British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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That's what happened when bases closed down, not when staff temporarily re-deployed to other parts of the business to assist (indeed, as has been pointed out here before, many of these staff are still doing their day jobs as well as VCC). This is what I mean about the lack of facts and scaremongering. You'd be well advised to speak to your local RyanAir oracle on CrewForum about how the Brookfield agency works for flight crew (you know the one, the ex cabin-crew member rabble-rousing on there at any opportunity). I think your idea of agency pilots is half-formed from the notion that one could legally just pick up a passing pilot and plonk them in the seat. It's not a BA arrogance thing, it's a regulatory thing. Look into it and you'll see that whilst it ostensibly might form a future employment pattern the hurdles that have to be jumped (unlike the VCC courses) present a massive barrier. You are, to coin the age-old phrase, comparing apples with oranges.
Try again, and bring an actual comparable fact or two, would you?
MrB
Last edited by MrBunker; 1st Aug 2010 at 17:15.
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I thought the thread was about cabin crew. All Duggie wants to discuss is other staff groups. Well the news is that all those other groups have their house in order. Does yours, Duggie?
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Draglift, I thought that as well but surely it would be too obvious? 
This whole thing is fizzling out, with BA's next move what remains of the BASSA rep hard-core will be totally outflanked and there will be victory by BA.
The whole affair will end up in industrial relations text-books in a few years time.
This whole thing is fizzling out, with BA's next move what remains of the BASSA rep hard-core will be totally outflanked and there will be victory by BA.
The whole affair will end up in industrial relations text-books in a few years time.
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Ah,
More "facts". Had your union paid even the scantest regard to what was going on in the wider aviation world you might have negotiated some agreements that were fit for purpose going forward in the modern world. I see the rest of your post is full of your usual assertions masquerading as "the fact is" etc.
Your notion that all ancillary staff outside of the management arena will be outsourced is fine until you deconstruct it. We outsource away from base as we don't need the infrastructure of an actual satellite of the main company there. So, in those instances, it is cheaper, in general to use another company's establishment. It's much more moot whether or not there'd be any mileage in that at LHR. The companies we outsource to have to make a profit on selling those services and we still have a HQ style infrastructure in situ at LHR so, for a fair time to come, I'd argue there's little mileage in outsourcing at base except where certain departments are so expensive in comparison to the other providers of their services. That's where more forward looking departments in the airline have realised that protecting their future lies in negotiating lean and forward-looking agreements. That doesn't include standing at Bedfont swearing at aircraft, nor does it include ex employees indulging in their passion for purple prose whilst acting as officers of the union.
You might wish to ponder the reality of what the "58 hrs" conversion training actually entails. The groundschool is 2 weeks in and of itself followed by a number (in double figures) of simulator details, followed by line training and route check. How many qualified trainers do you think we have, let alone trainers willing to train up their own replacements, or outsiders who are conversant with BA FCPM, FCTM and SOP? Also, it might be worth pondering how many sims BA have, let alone have access to in order to conduct training duties on the scale you'd need to enable you to feel proper schadenfreude, let alone those that are currently configured to represent BA aircraft. Might there just possibly be a tiny bottleneck in your assertion there?
Anyhow, off to work, I relish the prospect of another comprehensive reply when I land.
MrB
More "facts". Had your union paid even the scantest regard to what was going on in the wider aviation world you might have negotiated some agreements that were fit for purpose going forward in the modern world. I see the rest of your post is full of your usual assertions masquerading as "the fact is" etc.
Your notion that all ancillary staff outside of the management arena will be outsourced is fine until you deconstruct it. We outsource away from base as we don't need the infrastructure of an actual satellite of the main company there. So, in those instances, it is cheaper, in general to use another company's establishment. It's much more moot whether or not there'd be any mileage in that at LHR. The companies we outsource to have to make a profit on selling those services and we still have a HQ style infrastructure in situ at LHR so, for a fair time to come, I'd argue there's little mileage in outsourcing at base except where certain departments are so expensive in comparison to the other providers of their services. That's where more forward looking departments in the airline have realised that protecting their future lies in negotiating lean and forward-looking agreements. That doesn't include standing at Bedfont swearing at aircraft, nor does it include ex employees indulging in their passion for purple prose whilst acting as officers of the union.
