British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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I am really sick to the back teeth of this lot (BASSA) now. DH writes this tripe and it goes on the BASSA website, and people believe it. I have had enough of trying to reason with some strikers, as I realise I am getting nowhere (and have not for quite some time).
Its really starting to grate on me that a bunch of reps can desseminate this rubbish and demonise members of our BA community (non-strikers, WW, BF , BALPA etc etc) and there appears to be nothing done about it. I heard a crew member boast on a trip that they had only lost £270 in allowances and got £350 in strike pay from BASSA and this I found got right on my nerves.
Is something ever going to be done about the rubbish that they are spouting? I have a meeting with my manager in the next few day (over something else) and I am going to making my grievances heard.
There is a cross section of our workforce just going round doing as they please, with no comeback on them, plotting more and more strikes and the damage to the BA brand is being felt (look at the losses this quarter).
I come into work, and some people don't speak to me anymore (not that that bothers me) but I just think where is all this going to end? The divide in crew community is, I feel too large to repair at the moment and coming into work everyday is a bit of a grind at the moment.
Rant over.
AD
Its really starting to grate on me that a bunch of reps can desseminate this rubbish and demonise members of our BA community (non-strikers, WW, BF , BALPA etc etc) and there appears to be nothing done about it. I heard a crew member boast on a trip that they had only lost £270 in allowances and got £350 in strike pay from BASSA and this I found got right on my nerves.
Is something ever going to be done about the rubbish that they are spouting? I have a meeting with my manager in the next few day (over something else) and I am going to making my grievances heard.
There is a cross section of our workforce just going round doing as they please, with no comeback on them, plotting more and more strikes and the damage to the BA brand is being felt (look at the losses this quarter).
I come into work, and some people don't speak to me anymore (not that that bothers me) but I just think where is all this going to end? The divide in crew community is, I feel too large to repair at the moment and coming into work everyday is a bit of a grind at the moment.
Rant over.
AD
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Over the past few weeks, I have also flown with a number of cabin crew who are ex-temps and now back in the company, or existing crew, that are aiming to be CSM's/Future Talent - from my experience, these guys all have a great attitude and are a pleasure to fly with.
They are doing a mixture of short/longhaul and I am hearing that certain BASSA crew are ignoring them on flights (or saying as little as possible making the trip horrible) - has anyone else seen (or experienced) this ?
They are doing a mixture of short/longhaul and I am hearing that certain BASSA crew are ignoring them on flights (or saying as little as possible making the trip horrible) - has anyone else seen (or experienced) this ?
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They are doing a mixture of short/longhaul and I am hearing that certain BASSA crew are ignoring them on flights (or saying as little as possible making the trip horrible) - has anyone else seen (or experienced) this ?
I just think, rise above it and hopefully it will be over soon ( I Hope).
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It is heartbreaking that our once great community has been reduced to such a low level.
It is an absolute travesty that union reps, who take £10-15 per month in subscription fees from our community and purport to represent us, can spend their time and our hard-earned money writing such tripe. Is there no Union watchdog to report this blatant abuse of funds to?
The greatest travesty is, however, that we now appear to be trapped in this mess with no way out. Many cabin crew are, it would appear, adopting a "not my aisle" attitude, and simply not getting involved in any way - hence the poor return on the union ballot. They continue, albeit unwittingly, to support the union by not cancelling their membership, yet fail to vote in a crucial ballot that effects their future. Why?
Is there no way out of this mess? Can BA not de-recognise Unite? The Professional Cabin Crew Council is trying to point out to our community the damage that Unite is inflicting on us. It would appear that our community, perhaps due to the sheer intensity, complexity and length of the situation, are now unable/unwilling to even participate in the decisions about our future. They are not resigning from the union, they are not partaking in important ballots - they simply appear to think that by not getting involved the problem will disappear.
How can we help our community to help ourselves to get out of this appalling situation?
It is an absolute travesty that union reps, who take £10-15 per month in subscription fees from our community and purport to represent us, can spend their time and our hard-earned money writing such tripe. Is there no Union watchdog to report this blatant abuse of funds to?
