Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Hey Frozo the people causing delays with your travel is QF management. They have the power to fix this whole debacle in a heart beat. You have not worked under these people obviously. This management have painted themselves into a corner with all the special area procedures and rules they have bought in. Now their is no overtime and the LAMEs are working as per their management devised rules the system cannot cope. It goes to show that the goodwill of these LAMEs over the past 6-7 years is what has kept this airline flying and doing mostly on time.
So crawl back under your rock and direct your constant diatribe at QF senior management. They have the power to resolve this whole situation.
If this isn't sorted soon, not only will the LAMEs be in dispute but all the staff under the TWU might follow suit. If that happens I believe it will bring a whole new meaning to the little delays that you are suffering now.
So crawl back under your rock and direct your constant diatribe at QF senior management. They have the power to resolve this whole situation.
If this isn't sorted soon, not only will the LAMEs be in dispute but all the staff under the TWU might follow suit. If that happens I believe it will bring a whole new meaning to the little delays that you are suffering now.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Miss Management
Its interesting that DC & MH have released the new Operations Managers positions - why because they have no idea how the actual business of maintaining a fleet of aircraft and handling personnel, so when it all goes pear shaped they can blame someone else....
The question remains why bother having MH/RH/DM/KM?
Whats the point, why not have operations managers and delete these"Jobs for the Boys", honestly they are like pigs in a trough!
On the other point I agree it isnt the industrial dispute that is causing the problems, sure the lack of overtime is hurting but why?
The reason being the continual outsourcing of Maintenance & Components!
When the overtime was running guys were fixing errors or lack of maintenance carried out by the 2nd class maintenance organisations - you get what you pay for!
How many times have LAME's changed multiple components of the same item to find the so called serviceable item is defective...recently serviced by El cheapo's Component workshop.....
Time All Qantas Management from the top down was overhauled...., pay them out, terminate them, people who have no idea on how a business works shouldn't be in positions of a complex machine as aircraft maintenance
The question remains why bother having MH/RH/DM/KM?
Whats the point, why not have operations managers and delete these"Jobs for the Boys", honestly they are like pigs in a trough!
On the other point I agree it isnt the industrial dispute that is causing the problems, sure the lack of overtime is hurting but why?
The reason being the continual outsourcing of Maintenance & Components!
When the overtime was running guys were fixing errors or lack of maintenance carried out by the 2nd class maintenance organisations - you get what you pay for!
How many times have LAME's changed multiple components of the same item to find the so called serviceable item is defective...recently serviced by El cheapo's Component workshop.....
Time All Qantas Management from the top down was overhauled...., pay them out, terminate them, people who have no idea on how a business works shouldn't be in positions of a complex machine as aircraft maintenance
Join Date: Apr 2008
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You know who
Guys,
Stop giving oxygen to you know who. If you can't help but reply to his posts, then put him on your ignore list. He is trying to get this thread closed down. And he will suceed, if we keep biting. Ignore him! We need this thread to keep going.
Stop giving oxygen to you know who. If you can't help but reply to his posts, then put him on your ignore list. He is trying to get this thread closed down. And he will suceed, if we keep biting. Ignore him! We need this thread to keep going.
Join Date: May 2008
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PAF
No PAF only yours
Having been an industry pilot and a LAME let me tell you any monkey can be a pilot.whether you are a good one of course is another matter.
But personally being a LAME has always been more challenging, and mate Pilots belong to unions too (although perhaps not in the airforce)Sir yes sir,although I am begining to doubt that.you are actually a RAAFpilot as I would be surprised that with the airforce selection criteria they would select a dumbass like you.
Are you still liviving in the 50s?
If that were true how would a RAAF person know that, and if it is true Im sure the ALAEA know what they are doing.
You clown
Engineer's seem to laugh and enjoy the fact they effect people's travel plans
Is it true that if you tried harder in school you could have been a pilot instead of an aircraft "mechanic" that needs another man (union rep) to put forward his case in life?
But personally being a LAME has always been more challenging, and mate Pilots belong to unions too (although perhaps not in the airforce)Sir yes sir,although I am begining to doubt that.you are actually a RAAFpilot as I would be surprised that with the airforce selection criteria they would select a dumbass like you.
Engineer's seem to laugh and enjoy the fact they effect people's travel plans in an attempt to achieve their Communist goals
Or you could hand back the thousands of dollars you took from members and handed to the ACTU (an organisation that handed money over to the ALP).
You clown
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I'd like all to consider the most dangerous rat is a cornered rat with no chance of escape............