You might wish to ponder the reality of what the "58 hrs" conversion training actually entails. The groundschool is 2 weeks in and of itself followed by a number (in double figures) of simulator details, followed by line training and route check. How many qualified trainers do you think we have, let alone trainers willing to train up their own replacements, or outsiders who are conversant with BA FCPM, FCTM and SOP? Also, it might be worth pondering how many sims BA have, let alone have access to in order to conduct training duties on the scale you'd need to enable you to feel proper schadenfreude, let alone those that are currently configured to represent BA aircraft. Might there just possibly be a tiny bottleneck in your assertion there?
Anyhow, off to work, I relish the prospect of another comprehensive reply when I land.
MrB
Last edited by MrBunker; 1st Aug 2010 at 20:23.
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Hi Duggie,
I can provide plenty of counter-arguments on why Waterside is not going to be vacated in two years, but that would be too easy: shooting down your beliefs is like shooting fish in a barrel. You've really got to provide some facts to back up your statements but, as other posters have pointed out, you are not good at this.
I can provide plenty of counter-arguments on why Waterside is not going to be vacated in two years, but that would be too easy: shooting down your beliefs is like shooting fish in a barrel. You've really got to provide some facts to back up your statements but, as other posters have pointed out, you are not good at this.
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Sky News - More talks to stop BA strikes
Unite are still pumping out the usual tripe:
"Only 15% voted in favour, with 85% finding no appeal in it at all"
- and of that 85% how many couldn't even be bothered to vote either way on something so important?
"BA also claimed that the majority of crew worked during the dispute but we have processed over 7,000 claims for strike pay - that means 70% of Heathrow crew, the backbone of the BA operation, took strike action." - but does that include each striker making more than one possibly two claims? Doesn't look so impressive then does it?
BASSA claim that 70% of their membership took strike action despite 80% of LH and 60% of SH flights operating. All BASSA have succeeded in doing to date is proving how dispensable the strikers are! And still they support them, it's quite unbelievable.
"Only 15% voted in favour, with 85% finding no appeal in it at all"
- and of that 85% how many couldn't even be bothered to vote either way on something so important?
"BA also claimed that the majority of crew worked during the dispute but we have processed over 7,000 claims for strike pay - that means 70% of Heathrow crew, the backbone of the BA operation, took strike action." - but does that include each striker making more than one possibly two claims? Doesn't look so impressive then does it?
BASSA claim that 70% of their membership took strike action despite 80% of LH and 60% of SH flights operating. All BASSA have succeeded in doing to date is proving how dispensable the strikers are! And still they support them, it's quite unbelievable.
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"BA also claimed that the majority of crew worked during the dispute but we have processed over 7,000 claims for strike pay - that means 70% of Heathrow crew, the backbone of the BA operation, took strike action." - but does that include each striker making more than one possibly two claims? Doesn't look so impressive then does it?
Before anyone jumps down my throat, so to speak, I know that the backbone of BA is constructed of all departments within the company (apart from Bassa of course but they're not really a part of BA)
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Duncan/Duggie
Firstly, let me congratulate you on finding your way to the Guardian's comments pages. I note that there are several contributors there who are not inclined to share your views. I've yet to make my own contribution there. I also not that the moderators at the Guardian have pulled the plug on your initial contribution - I wonder why ?
Others may wish to peruse the article
British Airways divides workers over pay and perks | Business | The Guardian
Seems to be a fair assessment.
Back to the case in point. BA abandoning Waterside in favour of Madrid. Not going to happen. To start with, any relocation deal would be more than a tad expensive. Secondly, the IT infrastructure that BA has is far superior to anything Iberia has. BA has better selling systems in BA.com, uses far more of the Amadeus systems, both revenue management, sales, departure control etc. has more sophisticated operation control, planning, maintenance oh and crew rostering systems. Payroll systems are two a penny as are ledger ones, so the two companies are probably on par there but that is the only point where Iberia has anything remotely approaching the sophistication that BA has. You are probably also unaware that about 12 years ago Engineering attempted to set up their own IT arrangement with EDS. It failed as a number of the key systems simply couldn't be moved from LHR to Stockley Park.
