Ryanair Interview and Sim Assessment (merged)
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cheating: a deception for profit to yourself.
self centred/ egoistic: limited to or caring only about yourself and your own needs.
Queue Jumping: Cutting in line, also known as line/queue jumping, butting, budging, skipping, ditching, breaking, or pushing in.
impatience - restlessness: a lack of patience; irritation with anything that causes delay
Bell end: The glans penis; A stupid or contemptible person.
All are justifiable descriptive words of someone that is looking to bypass the system and heiracrchy that is in place and destroy what is a wonderful, fantastic, envyable and respectable career.
self centred/ egoistic: limited to or caring only about yourself and your own needs.
Queue Jumping: Cutting in line, also known as line/queue jumping, butting, budging, skipping, ditching, breaking, or pushing in.
impatience - restlessness: a lack of patience; irritation with anything that causes delay
Bell end: The glans penis; A stupid or contemptible person.
All are justifiable descriptive words of someone that is looking to bypass the system and heiracrchy that is in place and destroy what is a wonderful, fantastic, envyable and respectable career.
beak I too can look up words in a dictionary but what you seem to be conveniently ignoring is that those words used in the CONTEXT in which you use them become as you say "a slanging match" and deeply offensive in certain aspects! How would you like it if I walked up to you on the street and called you a scab and a whore?
But hey when you have no argument you seem to resort to this dictionary prowling!
It strikes me that the words you use to describe the others you so disdain could be applied quite aptly to yourself. Surely this is a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black?
But hey when you have no argument you seem to resort to this dictionary prowling!
It strikes me that the words you use to describe the others you so disdain could be applied quite aptly to yourself. Surely this is a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black?
Last edited by Rhodes13; 6th Dec 2009 at 21:04.
And that's what it boils down to, my whole point, we are left with the lowest common denominator flying the fare paying public through the skies.
Blaming Ryanair cadets for ruining the industry is like crying over spilt milk. It's utterly pointless, explains nothing, and helps no-one, even though it makes everyone else feel a little better about themselves.
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Ok, ok, ok!!!!
There are always gonna be two sides to every story. In this case its the "I'll buy myself a job" brigade vs the "I want to preserve my t's &c's" brigade.
We can argue ad nausiem about the pro's and cons of each particular viewpoint but at the end of the day we all know that the Ryanair whore, scum, parasite, mule or whatever is advancing this profession and bringing it to new levels.
'nuff said, thread closed!!!!
There are always gonna be two sides to every story. In this case its the "I'll buy myself a job" brigade vs the "I want to preserve my t's &c's" brigade.
We can argue ad nausiem about the pro's and cons of each particular viewpoint but at the end of the day we all know that the Ryanair whore, scum, parasite, mule or whatever is advancing this profession and bringing it to new levels.
'nuff said, thread closed!!!!
Last edited by smith; 7th Dec 2009 at 03:49.
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Callsign Kilo, you offer a constructive argument and I ask you and others who are going to comment to keep it respectful and mannerly rather than allow this thread to descend into the usual slanging match that it always does.
And that's what it boils down to, my whole point, we are left with the lowest common denominator flying the fare paying public through the skies.
The thing that gets me Beak is that you go on about bucking the system, you talk about the experience factor and give us flowery dictionary discriptions to suit the purpose of your words.
'Bypassing the system and the heirarchy in place'
Tell me this, what did you understand about 'the system' when you went to Oxford, apart from what they and a few others told you? What experience level did you have when you first walked on to the flightdeck of your 60t plus 737? Was there a system in place that you bypassed? What about all the SEP instructors, air taxi pilots and turboprop operators that applied for your job and didn't get it? Surely it's justifiable for them to apply the same logic to you?
We can argue ad nausiem about the pro's and cons of each particular viewpoint but at the end of the day we all know that the Ryanair whore, scum, parasite, mule or whatever is advacing this profession and bringing it to new levels.
'nuff said, thread closed!!!!
'nuff said, thread closed!!!!
Ohh my, I can use nasty words too! I'll go and get the Collins English dictionary and give you a definition to justify my statement!
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 6th Dec 2009 at 22:15.
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Smith
Hey smith What car would you recommend I need to buy to sleep in? I earned nigh on 5000 euros last month, all my loans are paid off but I cant afford anywhere to live? So what car am I going to sleep in?