Do NOT give an inch or expect Qf management to just conveniently roll over just because they're talking to the ALAEA & ACTU. Its over when they have signed the 5% EBA.
Dont trust them, never will
D4
Do NOT give an inch or expect Qf management to just conveniently roll over just because they're talking to the ALAEA & ACTU. Its over when they have signed the 5% EBA.
Dont trust them, never will
D4
Pardon my thread drift
I heard a rumour that writing has already started for a 'bastard boys' style ABC documentary on the 2008 QF/ALAEA eba dispute. Who do you think they'll get to do the acting for the various players in this saga? I wonder who will play GD, KB, DC etc...
Join Date: May 2008
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IATA Announcment - relevant....?
Date: 02 June 2008
Fuel Crisis a Catalyst for Change
Istanbul - The International Air Transport Association (IATA) called on governments, industry partners and labour to address the fuel crisis that is pushing airlines into the red. IATA forecasts a loss of US$2.3 billion for 2008 based on an average oil price of US$106.5 per barrel Brent crude. The association sounded a warning that this year’s loss could be even higher -potentially US$6.1 billion with an oil price at US$135 per barrel for rest of the year.
In the State of the Industry address at IATA’s 64th Annual General Meeting and World Air Transport Summit in Istanbul, Turkey, the association’s Director General and CEO, Giovanni Bisignani compared the airline industry to Sisyphus - a mythical character whose fate was to constantly carry heavy loads uphill.
“Over the last 60 years the industry made US$11.5 trillion in revenues, but only US$32 billion in profits. Average margin for the entire industry has been just 0.3%. And the industry is US$190 billion in debt. Since 2001, airlines achieved massive change. Fuel efficiency improved 19% and non-fuel unit costs dropped 18%. The skyrocketing price of oil has eaten these gains and left the industry in the red again. Oil prices at US$130 a barrel are changing the game for everyone. The situation is grim,” said Bisignani.
Bisignani sounded the alarm in a stark declaration to governments, industry partners and labour. “Airlines are struggling for survival and massive changes are needed. Governments must stop crazy taxation, change the rules of the game and fix the infrastructure. Labour must understand that jobs disappear if costs don’t come down. And to our partners, the message is simple. We are in this together. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you,” said Bisignani.
Interesting to note that a number of US Airlines are cutting back on flights, routes and people and they are all citing the high cost of fuel as well, any chance that theres something to this, or are they all just shouting management BS as a scare tactic.
No statement from me, just reporting what I've read, I'm sure their are people here who know more about whats going on then what I can read in the papers.
Fuel Crisis a Catalyst for Change
Istanbul - The International Air Transport Association (IATA) called on governments, industry partners and labour to address the fuel crisis that is pushing airlines into the red. IATA forecasts a loss of US$2.3 billion for 2008 based on an average oil price of US$106.5 per barrel Brent crude. The association sounded a warning that this year’s loss could be even higher -potentially US$6.1 billion with an oil price at US$135 per barrel for rest of the year.
In the State of the Industry address at IATA’s 64th Annual General Meeting and World Air Transport Summit in Istanbul, Turkey, the association’s Director General and CEO, Giovanni Bisignani compared the airline industry to Sisyphus - a mythical character whose fate was to constantly carry heavy loads uphill.
“Over the last 60 years the industry made US$11.5 trillion in revenues, but only US$32 billion in profits. Average margin for the entire industry has been just 0.3%. And the industry is US$190 billion in debt. Since 2001, airlines achieved massive change. Fuel efficiency improved 19% and non-fuel unit costs dropped 18%. The skyrocketing price of oil has eaten these gains and left the industry in the red again. Oil prices at US$130 a barrel are changing the game for everyone. The situation is grim,” said Bisignani.
Bisignani sounded the alarm in a stark declaration to governments, industry partners and labour. “Airlines are struggling for survival and massive changes are needed. Governments must stop crazy taxation, change the rules of the game and fix the infrastructure. Labour must understand that jobs disappear if costs don’t come down. And to our partners, the message is simple. We are in this together. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you,” said Bisignani.
Interesting to note that a number of US Airlines are cutting back on flights, routes and people and they are all citing the high cost of fuel as well, any chance that theres something to this, or are they all just shouting management BS as a scare tactic.
No statement from me, just reporting what I've read, I'm sure their are people here who know more about whats going on then what I can read in the papers.
Gday Nuked, welcome to Pprune.