BA is highly reliant on its IT systems, but the thing that drives them is the huge amount of business knowledge in the various departments. So even if you could lift and shift the systems wholesale to Madrid, without the experience in departments like IFCE, Operations, HCS, Rev Man etc. you would not be able to maintain them. If you can't maintain them, they are useless and you then have a rudderless ship. When I joined BA over 20 years ago I was told that the company had some of the most complex business processes of any major organisation. These were because of historic agreements with TUs, aggravated by a number of take overs and mergers combined with a highly complicated route network and aircraft fleet..That position has simplified slightly, but only slightly. Any attempt to simplify the status quo requires inordinate amounts of expense and the expertise of the current head office staff. So it isn't in BA's interest to up sticks and move to another part of the UK, let alone another part of Europe.
If you actually talked to staff at Waterside you might appreciate that there is a heck more to BA than what cabin crew offer. Cabin crew may be one of the many public faces of BA, but they are dependant on the rest of the organisation. BASSA clearly have failed to recognise that a company is the sum of its departments. No single department is more important than any other. The actions of one group of workers will affect all the others so if you want to succeed in any industrial action, you need to get the rest of the workforce onside. By denigrating those who have volunteered as crew, you further alienate yourselves, to the extent that many can't wait to see you get your P45s. Not exactly the approach to win friends and influence people. The BASSA committee need to grow up.
Others may wish to peruse the article
British Airways divides workers over pay and perks | Business | The Guardian
Seems to be a fair assessment.
Back to the case in point. BA abandoning Waterside in favour of Madrid. Not going to happen. To start with, any relocation deal would be more than a tad expensive. Secondly, the IT infrastructure that BA has is far superior to anything Iberia has. BA has better selling systems in BA.com, uses far more of the Amadeus systems, both revenue management, sales, departure control etc. has more sophisticated operation control, planning, maintenance oh and crew rostering systems. Payroll systems are two a penny as are ledger ones, so the two companies are probably on par there but that is the only point where Iberia has anything remotely approaching the sophistication that BA has. You are probably also unaware that about 12 years ago Engineering attempted to set up their own IT arrangement with EDS. It failed as a number of the key systems simply couldn't be moved from LHR to Stockley Park.
BA is highly reliant on its IT systems, but the thing that drives them is the huge amount of business knowledge in the various departments. So even if you could lift and shift the systems wholesale to Madrid, without the experience in departments like IFCE, Operations, HCS, Rev Man etc. you would not be able to maintain them. If you can't maintain them, they are useless and you then have a rudderless ship. When I joined BA over 20 years ago I was told that the company had some of the most complex business processes of any major organisation. These were because of historic agreements with TUs, aggravated by a number of take overs and mergers combined with a highly complicated route network and aircraft fleet..That position has simplified slightly, but only slightly. Any attempt to simplify the status quo requires inordinate amounts of expense and the expertise of the current head office staff. So it isn't in BA's interest to up sticks and move to another part of the UK, let alone another part of Europe.
If you actually talked to staff at Waterside you might appreciate that there is a heck more to BA than what cabin crew offer. Cabin crew may be one of the many public faces of BA, but they are dependant on the rest of the organisation. BASSA clearly have failed to recognise that a company is the sum of its departments. No single department is more important than any other. The actions of one group of workers will affect all the others so if you want to succeed in any industrial action, you need to get the rest of the workforce onside. By denigrating those who have volunteered as crew, you further alienate yourselves, to the extent that many can't wait to see you get your P45s. Not exactly the approach to win friends and influence people. The BASSA committee need to grow up.
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MIDLGW:
And there lies the problem - for years BASSA has told it's members that they 'are BA' and without them BA just can't function. This is the kind of arrogant, self deluded nonsense we have come to expect from this union. Of course every department within BA plays and important role in it's ability to operate and one area is just as vital as another.