The greatest travesty is, however, that we now appear to be trapped in this mess with no way out. Many cabin crew are, it would appear, adopting a "not my aisle" attitude, and simply not getting involved in any way - hence the poor return on the union ballot. They continue, albeit unwittingly, to support the union by not cancelling their membership, yet fail to vote in a crucial ballot that effects their future. Why?
Is there no way out of this mess? Can BA not de-recognise Unite? The Professional Cabin Crew Council is trying to point out to our community the damage that Unite is inflicting on us. It would appear that our community, perhaps due to the sheer intensity, complexity and length of the situation, are now unable/unwilling to even participate in the decisions about our future. They are not resigning from the union, they are not partaking in important ballots - they simply appear to think that by not getting involved the problem will disappear.
How can we help our community to help ourselves to get out of this appalling situation?
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HiFlyer,
I genuinely feel your frustration and, at the risk of being pessimistic, I fear there is little solution left now but to sit back and see what the end game (as and when it arrives) will bring. I think you highlight a major point when you note that many seem to have adopted the "not my aisle" mentality. Would it be fair of me to say that, in general, crew are not the most confrontational of individuals (CrewForum etc notwithstanding) and as such, without the sure and certain knowledge of support from a large body of like-minded individuals, they aren't going to raise their heads above the parapet? I think the efforts made with the PCCC are laudable indeed and I hope they still bear some useful fruit in this current environment where it seems a good number of bets are being hedged.
I fear that, to be honest, however we're not going to see much change for now. Those that were minded to be persuaded have, I reckon, by now been so influenced. The rest are either entrenched in the Unite (well, BASSA) camp or are sat in the middle either waiting to see what happens or praying it all goes away. That's probably just human nature mind you.
But, it doesn't help when you deal with a number of people who shape their own reality to suit their desires. As I read somewhere once, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts and that's the problem with BASSA. The reality is what the newsletter tells the membership and no other information will be entertained.
Is there a way out of that without the actual excision of such a core from the company? I don't know. I did hope so once upon a time, I'm now less and less certain.
Sad doesn't even begin to cover it.
MrB
I genuinely feel your frustration and, at the risk of being pessimistic, I fear there is little solution left now but to sit back and see what the end game (as and when it arrives) will bring. I think you highlight a major point when you note that many seem to have adopted the "not my aisle" mentality. Would it be fair of me to say that, in general, crew are not the most confrontational of individuals (CrewForum etc notwithstanding) and as such, without the sure and certain knowledge of support from a large body of like-minded individuals, they aren't going to raise their heads above the parapet? I think the efforts made with the PCCC are laudable indeed and I hope they still bear some useful fruit in this current environment where it seems a good number of bets are being hedged.
I fear that, to be honest, however we're not going to see much change for now. Those that were minded to be persuaded have, I reckon, by now been so influenced. The rest are either entrenched in the Unite (well, BASSA) camp or are sat in the middle either waiting to see what happens or praying it all goes away. That's probably just human nature mind you.
But, it doesn't help when you deal with a number of people who shape their own reality to suit their desires. As I read somewhere once, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts and that's the problem with BASSA. The reality is what the newsletter tells the membership and no other information will be entertained.
Is there a way out of that without the actual excision of such a core from the company? I don't know. I did hope so once upon a time, I'm now less and less certain.
Sad doesn't even begin to cover it.
MrB
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So Giza, are you looking forward to working over Christmas?
How will you keep yourself current with your cabin crew training until that time without doing any flying? You wouldn't want to risk passengers lives with your own lack of knowledge and experience would you?
By the way, has your department finished negotiating with the LT?
How will you keep yourself current with your cabin crew training until that time without doing any flying? You wouldn't want to risk passengers lives with your own lack of knowledge and experience would you?
By the way, has your department finished negotiating with the LT?
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How will you keep yourself current with your cabin crew training until that time without doing any flying? You wouldn't want to risk passengers lives with your own lack of knowledge and experience would you?