With reference to your post above: Qantas has not issued any profit downgrade advice to the Australian Stock Exchange, so presumably, they do not view the current spike in fuel costs as having any effect on their profit forecast for this financial year at least (which I believe is forecast to be around 1.4 billion dollars - not bad eh?). With any luck they will snap up all of Virgin Blue's market share if and when they fall over, just as they did when Ansett collapsed, and it will be happy days. Perhaps IATA is hyping it just a little bit to leverage concessions out of governments around the world, to ensure the various management groups it represents can continue to harvest outsized remunerations from the airlines they run. I guess IATA is a lot like the ALAEA - just doing its best to get maximum return for its members...
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PAF
I am reluctantly drawn into this debate by your recent comments. FWIW, I am neither a LAME nor involved in this QF action in any way, nor am I or ever have been voluntarily involved with a union. Nor am I a socialist.
I can tell you however, it requires much more knowledge and intellect to be a good engineer than it does a pilot. I can also tell you as I know from close relatives that the men and women that maintain the aircraft both you and QF fly take immense pride, seriousness and responsibility in all they do in their profession.
They also carry and take home the burden of safe aviation every day. I also know that at least some if not most will not be able to sleep at night if they have any doubt about the quality of their work.
I sincerely hope the aircraft you fly in the RAAF will never get signed off as serviceable under pressure from the top. Nor the one you take as a civil.
Further, it takes far more knowledge and intellect to be able to distinguish between a communist and a western, capitalist society union delegate than you seemingly possess. Should you ever wish to educate yourself, look into the reasons that communism, or rather socialism took such a hold in the world. Especially the social conditions of the times. If you are too lazy to do so, PM me your number and I will take some time out to help you out.
Depending on how you've been indoctrinated, it may open your eyes somewhat or else cause you to bury your head in the sand, similar to so many generals in Viet Nam between 1948 and 1975 for example.
By associating yourself with the RAAF you are now putting shame on the Services by your ignorant and provocative and selfish comments.
Are you really worthy of the uniform and badges you bear? Are you the kind that would stand by your mates in the heat?? Or would you just turn your back and bury them... Hey, are you even Australian???
sc
I am reluctantly drawn into this debate by your recent comments. FWIW, I am neither a LAME nor involved in this QF action in any way, nor am I or ever have been voluntarily involved with a union. Nor am I a socialist.
I can tell you however, it requires much more knowledge and intellect to be a good engineer than it does a pilot. I can also tell you as I know from close relatives that the men and women that maintain the aircraft both you and QF fly take immense pride, seriousness and responsibility in all they do in their profession.
They also carry and take home the burden of safe aviation every day. I also know that at least some if not most will not be able to sleep at night if they have any doubt about the quality of their work.
I sincerely hope the aircraft you fly in the RAAF will never get signed off as serviceable under pressure from the top. Nor the one you take as a civil.
Further, it takes far more knowledge and intellect to be able to distinguish between a communist and a western, capitalist society union delegate than you seemingly possess. Should you ever wish to educate yourself, look into the reasons that communism, or rather socialism took such a hold in the world. Especially the social conditions of the times. If you are too lazy to do so, PM me your number and I will take some time out to help you out.
Depending on how you've been indoctrinated, it may open your eyes somewhat or else cause you to bury your head in the sand, similar to so many generals in Viet Nam between 1948 and 1975 for example.
By associating yourself with the RAAF you are now putting shame on the Services by your ignorant and provocative and selfish comments.
Are you really worthy of the uniform and badges you bear? Are you the kind that would stand by your mates in the heat?? Or would you just turn your back and bury them... Hey, are you even Australian???
sc
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Pass a Frozo
"No.. Is it true that if you tried harder in school you could have been a pilot instead of an aircraft "mechanic" that needs another man (union rep) to put forward his case in life?"
I seem to remember that the RAAF pilots course was only 12 months from inception to commision. The eleco course was 18 months and no I dont think they spoke slower. You are truly a clown. By the way I have never been interested in flying - might be hard for you to believe but some of us would be bored sh!tless sitting in a cockpit for hours.
Appologies in advance for true pilot professionals.
"No.. Is it true that if you tried harder in school you could have been a pilot instead of an aircraft "mechanic" that needs another man (union rep) to put forward his case in life?"
I seem to remember that the RAAF pilots course was only 12 months from inception to commision. The eleco course was 18 months and no I dont think they spoke slower. You are truly a clown. By the way I have never been interested in flying - might be hard for you to believe but some of us would be bored sh!tless sitting in a cockpit for hours.