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Trust me I've seen it with my own eyes and had a good laugh about it with security in the car park who told me it is a regular occuurrance. Not really a laughing matter, more of a safety matter in I'd say.
I am delighted you earned €5,000 last month, I'm not going to tell you how much I earned as I am not as insecure as yourself that I have to tell all and sundry what my salary is. I really don't need to blow smoke up my own arse like that.
If I were you I'd go for the Chevrolet Escalade, just like Tiger Woods, you might even be able to pull a bird like his as well!!!!
Good Luck whatever you do.
I am delighted you earned €5,000 last month, I'm not going to tell you how much I earned as I am not as insecure as yourself that I have to tell all and sundry what my salary is. I really don't need to blow smoke up my own arse like that.
If I were you I'd go for the Chevrolet Escalade, just like Tiger Woods, you might even be able to pull a bird like his as well!!!!
Good Luck whatever you do.
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Smith
The reason I said I earned that much last month was to show up your rediculous (sleep in cars) comment for what it was. As regards the ladies I am suitably attached and quite happy thank you very much. The audience is now in Smith. Bravo
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A friend did 30 hours last month. He's been with Ryanair for about 18 months. That's less than €2,000! Oh and he's at a roaming base right now so all hotel bills are he's to pick up. This poor chap is struggling to make ends meet because he's hours have been reduced and at the same time Ryanair continues to hire more cadets.
Either Ryanair are staffed by incredibly stupid people without a clue on how to split workload amongst their pilots, or very clever people who know just how to squeeze every penny out of their workforce (the new starters being cheaper than guys with 18 months on the line). I think every FR pilot should offer their opinions as to which one it is.
Either Ryanair are staffed by incredibly stupid people without a clue on how to split workload amongst their pilots, or very clever people who know just how to squeeze every penny out of their workforce (the new starters being cheaper than guys with 18 months on the line). I think every FR pilot should offer their opinions as to which one it is.
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Tell me this, what did you understand about 'the system' when you went to Oxford, apart from what they and a few others told you? What experience level did you have when you first walked on to the flightdeck of your 60t plus 737? Was there a system in place that you bypassed? What about all the SEP instructors, air taxi pilots and turboprop operators that applied for your job and didn't get it? Surely it's justifiable for them to apply the same logic to you?
As someone said, the industry doesn't owe you a living, so don't try and buy it and make it owe you one. The market is always right, until some silly medaling little short termist comes and does something to artificially alter it for 'their' time. Ryanair is a classic example. Do this scheme at risk of stunting your potential.
Superpilot if your friend is away from assigned base then he will be earning more money than standard. 20 Euros per sbh so that will cover all the extra expenses he will incur. So I fail to see how he will be out of pocket?
As to doing the 30 hours this month yeah its ****ty but thats a whole other argument. You should also ask your friend how many hours has he done since April?
Beak people are't changing the subject, what they are doing is putting holes in your argument! Funny how you deem it irrelevant how you went about getting into this industry and attack others that are going about it in a similar way to you!
You state you haven't bypassed the current system and then slate people are are currently operating to the now more current system. Do I agree with it? No but thats the way it is in Europe!
Blaming Ryanair for the demise of terms in this industry is frankly stupid. How come you aren't on the Fragrant Harbour forums berating international cadets for being willing to accept a package less than the current DESO's. How come you're not on the Astreus forums berating them for operating Aer Lingus aircraft for a fraction of what the Aer Lingus pilots are getting paid? Are you picketing Jet2 lambasting them about their part time contracts and low pay? Or how about Easy with summer only commands and new differing pay scales? Or indeed any airline that offers lower pay to start off? Where are you on the whole eagle jet pay to fly schemes which incidentally were offered by some of UK's charter operators?
Strangely you seem to be quiet about all these other airlines but feel the need to constantly comment on Ryanair? Why is that?
One more question for you beak, when you joined your airline were you on full pay from day one or a reduced cadet salary?
As to doing the 30 hours this month yeah its ****ty but thats a whole other argument. You should also ask your friend how many hours has he done since April?
Beak people are't changing the subject, what they are doing is putting holes in your argument! Funny how you deem it irrelevant how you went about getting into this industry and attack others that are going about it in a similar way to you!