It's time to wake up ....... BA is functioning pretty well without it's so called 'backbone' and soon it will not even need it.
And there lies the problem - for years BASSA has told it's members that they 'are BA' and without them BA just can't function. This is the kind of arrogant, self deluded nonsense we have come to expect from this union. Of course every department within BA plays and important role in it's ability to operate and one area is just as vital as another.
It's time to wake up ....... BA is functioning pretty well without it's so called 'backbone' and soon it will not even need it.
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Instead of pointing the finger at other departments, it would be helpful if one of the BASSA acolytes could at least try and explain how they are going to extract themselves from the mess they find themselves in.
Consider the following:
a) Any future ballot is fraught with legal issues before it has even begun. The remarkably low turnout on the latest ballot on the BA offer raises serious questions as to the level of BASSA's membership and BASSA's problems in maintaining membership records are well documented.
b) Also, BA has already made clear that it considers the issues raised under the next ballot are not new issues and are a continuation of the dispute under the previous ballot (for which the 12 week protection period against dimissal has expired). It is a given that BA will be monitoring every communication from BASSA during the course of the ballot and given how much Duncan does like to put pen to paper, it wouldn't surprise me if BASSA end up shooting themselves in the foot in this regard. Just like Lizanne did last time.
c) Whether this is the case or not will probably be decided by the courts at some point. However, if you as a CC member receive a written warning from BA in advance of any strike that you have no protection from unfair dismissal by striking, would you be prepared to risk your job by doing so?
d) As it is clear that staff travel will not be returned "in five minutes", how many of the 6,000+ cabin crew that didn't support the last wave of strikes are going to support them this time around?
e) How many cabin crew who have lost income from striking and those that are having to pay commercial fares to get to work are going to be prepared to lose even more money?
f) Even if there is a strike, WW has made it clear that there will be a 100% long-haul operation at LHR. So, at most the strike will have no more impact than the periodic bouts of severe weather at LHR.
g) How can there be any hope of a successful resolution for cabin crew when BASSA is led by people who have a pathological obsession with Willie Walsh, and some who, now they have been sacked, have no personal interest in the future health of the company?
h) How many BASSA reps are now privately wishing they could go back in time and accept BA's offer of June 2009?
So, tell us. What next?
Consider the following:
a) Any future ballot is fraught with legal issues before it has even begun. The remarkably low turnout on the latest ballot on the BA offer raises serious questions as to the level of BASSA's membership and BASSA's problems in maintaining membership records are well documented.
b) Also, BA has already made clear that it considers the issues raised under the next ballot are not new issues and are a continuation of the dispute under the previous ballot (for which the 12 week protection period against dimissal has expired). It is a given that BA will be monitoring every communication from BASSA during the course of the ballot and given how much Duncan does like to put pen to paper, it wouldn't surprise me if BASSA end up shooting themselves in the foot in this regard. Just like Lizanne did last time.
c) Whether this is the case or not will probably be decided by the courts at some point. However, if you as a CC member receive a written warning from BA in advance of any strike that you have no protection from unfair dismissal by striking, would you be prepared to risk your job by doing so?
d) As it is clear that staff travel will not be returned "in five minutes", how many of the 6,000+ cabin crew that didn't support the last wave of strikes are going to support them this time around?
e) How many cabin crew who have lost income from striking and those that are having to pay commercial fares to get to work are going to be prepared to lose even more money?
f) Even if there is a strike, WW has made it clear that there will be a 100% long-haul operation at LHR. So, at most the strike will have no more impact than the periodic bouts of severe weather at LHR.
g) How can there be any hope of a successful resolution for cabin crew when BASSA is led by people who have a pathological obsession with Willie Walsh, and some who, now they have been sacked, have no personal interest in the future health of the company?
h) How many BASSA reps are now privately wishing they could go back in time and accept BA's offer of June 2009?
So, tell us. What next?