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Contrary to Duggies evident belief lots of BA employees work over Christmas, not just cabin crew. The prospect of spending the day somewhere sunny with the family in tow on a free duty ticket is probably quite exciting for them. I'd imagine they'd also do something more downroute than sitting in their rooms sulking that they've had to work, which is what most of the crew have done on the Christmas trips I've worked.
And by the way, every department in BA has finished this round of negotiations with the Leadership Team with the exception of Duggies.
And by the way, every department in BA has finished this round of negotiations with the Leadership Team with the exception of Duggies.
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I am also interested to know if VCC's would fly on Iberia aircraft when the time comes?
Surely if the belief is that Iberia is in a "fight for survival" and now we are merged with that company, by implication, if Iberia failed it would have serious consequences for British Airways?
This line of propaganda has worked so far to encourage employees of other departments within BA to train as VCC's. Why not at Iberia?
TC. Some sections of groundstaff have not settled. BA are a little reluctant at the mo to continue negotiations, no doubt wanting to wait and see the result of the cabin crew dispute first. Please get your facts right.
There are not many "sunny" routes out of LHR in case you didn't know, unless you mean somewhere like Lagos. Yes the kids would love it there.
Surely if the belief is that Iberia is in a "fight for survival" and now we are merged with that company, by implication, if Iberia failed it would have serious consequences for British Airways?
This line of propaganda has worked so far to encourage employees of other departments within BA to train as VCC's. Why not at Iberia?
TC. Some sections of groundstaff have not settled. BA are a little reluctant at the mo to continue negotiations, no doubt wanting to wait and see the result of the cabin crew dispute first. Please get your facts right.
There are not many "sunny" routes out of LHR in case you didn't know, unless you mean somewhere like Lagos. Yes the kids would love it there.
Last edited by Duggie Fashion; 1st Aug 2010 at 11:39.
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From Dougie,
So Giza, are you looking forward to working over Christmas?
How will you keep yourself current with your cabin crew training until that time without doing any flying? You wouldn't want to risk passengers lives with your own lack of knowledge and experience would you?
By the way, has your department finished negotiating with the LT?
Giza is training now and I have also just finished VCC training. I like Giza have worked over many Christmas periods more on than off. Now, spending Christmas with the missis somewhere new will be interesting. Maybe on a beach.
Recency same for us as normal CC. You haven't done your homework have you.
My dept finished negotiating one year ago.
So Giza, are you looking forward to working over Christmas?
How will you keep yourself current with your cabin crew training until that time without doing any flying? You wouldn't want to risk passengers lives with your own lack of knowledge and experience would you?
By the way, has your department finished negotiating with the LT?
Giza is training now and I have also just finished VCC training. I like Giza have worked over many Christmas periods more on than off. Now, spending Christmas with the missis somewhere new will be interesting. Maybe on a beach.
Recency same for us as normal CC. You haven't done your homework have you.
My dept finished negotiating one year ago.
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I happen to know two VCC who have just done trips to UVF in order to maintain recency. Isn't UVF from LGW, you might say. Yes, and it's done because the LGW cabin crew are happy to work with VCC. It's so much better for those VCC to fly from LGW rather than LHR where they might have encountered sour-faced strikers.
These flights also highlight the versatility of VCC who can fly from LHR and LGW on 777s and the A320 family plus 747s from LHR.
These flights also highlight the versatility of VCC who can fly from LHR and LGW on 777s and the A320 family plus 747s from LHR.
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Quite the opposite in fact. Projects have been put on hold/delayed to accommodate VCC, and staff are working overtime to provide cover.
On the other hand, cabin crew go on an "all out" strike and the vast majority of flights still operate.
Now who's proving to be dispensable?
On the other hand, cabin crew go on an "all out" strike and the vast majority of flights still operate.
Now who's proving to be dispensable?
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Duggie, Duggie, Duggie.
We've been over this haven't we.
Many, many posts responding to your numerous BASSA soundbites stating:
1. How other departments are COPING with losing staff to VCC.
2. How those departments are not overstaffed - quite the opposite.
3. How those departments have ALREADY had cuts and made many efficiency savings. (hence point 2 above)
4.How VCC are doing EXACTLY the same training as regular crew from a safety perspective. SEP, AVMED, Security the lot.