You state you haven't bypassed the current system and then slate people are are currently operating to the now more current system. Do I agree with it? No but thats the way it is in Europe!
Blaming Ryanair for the demise of terms in this industry is frankly stupid. How come you aren't on the Fragrant Harbour forums berating international cadets for being willing to accept a package less than the current DESO's. How come you're not on the Astreus forums berating them for operating Aer Lingus aircraft for a fraction of what the Aer Lingus pilots are getting paid? Are you picketing Jet2 lambasting them about their part time contracts and low pay? Or how about Easy with summer only commands and new differing pay scales? Or indeed any airline that offers lower pay to start off? Where are you on the whole eagle jet pay to fly schemes which incidentally were offered by some of UK's charter operators?
Strangely you seem to be quiet about all these other airlines but feel the need to constantly comment on Ryanair? Why is that?
One more question for you beak, when you joined your airline were you on full pay from day one or a reduced cadet salary?
Last edited by Rhodes13; 7th Dec 2009 at 10:29.
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As always everyone is more than happy to change the subject. And if there isn't an opportunity to change the subject then you create one by having a go at TheBeak.
You got your foot into the door of XL (I am assuming this is who it was) because you went to Oxford. You made the conscious decision to train at Oxford because you believed it would get you into somewhere like XL. You trained, like me, when recruitment was bouyant and Oxford were displaying hard evidence that their training route worked. Inexperienced cadets were going straight to the rhs of a jet or heavy prop. Sure you paid a premium, but you gave yourself a better chance of being a 'first officer direct.' The odds were stacked in your favour. You would likely bypass the more traditional route. This is the card that Oxford were playing when I was selected in mid to late 2005. I didn't end up going, but that's irrelavent. My point has been made.
Since then the aviation industry has evolved a tad. As have the likes of Oxford. The XL, TCX, BA and NetJets alliances are confined to the history books for the foreseeable future. Since 2005 Oxford have purchased both GECAT and Parc and offer a direct path from CPL/IR/MCC/JOC to SSTR. They are actively promoting this 'train now be best placed for the future' bollox. They also like to indirectly associate themselves as a leading supplier of cadets to.... GUESS WHO? I am pretty sure, just like in 2005, that they completely bypass talking about a traditional self improvement route. It's unfortunately as dead as the dodo.
You see what I am getting at here. Large, well renouned schools like Oxford will touch the vast majority of potential trainees (whether they actually go there or not is a different matter) and in turn set the expectation level of what the industry requires and has to offer. It happened to you, it happened to me and it will happen to just about anyone who chooses to listen.
Things have turned for the worst in the last year and a half. You have lost a job, and despite disliking the tone of some of your posts, I am truely sorry for that. You have a right to feel raw, however by lambasting certain individuals as
a silly medaling little short termist comes and does something to artificially alter it for 'their' time.
Deep down, when it comes down to it you have decided to attack a scheme and a category of individuals that reside within that scheme as being the font of all evil. I had to delve into past threads, however here it is..
must add to my post, the Ryanair pilots I don't like are the 18-22 year olds who have done a tin pot degree/no degree, done a full integrated course and then the TR with Ryanair. Those are the 'pilots' I speak of.
Someone added something like 'Dont hate the player, hate the game' and it was dismissed as being an off the cuff remark. I believe there is a certain element of truth to that. The whole concept of waiting around and not selling yourself short isn't seen at the moment and no one can actually forsee when it will apply either. As a result it's knocking the chances of others in finding employment. There's the real problem here, and as I said before, it's crap. It's washing through the industry from the top down.
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 7th Dec 2009 at 12:08.
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I genuinely couldn't feel less persecuted.
With regards to the player/ game analogy - You can not disagree that there is no game without the players - I hate the players, they are the people that enable this. I could say the same about a serial paedophile. Don't hate him/her - hate his/her 'game' (And no I am not comparing Ryanair pilots to Paedophiles, I am just using something impacting to prove a point). The very fact that the both of you give credence to this player/ game model to me shows you know that what you are doing is not right. It's an expression used by people who are comfortably arrogant that they are doing something they know is wrong, but they are benefitting from it so they don't 'care' for peoples opinions. It is an expression used by people trying to shift the blame or responsibility.