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LD12986
Spot on. However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply. In one of Mr Holley's missives to his adoring public, he did intimate that a branch meeting was subject to the outcome of a meeting between the Unite leadership and BASSA. This same meeting was dependant on the talks at ACAS between the Unite leadership and BA management. So...whatever comes out of the ACAS talks, will colour the approach that the Unite leadership might take. My guess is that there will be some pretty hardball conversations. Messrs Woodley and Simpson will need to work out whether to support BASSA one more time, or to call it a day and, as in the last dispute, sign a deal over the heads of BASSA. This latter course of action may turn certain members incandescent with rage, leaving them with no option but to leave the union or call for wildcat acton which will get them sacked. The ball is firmly in Unite's court. Unless they can find a really strong cause to rally the rank and file, they are dead in the water. BA have been very careful not to give the union that strong cause.
Spot on. However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply. In one of Mr Holley's missives to his adoring public, he did intimate that a branch meeting was subject to the outcome of a meeting between the Unite leadership and BASSA. This same meeting was dependant on the talks at ACAS between the Unite leadership and BA management. So...whatever comes out of the ACAS talks, will colour the approach that the Unite leadership might take. My guess is that there will be some pretty hardball conversations. Messrs Woodley and Simpson will need to work out whether to support BASSA one more time, or to call it a day and, as in the last dispute, sign a deal over the heads of BASSA. This latter course of action may turn certain members incandescent with rage, leaving them with no option but to leave the union or call for wildcat acton which will get them sacked. The ball is firmly in Unite's court. Unless they can find a really strong cause to rally the rank and file, they are dead in the water. BA have been very careful not to give the union that strong cause.
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Unless they can find a really strong cause to rally the rank and file, they are dead in the water.
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Ah,
You might wish to ponder the reality of what the "58 hrs" conversion training actually entails. The groundschool is 2 weeks in and of itself followed by a number (in double figures) of simulator details, followed by line training and route check. How many qualified trainers do you think we have, let alone trainers willing to train up their own replacements, or outsiders who are conversant with BA FCPM, FCTM and SOP?
You might wish to ponder the reality of what the "58 hrs" conversion training actually entails. The groundschool is 2 weeks in and of itself followed by a number (in double figures) of simulator details, followed by line training and route check. How many qualified trainers do you think we have, let alone trainers willing to train up their own replacements, or outsiders who are conversant with BA FCPM, FCTM and SOP?
I don't meant to be flipant here, but most know the (pilot/CC) jobs are so different, but just because we share the same "office", people compare as equals for terms/conditions/scheme. This point goes for Waterside employee's and other ground staff - we all love our jobs in BA and all have their stresses/T&C's related to that, based on some sort of industry standard - not based against the cabin crew or other work groups.
I just wish the cabin crew would compare what they had against other airlines/the world economy and be grateful that :-
a) they have a job
b) they have had it good for so long
..... but the times are now a changing, I think the appropriate axiom is "adapt or die" .
I think the 900+ people who have signed the BA agreement are very sensible and will end up with better t&C's than those that haven't. If a strike ballot is called, the offer I am sure will subtly change and obviously be worse, and this may go on and on the longer strikes go on (well someone has to pay for this cost to BA) ... a good reason not to be in BASSA. I am sure WW will not sack people as he has been very fair, but he can make peoples lives very difficult if he chooses.
I used to think that CC who say they are staying in BASSA just to vote and once its all solved, they will leave, had a very good view. Now i am not too sure as they may loose the right to take the current offer from BA, whilst due to the strong number of militants and fractured leadership, their vote will not really change anything. What do others think ?
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I am sure WW will not sack people as he has been very fair, but he can make peoples lives very difficult if he chooses.
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I used to think that CC who say they are staying in BASSA just to vote and once its all solved, they will leave, had a very good view. Now i am not too sure as they may loose the right to take the current offer from BA, whilst due to the strong number of militants and fractured leadership, their vote will not really change anything. What do others think ?
Any one who still is is simply funding this futile cause and subsidising those who gets commission on every member. It dismays me that many cabin crew still pay their membership fees to this disgraceful bunch, who can do nothing but produce one faux pas after another.
If you came to work during the strike you are serving no useful purpose paying your membership fees to Unite. Do you think they will help you if you had, say an EG300 meeting to attend?