Actually this is more of a message to everyone else. DF does not read the replies. (not sure why I keep bothering).
He/she does not WANT to read the replies.
Just pops-in every now and then with the message of the day (WW out last week - now it's attacks on VCC)
Mods - freedom of speech and all that, but DF does NOTHING for the debate.
And worse - causes pages of replies (me included) which just fuels the fire and doesn't progress the thread for anyone as we go round and round and round.
We've been over this haven't we.
Many, many posts responding to your numerous BASSA soundbites stating:
1. How other departments are COPING with losing staff to VCC.
2. How those departments are not overstaffed - quite the opposite.
3. How those departments have ALREADY had cuts and made many efficiency savings. (hence point 2 above)
4.How VCC are doing EXACTLY the same training as regular crew from a safety perspective. SEP, AVMED, Security the lot.
Actually this is more of a message to everyone else. DF does not read the replies. (not sure why I keep bothering).
He/she does not WANT to read the replies.
Just pops-in every now and then with the message of the day (WW out last week - now it's attacks on VCC)
Mods - freedom of speech and all that, but DF does NOTHING for the debate.
And worse - causes pages of replies (me included) which just fuels the fire and doesn't progress the thread for anyone as we go round and round and round.
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Oh dear Spanner. You lose the argument and then have to complain to the Mods. Very poor debating by you. Stick to the facts and the theme of the discussion.
VCC's are being allowed to leave their departments as those departments ultimately will be farmed out to agency staff. All they are doing is speeding up the process.
Its not as if BA's pilots are blindly oblivious to the fact that agency pilots may be used as cruise pilots in the future, plus the hours they are creditied with whilst snoozing in the bunks will only count 50% towards their cap. Emirates do that, so why not BA? Seems a good idea to me. What will BA's pilots do if agency cruise pilots are brought in to save money. Go on strike? Surely not!
VCC's will not find flying so much fun if their own ground job disappears and they are left with Mixed Fleet flying on £11,000 a year and £2.40 an hour.
Think about it, you are digging your own grave.
VCC's are being allowed to leave their departments as those departments ultimately will be farmed out to agency staff. All they are doing is speeding up the process.
Its not as if BA's pilots are blindly oblivious to the fact that agency pilots may be used as cruise pilots in the future, plus the hours they are creditied with whilst snoozing in the bunks will only count 50% towards their cap. Emirates do that, so why not BA? Seems a good idea to me. What will BA's pilots do if agency cruise pilots are brought in to save money. Go on strike? Surely not!
VCC's will not find flying so much fun if their own ground job disappears and they are left with Mixed Fleet flying on £11,000 a year and £2.40 an hour.
Think about it, you are digging your own grave.
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Duggie,
Once again you're in danger of allowing your lack of facts to spoil your otherwise erudite postings. Tell me, and please, if able, with references where you have evidence that those taking up VCC posts will ultimately be replaced by agency staff. Or, dare I suggest, it's no more than fanciful supposition on your part? It's a very BASSAesque line to take isn't it? Endeavour to plant seeds of doubt or fear in a group of individuals in order that they see the world your way. Never, however, referencing to fact, precedent or any other form of actual evidence. It may only be a bugbear of my own but it's the longhand equivalent of using "FACT" in capital letters.
With regard to agency pilots acting as cruise pilots I'd really suggest that you check the regulatory and training requirements pertaining to this sort of action before you suggest it's a viable course of action for BA in the event of a dispute with flight crew. The costs and time involved are practically infinite in comparison to the VCC programme and, thus, we'd have to be costing them a massive amount of money, and be worth the sacrifice to gain the prize.
Sadly for your assertion, we don't conduct our business dealings with the airline in the same manner that BASSA do so, I trust, we won't have to encounter the hypothesis.
As for the hours towards CAP, you again demonstrate a lack of understanding. A cruise pilot would be in the flight deck for 2/3rds of the flight (on a 3 crew trip) and, as now, would log 2/3rds of the hours for 900 hrs purposes. Where CAP is concerned, the pilot is credited for the entire trip. CAP is not necessarily related to length of flight, indeed there are a number of methods for calculating the pertinent trip credit. But of course, you knew that, didn't you?