Appologies in advance for true pilot professionals.
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apology acccepted 
Don't back down ginger beers......Everyone who has had to bend over and take it from management are on your side....
This NEEDS to be a turning point. Shut the whole damn thing down. Other wise the dire predictions about QF vanishing will eventuate as has probably been GD's plan from day one.
Don't back down ginger beers......Everyone who has had to bend over and take it from management are on your side....
This NEEDS to be a turning point. Shut the whole damn thing down. Other wise the dire predictions about QF vanishing will eventuate as has probably been GD's plan from day one.
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Date: 02 June 2008
Fuel Crisis a Catalyst for Change
Istanbul - The International Air Transport Association (IATA) called on governments, industry partners and labour to address the fuel crisis that is pushing airlines into the red. IATA forecasts a loss of US$2.3 billion for 2008 based on an average oil price of US$106.5 per barrel Brent crude. The association sounded a warning that this year’s loss could be even higher -potentially US$6.1 billion with an oil price at US$135 per barrel for rest of the year... blah blah blah
Fuel Crisis a Catalyst for Change
Istanbul - The International Air Transport Association (IATA) called on governments, industry partners and labour to address the fuel crisis that is pushing airlines into the red. IATA forecasts a loss of US$2.3 billion for 2008 based on an average oil price of US$106.5 per barrel Brent crude. The association sounded a warning that this year’s loss could be even higher -potentially US$6.1 billion with an oil price at US$135 per barrel for rest of the year... blah blah blah
This could actually be as bad as QF is suggesting, maybe worse. But you know what? As I have already stated, QF has had years of great times and no one one the floor has received any more than substandard pay increases; ie: 3%/pa plus an 18 month wage freeze. ALL of us should be getting pay rises indexed with inflation. Then, if we want over and above that amount, we need to work on productivity gains. But to ask for a pay rise in line with inflation is fair and reasonable.
If QF had been looking after its people, they would not find themselves in this situation now. Maybe the board could personally finance your pay rise from the excessive bonuses they have received from the last 5 years or so??
1. Whoever you are, please stop feeding the trolls, it only encourages them. I've reported the offending posts to the moderators anyway.
2. Your Fed. Sec. is doing a great job please listen to what he says and do what he wants you to do.
3. Expect more trolls here and elsewhere, trying to sow your minds with Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) who will try and get some of you to lose your temper and make threats of taking actions that are either criminal or immoral. Don't lose your temper. If the trolling becomes excessive, I'm sure the moderators can act and if necessary either ban them or track the person down.
4. "Good Faith" doesn't mean what you think it does. You can and must deal "in good faith" with the Devil himself in any negotiation and if you don't, you are held to be acting in "Bad Faith" and you immediately lose. It's not about who you are dealing with, it's about not deliberately f*&king up the bargaining process.
From Wikipedia:
But please also be aware that Lawyers and QF can still be absolute C**ts and still be deemed to be acting in good faith.
Classic legal trick is when you have agreed to give a response to something within a week that requires an immediate answer from the other party, wait till 4.55pm on a Friday afternoon then send your response by fax - giving the other party less than five minutes to respond, then claim breach of good faith when they can't.
.....So, all you lot do exactly what your Fed. Sec. tells you. No more, no less. He knows what he is doing. There will be more attempts to either provoke you, divide you, or scare you into backing down shortly.
2. Your Fed. Sec. is doing a great job please listen to what he says and do what he wants you to do.
3. Expect more trolls here and elsewhere, trying to sow your minds with Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) who will try and get some of you to lose your temper and make threats of taking actions that are either criminal or immoral. Don't lose your temper. If the trolling becomes excessive, I'm sure the moderators can act and if necessary either ban them or track the person down.
4. "Good Faith" doesn't mean what you think it does. You can and must deal "in good faith" with the Devil himself in any negotiation and if you don't, you are held to be acting in "Bad Faith" and you immediately lose. It's not about who you are dealing with, it's about not deliberately f*&king up the bargaining process.
From Wikipedia:
Good faith, or in Latin bona fide, is the mental and moral state of honesty, conviction as to the truth or falsehood of a proposition or body of opinion, or as to the rectitude or depravity of a line of conduct, even if the conviction is objectively unfounded. This concept is important in law, especially equitable matters
Bad faith (Latin: mala fides) is a legal concept in which a malicious motive on the part of a party in a lawsuit undermines their case. It has an effect on the ability to maintain causes of action and obtain legal remedies. Generally speaking, courts will not just look at the legal rights of parties in pursuing a transaction or a lawsuit, but will look behind the activity at the motives of the persons attempting to obtain the assistance of the court. If a court feels that the reasons behind the transaction or lawsuit have the effect of abusing the power of the law, or the court, it will generally deny a party the ability to rely on a legal remedy that they will otherwise be entitled to.