He isn't 'out of pocket' ,that is, at this point he is probably at least breaking even, relatively speaking. But he is down on where he should be.
Because Ryanair are the people who started it, are monopolising the market place and are deliberately devaluing the industry by taking suggestable people with a desperate/ impatient mind. I'd imagine 95% (or more) of FTO leavers apply to Ryanair. I'd imagine in fact that they are the most applied to airline of all. It's all because they have created this false economy and false opportunity. A false opportunity because the circumstances have been forced. You are being manipulated.
We could debate this forever and a day, it is getting pointless, there are 3 very defined camps - Those that disagree with Ryanair, those that are grateful to Ryanair for the chance and those that couldn't give a crap.
A reduced salary. A salary though all the same. No lump sum 'all the risk for me' payment up front. No extortionate TR fee.
With regards to the player/ game analogy - You can not disagree that there is no game without the players - I hate the players, they are the people that enable this. I could say the same about a serial paedophile. Don't hate him/her - hate his/her 'game' (And no I am not comparing Ryanair pilots to Paedophiles, I am just using something impacting to prove a point). The very fact that the both of you give credence to this player/ game model to me shows you know that what you are doing is not right. It's an expression used by people who are comfortably arrogant that they are doing something they know is wrong, but they are benefitting from it so they don't 'care' for peoples opinions. It is an expression used by people trying to shift the blame or responsibility.
So I fail to see how he will be out of pocket?
Strangely you seem to be quiet about all these other airlines but feel the need to constantly comment on Ryanair? Why is that?
We could debate this forever and a day, it is getting pointless, there are 3 very defined camps - Those that disagree with Ryanair, those that are grateful to Ryanair for the chance and those that couldn't give a crap.
One more question for you beak, when you joined your airline were you on full pay from day one or a reduced cadet salary?
Beak but surely joining on a reduced salary you were in effect paying for your type rating as well?
Why shouldn't you have been paid full salary from day one? After all the company is profiting from you as they have to provide the sims and trainers and they get you for a pittance whilst you're on your reduced "cadet salary" Tell me were you still not piloting the aircraft and performing duties as described?
As for the no risk from you I think you'll find if you left the company/ failed the type you would have been personally responsible for the debt you now owe the company which would have charged a premium for the said type.
It seems you contradict yourself more and more with your ever increasing posts! I still notice you gloss over the other companies I mention and the fact that you helped perpetuate what the companies started by joining the likes of OAA! And once again you are factually wrong in stating that RYR started the whole pay for type rating stuff. It was around in the 70's! How do I know, well my former employer openly bragged about buying his first type on a 707 and then working for Air Berlin! How does that fit into your whole theory Beaky?
As to being persecuted perhaps if you didn't espouse so much crap people would lay off you!
As to be the young chap out of base care to explain how is down on where he should be? As to barely breaking even having done that a few times I know for a fact you can normally bank about half to a 1/3 of your extra allowances by being sensible, not bad for a bit of a change.
Why shouldn't you have been paid full salary from day one? After all the company is profiting from you as they have to provide the sims and trainers and they get you for a pittance whilst you're on your reduced "cadet salary" Tell me were you still not piloting the aircraft and performing duties as described?
As for the no risk from you I think you'll find if you left the company/ failed the type you would have been personally responsible for the debt you now owe the company which would have charged a premium for the said type.
It seems you contradict yourself more and more with your ever increasing posts! I still notice you gloss over the other companies I mention and the fact that you helped perpetuate what the companies started by joining the likes of OAA! And once again you are factually wrong in stating that RYR started the whole pay for type rating stuff. It was around in the 70's! How do I know, well my former employer openly bragged about buying his first type on a 707 and then working for Air Berlin! How does that fit into your whole theory Beaky?
As to being persecuted perhaps if you didn't espouse so much crap people would lay off you!
As to be the young chap out of base care to explain how is down on where he should be? As to barely breaking even having done that a few times I know for a fact you can normally bank about half to a 1/3 of your extra allowances by being sensible, not bad for a bit of a change.
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Rhodes 13, youre digging a hole here.
The vast majority of airlines who provide TRs take their costs out of your salary before tax. Agreed.