Marginally I'm pained to say that once one strips away the relatively sophisticated sentence construction we're not left with much more than another BASSA scaremongering exercise. It's particularly telling that almost to a man and a woman, not one has been able to come on here and dispassionately present a factual, rational and calm explanation of why they've felt driven to go on strike. As you yourself say at the beginning of your post, stick to the facts. Is that beyond anyone's capability on the pro-strike side of the argument?
MrB
Once again you're in danger of allowing your lack of facts to spoil your otherwise erudite postings. Tell me, and please, if able, with references where you have evidence that those taking up VCC posts will ultimately be replaced by agency staff. Or, dare I suggest, it's no more than fanciful supposition on your part? It's a very BASSAesque line to take isn't it? Endeavour to plant seeds of doubt or fear in a group of individuals in order that they see the world your way. Never, however, referencing to fact, precedent or any other form of actual evidence. It may only be a bugbear of my own but it's the longhand equivalent of using "FACT" in capital letters.
With regard to agency pilots acting as cruise pilots I'd really suggest that you check the regulatory and training requirements pertaining to this sort of action before you suggest it's a viable course of action for BA in the event of a dispute with flight crew. The costs and time involved are practically infinite in comparison to the VCC programme and, thus, we'd have to be costing them a massive amount of money, and be worth the sacrifice to gain the prize.
Sadly for your assertion, we don't conduct our business dealings with the airline in the same manner that BASSA do so, I trust, we won't have to encounter the hypothesis.
As for the hours towards CAP, you again demonstrate a lack of understanding. A cruise pilot would be in the flight deck for 2/3rds of the flight (on a 3 crew trip) and, as now, would log 2/3rds of the hours for 900 hrs purposes. Where CAP is concerned, the pilot is credited for the entire trip. CAP is not necessarily related to length of flight, indeed there are a number of methods for calculating the pertinent trip credit. But of course, you knew that, didn't you?
Marginally I'm pained to say that once one strips away the relatively sophisticated sentence construction we're not left with much more than another BASSA scaremongering exercise. It's particularly telling that almost to a man and a woman, not one has been able to come on here and dispassionately present a factual, rational and calm explanation of why they've felt driven to go on strike. As you yourself say at the beginning of your post, stick to the facts. Is that beyond anyone's capability on the pro-strike side of the argument?
MrB
Last edited by MrBunker; 1st Aug 2010 at 16:09.
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BA has also closed down cabin crew bases at MAN, GLA etc (where was BASSA then)?
The point about agency staff could apply equally to LHR cabin crew, whose costs are proportionally by far the most above market rate and are the most resistant to any change.
The point about agency staff could apply equally to LHR cabin crew, whose costs are proportionally by far the most above market rate and are the most resistant to any change.
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Hi Duggie,
Thanks for brightening a bit of a dull day with more BASSA scaremongering. (I am reduced to watching pre-season football on the box at the moment.)
Quite how the closure of bases like MAN and GLA has relevance to VCC jobs at LHR is a bit beyond me, but do elaborate. I'm going to enjoy this.
Thanks for brightening a bit of a dull day with more BASSA scaremongering. (I am reduced to watching pre-season football on the box at the moment.)
Quite how the closure of bases like MAN and GLA has relevance to VCC jobs at LHR is a bit beyond me, but do elaborate. I'm going to enjoy this.
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Duggie ...
So pleased to see you around again. Have you come up with any answers to the question I posed ..ooohh it was ages back... What has BASSA achieved to date from this dispute ?You see it's all very well going on about how VCC must come from overstaffed departments or they are showing how dispensable they are, but I've yet to hear one soundbite from anyone supporting BASSA that can tell me if cabin crew are now better off as a result of, what is it, 19 months negotiation ? And what, pray, will cabin crew get out of any furtherance of this dispute. Not more money. Not improved working conditions, in fact what exactly are BASSA looking for ? Oh yes, that's it. The return of staff travel with full seniority. And how many people are affected ? Is it more than 50% of cabin crew ?