Classic legal trick is when you have agreed to give a response to something within a week that requires an immediate answer from the other party, wait till 4.55pm on a Friday afternoon then send your response by fax - giving the other party less than five minutes to respond, then claim breach of good faith when they can't.
.....So, all you lot do exactly what your Fed. Sec. tells you. No more, no less. He knows what he is doing. There will be more attempts to either provoke you, divide you, or scare you into backing down shortly.
Last edited by Sunfish; 6th Jun 2008 at 18:32.
Nuked:
Management must understand that when Engineers jobs disappear planes come down.
Investors must understand that profits disappear when planes don't fly.
To put it another way, Investors (shareholders) are entitled to all of what's left after all costs of the company are met, and that includes labor costs.
They are not guaranteed to any return from their investment whatsoever, not even their original investment.
In other words, they have deliberately exposed themselves to risk in the hope of receiving a return.
You, as an employee, are not an investor in the financial sense, you are entitled to be paid whatever the market rate is, just like the sellers of jet fuel.
To put it another way, what do you think the Shell Oil company would say to Geoff Dixon if he rocked up to them and said "Mate, I want you to charge me less for Jet Fuel because I have to pay my Engineers more"??
Labour must understand that jobs disappear if costs don’t come down.
Investors must understand that profits disappear when planes don't fly.
To put it another way, Investors (shareholders) are entitled to all of what's left after all costs of the company are met, and that includes labor costs.
They are not guaranteed to any return from their investment whatsoever, not even their original investment.
In other words, they have deliberately exposed themselves to risk in the hope of receiving a return.
You, as an employee, are not an investor in the financial sense, you are entitled to be paid whatever the market rate is, just like the sellers of jet fuel.
To put it another way, what do you think the Shell Oil company would say to Geoff Dixon if he rocked up to them and said "Mate, I want you to charge me less for Jet Fuel because I have to pay my Engineers more"??
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Ive been kinda busy so havent had a chance to keep up with the last day or so of what has happened.
Has ANYTHING been done about the guys docked pay?
Has Q given ANY concession or even met with ALAEA?
Has ALAEA executive given any indication to members of a direction they are likely to go.
Hate to sound like a dumbass but as stated in previous post I am not a member anymore/yet.
I really hope CASA has been briefed on ALL breaches of the companies manuals by managment. I have seen AOC's suspended for extremely small breeches. The Q AOC is issued on the basis of the manuals submited and approved by CASA. It would be justice if one of these "managers" managed to get Q's AOC suspended.
Has ANYTHING been done about the guys docked pay?
Has Q given ANY concession or even met with ALAEA?
Has ALAEA executive given any indication to members of a direction they are likely to go.
Hate to sound like a dumbass but as stated in previous post I am not a member anymore/yet.
I really hope CASA has been briefed on ALL breaches of the companies manuals by managment. I have seen AOC's suspended for extremely small breeches. The Q AOC is issued on the basis of the manuals submited and approved by CASA. It would be justice if one of these "managers" managed to get Q's AOC suspended.
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Air traffic workers seek pay rise
Posted 28 minutes ago
The nation's air traffic controllers are seeking a pay rise of between 40 and 60 per cent.
Civil Air, the union representing 1,000 employees, says there's a shortage of air traffic controllers and the rise could help increase the number of people in the profession.
Civil Air executive secretary Peter McGuane says they hope it will also stop air traffic controllers heading overseas.
"We believe that the salaries that we've proposed are comparable to those being ... paid internationally," he said.
Posted 28 minutes ago
The nation's air traffic controllers are seeking a pay rise of between 40 and 60 per cent.
Civil Air, the union representing 1,000 employees, says there's a shortage of air traffic controllers and the rise could help increase the number of people in the profession.
Civil Air executive secretary Peter McGuane says they hope it will also stop air traffic controllers heading overseas.
"We believe that the salaries that we've proposed are comparable to those being ... paid internationally," he said.
Who's worried about 5%.
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No doubt Monty Burns will play Dicko
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It's fine to have a differing point of view, but Frozo was just here to stir up trouble. He did the same in the FAAA EBA forums. It's a shame that he will be able to sign up with a different name. Look out for him...