However, RYR make you pay for an over priced TR upfront AND start you on a highly reduced rate of pay for the first 500 hours, thats after recieving NO pay for approx 2-3 months during training. A significant 'double whammy'.
RYR give you nothing on day one. And two. And three.... You get the idea.
I also think you are way too dissmissive about the benefits of having a TR provided by the company. No risk (an airline, to my knowledge, has never charged for a failed TR), no inital outlay, far more tax efficient, the airline will try to get the best price for training and not overcharge (ahem).
You also have a guaranteed salary, pension, sickness...... I mean the list goes on.
I know that if you have 1000 hours on type and if you get a full month of flying and if you are at your home base, then you can get a good paycheck that month.
But thats not every month by a long shot. And it costs a fortune to get there.
Guys, it's a bad deal. Trust me. Where MOL is involved, he will get the best deal for himself at all costs.
Oh, and he HATES pilots. Fact.
EK
The vast majority of airlines who provide TRs take their costs out of your salary before tax. Agreed.
However, RYR make you pay for an over priced TR upfront AND start you on a highly reduced rate of pay for the first 500 hours, thats after recieving NO pay for approx 2-3 months during training. A significant 'double whammy'.
Why shouldn't you have been paid full salary from day one?
I also think you are way too dissmissive about the benefits of having a TR provided by the company. No risk (an airline, to my knowledge, has never charged for a failed TR), no inital outlay, far more tax efficient, the airline will try to get the best price for training and not overcharge (ahem).
You also have a guaranteed salary, pension, sickness...... I mean the list goes on.
I know that if you have 1000 hours on type and if you get a full month of flying and if you are at your home base, then you can get a good paycheck that month.
But thats not every month by a long shot. And it costs a fortune to get there.
Guys, it's a bad deal. Trust me. Where MOL is involved, he will get the best deal for himself at all costs.
Oh, and he HATES pilots. Fact.
EK
EK4457 to an extent I agree with you, but ole beaky here is saying that by paying for a type your are destroying the market. I am simply pointing out that one way or another you pay for your type. As they say there is no such thing as a free lunch. Lets also not pretend that those companies that do pay for your type are doing it from the kindness of their hearts, they do it because its a lovely tax write off and they can save on FO costs at the same time.
Having been here for nigh on 2.5 years I can say that the treatment could be better but thats a fact of most companies and when I chat to friends and family they say exactly the same thing about their companies both here in the UK, Europe and to the Far East and Australia.
For the record pay during the first 500 hours is respectable. I never struggled to put food on the table once and managed to pay down the type rating loan.
What I take issue with is the Beaks constant assertions that RYR is SOLEY to blame for the current state of pilots remuneration! Its not and to believe that is stupid in the extreme. Rather MOL represents what has become of all management positions recently where the all might dollar is the most overriding concern above all else.
Need we look at other carriers for example? A quick browse through pprune reveals that most companies are doing exactly what RYR has done.
Then we have these moronic assertions by beak that having a 737 rating is worthless and that having time on a JAR 25 aircraft is also worthless. Gee I better go and tell the companies that I interviewed with that some jumped up little twerp who because his airline went tits up feels that he has to tell all asunder how to operate their lives!
I agree with WWW on this that now is not the time to start training but if you have that little ticket in your hands then realistically at the moment RYR is pretty much the only game in town. Why should people be berated called whores and scabs for simply trying to do what is best by themselves and families?
Surely as beak has on many times avoided answering during the boom years no one cared one iota how you got there and indeed it was simply a race to see who could spend the most money and get into a shiny jet asap. Now the tables have turned and pilots are under attack due to an oversupply of said pilots Beak wants everyone to stop what they are doing because he is out of a job. Sorry doesn't work. He took the risk and now that risk has bitten him in the ass.
Does RYR have issues? Yes, is it a bad place to work? No. Would I recommend it to a family member? Yes as at the moment what choice do you have? Have I enjoyed my time at RYR? Definitely and I can thank them for being in the position I am in now and for that I am grateful.
Having been here for nigh on 2.5 years I can say that the treatment could be better but thats a fact of most companies and when I chat to friends and family they say exactly the same thing about their companies both here in the UK, Europe and to the Far East and Australia.
For the record pay during the first 500 hours is respectable. I never struggled to put food on the table once and managed to pay down the type rating loan.
