eh.
At least leave what you type in for all to read. Then again it nice to know that you must know when you have over stepped the mark. Thanks for that.
You deleted the post before my prevoius one. Had to quickly retract your statement 'eh.
At least leave what you type in for all to read. Then again it nice to know that you must know when you have over stepped the mark. Thanks for that.
I had a good look at a Discovery Channel documentary on the A380 program yesterday. That is the biggest most complex civil aircraft ever produced.
Then there is the Boeing Dreamliner - composite fuselage and all.
I also remember the planning and introduction into service of the B767 by Ansett, in which exercise I was a very tiny cog.
I'm going to make a prediction here, based on what I read on this thread about the capabilities of QF management.
......And that is that, if Engineering and General Management keeps performing the way they are, the entry into service of those aircraft is going to be the worst nightmare ever seen in any airline.
I don't care how modern and super duper these new aircraft are. There are going to be new and unusual problems to deal with that will require innovative solutions and a huge effort by engineers to deal with. It always happens, no matter what the salesmen tell you.
However, by the time these aircraft arrive, I think QF will no longer have the technical and engineering ability to deal with even the most minor technical challenge, and will thus lose control of the technical agenda to Airbus, Boeing and whatever Asian MRO's QF has chosen to use. When that happens, Engineeering costs will increase suddenly and dramatically.
To put it another way, Qf should have invested large chunks of its supposed profits in modernising and increasing it's Engineering capability over the years. It does not appear to me that it has done this, in fact the reverse.
....And pretty soon it is going to bite QF, and unfortunately Australia, on the backside.
If you want to understand why, read up on the threads about the absolute shambles that has been the opening of Terminal Five at Heathrow. The description of this farce is littered with Ppruner comments from BA people to the effect that "We told them that (insert system or procedure) wouldn't work, but the managers simply ignored us".
I get the feeling that the same thing happens at Qantas....does it?
Then there is the Boeing Dreamliner - composite fuselage and all.
I also remember the planning and introduction into service of the B767 by Ansett, in which exercise I was a very tiny cog.
I'm going to make a prediction here, based on what I read on this thread about the capabilities of QF management.
......And that is that, if Engineering and General Management keeps performing the way they are, the entry into service of those aircraft is going to be the worst nightmare ever seen in any airline.
I don't care how modern and super duper these new aircraft are. There are going to be new and unusual problems to deal with that will require innovative solutions and a huge effort by engineers to deal with. It always happens, no matter what the salesmen tell you.
However, by the time these aircraft arrive, I think QF will no longer have the technical and engineering ability to deal with even the most minor technical challenge, and will thus lose control of the technical agenda to Airbus, Boeing and whatever Asian MRO's QF has chosen to use. When that happens, Engineeering costs will increase suddenly and dramatically.
To put it another way, Qf should have invested large chunks of its supposed profits in modernising and increasing it's Engineering capability over the years. It does not appear to me that it has done this, in fact the reverse.
....And pretty soon it is going to bite QF, and unfortunately Australia, on the backside.
If you want to understand why, read up on the threads about the absolute shambles that has been the opening of Terminal Five at Heathrow. The description of this farce is littered with Ppruner comments from BA people to the effect that "We told them that (insert system or procedure) wouldn't work, but the managers simply ignored us".
I get the feeling that the same thing happens at Qantas....does it?
Micro Inequities.
Ran across this organisational behaviour stuff yesterday. It's old, but it has some relevence I think, when it comes to analysing behaviour.
It's what's termed "Microinequities" - subtle slights that devalue people and effectively lower their performance in the workplace.
I have always been pissed off by these things without realising it, from the time I stood in a queue with everyone else waiting to clock out, watching the managers driving their company cars past us and out the gate without even a glance.
http://www.magazine.org/content/file...inequities.pdf
I don't think Dixon's continuous slights are "micro" though, it's pretty obvious that if he deliberately takes Eighteen months to negotiate an EBA, he thinks that you are all ****e anyway. That attitude is going to bite QF's arse one day, but by then Dixon and his ilk will have taken their bonuses and shares and slithered away.
This stuff is about the "meta message" - the message people send when they don't think they are sending a message.
It appears to me that Mr. Dixon has no understanding of this concept, or wouldn't care anyway, because he sends a lot of meta messages. The theme is always the same - everybody except me is ****e.
- Like dragging on an EBA negotiation for Eighteen months, when executive pay is minutely readjusted annually.
- Like saying that he and his Board are responsible for the company's success (and by implication that the workers aren't).
This seems to be completely at variance with what Qantas claims on their own career website:
.....If that last sentence is true, which I think it is, then why is F***king you over and getting rid of as many of you as possible?
It's what's termed "Microinequities" - subtle slights that devalue people and effectively lower their performance in the workplace.
I have always been pissed off by these things without realising it, from the time I stood in a queue with everyone else waiting to clock out, watching the managers driving their company cars past us and out the gate without even a glance.
http://www.magazine.org/content/file...inequities.pdf
I don't think Dixon's continuous slights are "micro" though, it's pretty obvious that if he deliberately takes Eighteen months to negotiate an EBA, he thinks that you are all ****e anyway. That attitude is going to bite QF's arse one day, but by then Dixon and his ilk will have taken their bonuses and shares and slithered away.