Resign now.Oh, and while you're at it, join the Professional Cabin Crew Council at www.mypccc.co.uk
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Good post License to Fly and well said HiFlyer.
BASSA won't give the members who crossed the picket line the time of day. This is evident on 'other' forums where some of them are being given a tough time saying they'll be hounded and that they are. How did it ever get to this stage?
My experience with crew generally has always been that they are a nice bunch of people. How did the atmosphere get so toxic and a minority get so venomous that they are making the lives of the crew who came to work so miserable. The bullying is only one way, from the militant BASSA minority
It's sad to see the divide in our crew community where we are now fighting each other instead of collectively trying to preserve or save our jobs from Mixed Fleet. There is no denying that in 20 years time, present fleets may cease to exist but then as previously said, we've had it really good for a long time.
Things have to change, accepted, but it's the way you go about accepting that change.
Striking is not an option.
BASSA have no choice but to accept this decent offer on the table, grab it now before it gets worse and then deal with Staff Travel. A bird in the hand springs to mind....
BASSA won't give the members who crossed the picket line the time of day. This is evident on 'other' forums where some of them are being given a tough time saying they'll be hounded and that they are. How did it ever get to this stage?
My experience with crew generally has always been that they are a nice bunch of people. How did the atmosphere get so toxic and a minority get so venomous that they are making the lives of the crew who came to work so miserable. The bullying is only one way, from the militant BASSA minority
It's sad to see the divide in our crew community where we are now fighting each other instead of collectively trying to preserve or save our jobs from Mixed Fleet. There is no denying that in 20 years time, present fleets may cease to exist but then as previously said, we've had it really good for a long time.
Things have to change, accepted, but it's the way you go about accepting that change.
Striking is not an option.
BASSA have no choice but to accept this decent offer on the table, grab it now before it gets worse and then deal with Staff Travel. A bird in the hand springs to mind....
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PCCC
HiFlyer and all other PCCC reps,
I think that what you are doing is a great idea and I genuinely admire you for what you have done so far. However, until at least one figure head removes him or herself from anonymity, I think that your organisation struggles to gain real credibility. I'd love for you to succeed but I feel that unless someone stands up to BASSA publicly, proving that there is no shame in being associated with an alternative point of view, the PCCC will never really "get airborne". More likely, BASSA will continue to be the main union for cabin crew, albeit with some new (and hopefully more moderate) reps (which actually I don't see as a bad thing at all if it can hold real credibility with the majority of crew).
Just my humble opinion of course - and I understand the pressure you are under - but I feel a real, visible leader is needed here to dispel all of the negative propaganda that BASSA spurt (including about the PCCC).
Best of luck anyway with what you set out to achieve!!
I think that what you are doing is a great idea and I genuinely admire you for what you have done so far. However, until at least one figure head removes him or herself from anonymity, I think that your organisation struggles to gain real credibility. I'd love for you to succeed but I feel that unless someone stands up to BASSA publicly, proving that there is no shame in being associated with an alternative point of view, the PCCC will never really "get airborne". More likely, BASSA will continue to be the main union for cabin crew, albeit with some new (and hopefully more moderate) reps (which actually I don't see as a bad thing at all if it can hold real credibility with the majority of crew).
Just my humble opinion of course - and I understand the pressure you are under - but I feel a real, visible leader is needed here to dispel all of the negative propaganda that BASSA spurt (including about the PCCC).
Best of luck anyway with what you set out to achieve!!
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I wonder if Simpson and Woodley are aware of the 'anti BASSA' strength of feeling.
I guess if they were, they certainly would not make it public. If I was a member of UNITE, I would certainly let it be known prior to withdrawing my membership.
I wonder if they are as frustrated as the rest of us.
DH certainly has his own agenda here, but, sadly, he's leading naive folk to their demise.
I guess if they were, they certainly would not make it public. If I was a member of UNITE, I would certainly let it be known prior to withdrawing my membership.
I wonder if they are as frustrated as the rest of us.
DH certainly has his own agenda here, but, sadly, he's leading naive folk to their demise.