What I take issue with is the Beaks constant assertions that RYR is SOLEY to blame for the current state of pilots remuneration! Its not and to believe that is stupid in the extreme. Rather MOL represents what has become of all management positions recently where the all might dollar is the most overriding concern above all else.
Need we look at other carriers for example? A quick browse through pprune reveals that most companies are doing exactly what RYR has done.
Then we have these moronic assertions by beak that having a 737 rating is worthless and that having time on a JAR 25 aircraft is also worthless. Gee I better go and tell the companies that I interviewed with that some jumped up little twerp who because his airline went tits up feels that he has to tell all asunder how to operate their lives!
I agree with WWW on this that now is not the time to start training but if you have that little ticket in your hands then realistically at the moment RYR is pretty much the only game in town. Why should people be berated called whores and scabs for simply trying to do what is best by themselves and families?
Surely as beak has on many times avoided answering during the boom years no one cared one iota how you got there and indeed it was simply a race to see who could spend the most money and get into a shiny jet asap. Now the tables have turned and pilots are under attack due to an oversupply of said pilots Beak wants everyone to stop what they are doing because he is out of a job. Sorry doesn't work. He took the risk and now that risk has bitten him in the ass.
Does RYR have issues? Yes, is it a bad place to work? No. Would I recommend it to a family member? Yes as at the moment what choice do you have? Have I enjoyed my time at RYR? Definitely and I can thank them for being in the position I am in now and for that I am grateful.
Last edited by Rhodes13; 8th Dec 2009 at 13:00.
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I've just stuck my head back in after a few weeks and find myself amused and unsurprised to read the same old people still banging on about the same old stuff. I often feel the urge challenge some of the erroneous statements on here but increasingly feel that any comment on Ryr threads is utterly futile in the face of such divided opinion.
EK4457,
That's all wonderful. Really. I would have jumped at an opportunity like that. Now tell me where I can find such a scheme. Go on, I'm waiting.
The industry has changed, and from the point of view of pilots, not for the better. This is an unfortunate fact of life. Ryanair-type policies are more a symptom of the state of the industry, not the cause. The Beaks of this world can pontificate all they like about the way things SHOULD be, and the old-hands can reminisce about their T&Cs back in the day. Some of us, though, have to make the best of the situation as it stands now, and to be quite blunt about it, doing my bit to resist the decline in T&Cs in the airline industry is f--k all use if I'm unemployed or working in Starbucks with 1000hrs of professional flying under my belt. This is the ugly side of a free market economy and there's virtually nothing you can do to change it. Tough times for sure, but I didn't break the global aviation industry - it was already broken.
EK4457,
I also think you are way too dissmissive about the benefits of having a TR provided by the company. No risk (an airline, to my knowledge, has never charged for a failed TR), no inital outlay, far more tax efficient, the airline will try to get the best price for training and not overcharge (ahem).
You also have a guaranteed salary, pension, sickness...... I mean the list goes on
You also have a guaranteed salary, pension, sickness...... I mean the list goes on
The industry has changed, and from the point of view of pilots, not for the better. This is an unfortunate fact of life. Ryanair-type policies are more a symptom of the state of the industry, not the cause. The Beaks of this world can pontificate all they like about the way things SHOULD be, and the old-hands can reminisce about their T&Cs back in the day. Some of us, though, have to make the best of the situation as it stands now, and to be quite blunt about it, doing my bit to resist the decline in T&Cs in the airline industry is f--k all use if I'm unemployed or working in Starbucks with 1000hrs of professional flying under my belt. This is the ugly side of a free market economy and there's virtually nothing you can do to change it. Tough times for sure, but I didn't break the global aviation industry - it was already broken.
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One more question for you beak, when you joined your airline were you on full pay from day one or a reduced cadet salary?
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I thought that this thread was only for ryr interviews...here we are only talking bad about them and what they do so "wrong", which I'm already sick of hearing it. Some of you might advise me to change thread if I dont want to hear it, but I ask you kindly to follow the thread. If you want to throw bad stuff about ryr just open a new thread named "how bad ryr is". Sorry for interrupting your "debates".
Luca
Ps: I perfectly agree with torque tonight
Luca
Ps: I perfectly agree with torque tonight