Microinequities: When Small Slights Lead to Huge Problems in the
Workplace
By Eric L. Hinton
May 22, 2003
This story was published in the March/April issue of DiversityInc, the magazine.
Imagine for a moment you're sitting at your desk when you see your boss walking around the office introducing a new hire to all the current staff members. At each stop, your boss spends several minutes exulting in the various accomplishments of each of your co-workers and rejoicing in what a valuable member of the team he or she is. Then, when your boss approaches you, he simply identifies you by name (which he mispronounces) and says you've been with the company for a year (when you've actually been there for three), before quickly moving along.
As you now ponder whether it's time to update your resume, that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach has a name. You've just been the victim of a microinequity, says Stephen Young, senior vice president of corporate diversity for JPMorgan Chase. Over the past fewyears, Young has become a personal crusader, preaching to corporations the destructive consequences of employers and co-workers who exhibit forms of exclusion, both implied and
overt, in the workplace.
A microinequity is defined as a subtle message, sometimes subconscious, that devalues, discourages and ultimately impairs performance in the workplace. These messages can take the shape of looks, gestures or even tones. The cumulative effect of microinequties often leads to damaged self-esteem and, eventually, withdrawal from co-workers in the office.........
Workplace
By Eric L. Hinton
May 22, 2003
This story was published in the March/April issue of DiversityInc, the magazine.
Imagine for a moment you're sitting at your desk when you see your boss walking around the office introducing a new hire to all the current staff members. At each stop, your boss spends several minutes exulting in the various accomplishments of each of your co-workers and rejoicing in what a valuable member of the team he or she is. Then, when your boss approaches you, he simply identifies you by name (which he mispronounces) and says you've been with the company for a year (when you've actually been there for three), before quickly moving along.
As you now ponder whether it's time to update your resume, that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach has a name. You've just been the victim of a microinequity, says Stephen Young, senior vice president of corporate diversity for JPMorgan Chase. Over the past fewyears, Young has become a personal crusader, preaching to corporations the destructive consequences of employers and co-workers who exhibit forms of exclusion, both implied and
overt, in the workplace.
A microinequity is defined as a subtle message, sometimes subconscious, that devalues, discourages and ultimately impairs performance in the workplace. These messages can take the shape of looks, gestures or even tones. The cumulative effect of microinequties often leads to damaged self-esteem and, eventually, withdrawal from co-workers in the office.........
It appears to me that Mr. Dixon has no understanding of this concept, or wouldn't care anyway, because he sends a lot of meta messages. The theme is always the same - everybody except me is ****e.
- Like dragging on an EBA negotiation for Eighteen months, when executive pay is minutely readjusted annually.
- Like saying that he and his Board are responsible for the company's success (and by implication that the workers aren't).
This seems to be completely at variance with what Qantas claims on their own career website:
In the air and on the ground the Qantas Group’s fleets are at the forefront of aviation thanks to the teams of talented specialists in Qantas Engineering who share a commitment to professional excellence. Our reputation is a direct reflection of the abilities, dedication and professionalism of everyone responsible for the care and maintenance of the fleets of our customers.
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I wonder if our uber leader would be able to stop thinking about his fat bonus for a short time and think of someone else? I'd go and watch and maybe even sing a lullaby
http://www.parravinnies.org/ceowintersleepout/
http://www.parravinnies.org/ceowintersleepout/
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Fuel prices
FYI, fuel prices in Jan last year were around $54 us a barrel. So if we had our EBA sorted as it should have been then, this would not be an issue. I am surprised that GD hasn't blamed the earth quake in china for not giving us a pay rise. But I am sure he is keep that up his sleeve.
Excellent post boardman and konehead-just to put it in sinple terms leaves no one in the dark about what is going on and has been in the last few years.
Are there management teams so good that they can afford to completely ignore the years and years of experience fixing their aircraft every day and night of the week(remember managers-these aircraft departing on time decide if you get a bonus or not).
Try having some respect and if you dont understand,maybe u should ask before u criticise.Getting back to another post,just shows you how low they can go suggesting a guy who is retiring after 30 yrs should not have any further contact with his work-mates.
1st of all,totally out of line yet again and shows the arrogance and how unprofessional they really are and secondly
SHAME ON YOU-YOUR DAY WILL COME,MAYBE QUICKER THAN YOU REALISE.!
Are there management teams so good that they can afford to completely ignore the years and years of experience fixing their aircraft every day and night of the week(remember managers-these aircraft departing on time decide if you get a bonus or not).
Try having some respect and if you dont understand,maybe u should ask before u criticise.Getting back to another post,just shows you how low they can go suggesting a guy who is retiring after 30 yrs should not have any further contact with his work-mates.
1st of all,totally out of line yet again and shows the arrogance and how unprofessional they really are and secondly
SHAME ON YOU-YOUR DAY WILL COME,MAYBE QUICKER THAN YOU REALISE.!