British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Back to staff travel for a second.
I take it you realise that in the unlikely event of BASSA winning it's case and staff travel being declared "contractual" for cabin crew, HMRC will be highly likely to tax it as a "benefit in kind".
Given that staff travel means that all seats are theoretically available (ie. including a First Class seat to SYD) and given that all staff are allowed either two additional friends or partner and kids as their nominees, you're lining yourselves up for (another) big tax hit.
If you lose, you don't get your staff travel back so if you intend to continue flying with BA (as a commuter, say), it's going to cost you several hundred extra pounds per month. If you win, the tax man will tax you on the value of the perk and it's going to cost you several hundred extra pounds per month (ironically, whether you use it or not).
Law of unintended consequences anyone?
I take it you realise that in the unlikely event of BASSA winning it's case and staff travel being declared "contractual" for cabin crew, HMRC will be highly likely to tax it as a "benefit in kind".
Given that staff travel means that all seats are theoretically available (ie. including a First Class seat to SYD) and given that all staff are allowed either two additional friends or partner and kids as their nominees, you're lining yourselves up for (another) big tax hit.
If you lose, you don't get your staff travel back so if you intend to continue flying with BA (as a commuter, say), it's going to cost you several hundred extra pounds per month. If you win, the tax man will tax you on the value of the perk and it's going to cost you several hundred extra pounds per month (ironically, whether you use it or not).
Law of unintended consequences anyone?
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In principle I don't disagree but who decides what is right and what is wrong?
we live in a society where you are innocent until proven guilty
punishment, which has not been administered correctly
I have stated that there are many arguments about this issue, not least of which is that the only thing hindering the return of ST is the union's stance - they have rejected ST return under the conditions offered. So any "damage" done to the strikers by the removal of ST has been increased and enhanced by their own union. This is a complex case and not in any way, shape or form as black and white as some on this forum wish it to be.
Let it go to court, let the judge decide who has acted within the law or otherwise. In the meantime perhaps BASSA could refocus on dealing with the meat of the issue, rather than this side dish.
Human Factor
HMRC did have a go at ST some years ago. They proposed to tax the fare at the full price value of class travelled, as a ''benefit in kind''.
After some time the proposal was dropped, but not before threats by crew not to carry Govt Ministers etc etc!!, probably not workable.
The fact that ST was not contractual only a 'perk', counted heavily in our favour of HMRC not proceeding at that time.
If BASSA win a case, using the contractual argument, this could mean a huge tax implication for all staff.
After some time the proposal was dropped, but not before threats by crew not to carry Govt Ministers etc etc!!, probably not workable.
The fact that ST was not contractual only a 'perk', counted heavily in our favour of HMRC not proceeding at that time.
If BASSA win a case, using the contractual argument, this could mean a huge tax implication for all staff.
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Safety Concerns,
I don't care about punishment or who decides it. My concern is that there is so much focus on ST (what was the strike about?) that the BASSAmentalists cannot see that the final stage of the game is happening NOW. The Board have decided to remove the festering sore of militant "career" cabin crew who only want to go to HKG, SIN, etc... on a 33% contract, working in First whilst throwing out food in their race to get to the bunks. Blinds down. Cabin temp 26. BOM - "I'll go sick". Poor performance - "I'm being bullied...". Caught stealing - "I'm off sick with stress". The list goes on...
So BASSAmentalists - enjoy looking for work whilst you wait for your employment tribunals. The Board, the rest of BA and the passengers have had enough of you. You are NOT BA.
I don't care about punishment or who decides it. My concern is that there is so much focus on ST (what was the strike about?) that the BASSAmentalists cannot see that the final stage of the game is happening NOW. The Board have decided to remove the festering sore of militant "career" cabin crew who only want to go to HKG, SIN, etc... on a 33% contract, working in First whilst throwing out food in their race to get to the bunks. Blinds down. Cabin temp 26. BOM - "I'll go sick". Poor performance - "I'm being bullied...". Caught stealing - "I'm off sick with stress". The list goes on...
So BASSAmentalists - enjoy looking for work whilst you wait for your employment tribunals. The Board, the rest of BA and the passengers have had enough of you. You are NOT BA.
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How many
I'll be modded out of here I should think but I'll risk it for the chance of knowledgeable replies:
1. How do BASSA calculate the numbers of their own members and are numbers audited/checked?
2. 7000 strike pay claims but only 3500 ST withdrawals. How?
1. How do BASSA calculate the numbers of their own members and are numbers audited/checked?
2. 7000 strike pay claims but only 3500 ST withdrawals. How?
Last edited by mrpony; 30th Jul 2010 at 11:18.
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St arguments
At the ST discussion rumbles on and on, it might be helpful to identify that there are three quite different threads to this topic. When replying, why not make clear which one you are on about?
1. Is the removal of ST deemed to be illegal punishment of strikers.
I have no comment here. The courts will decide, albeit probably too late to have any meaningful impact on the outcome of the dispute.
2. Is ST contractual?
Nice if it was proved to be. But as a group of retirees have already found to their cost, I would not fancy the chances on this one as being any higher than about 10%. Also every login to staff ESS system for the past two years has made us sign agreement to the terms & condition that it is not a contractual right.
3. If it were to be proved contractual, would it be taxed as a benefit in kind?
This is very similar to the issue as it pertains to Frequent Flyer miles where our business customers can earn free trips using miles that were effectively given as a benefit in kind by their employer who paid for the ticket.
Thinking about this gives HMRC two problems:
1. It would politically unpopular, as the same logic applies to ST and BA miles. As all the 'top people' have shedloads of BA miles they would have to think twice about voting for this one!
More to the point, there is a strong argument that an ST ticket has no market value. There is no equivalent in the commercial market of a fare where you can be turfed off the plane even after boarding just because another higher fare paying passenger has showed up at the last minute. It is not even technically a 'standby fare', because even in the days when we did have commercial standby, once accepted for the flight you were not removed.
Like it or not, and apart from certain Captains' wives, there is no such thing as a 'firm' ticket...and we all know it. So don't lose sleep about being taxed 'hundreds of pounds' on a seat to Sydney. It just won't happen.
1. Is the removal of ST deemed to be illegal punishment of strikers.
I have no comment here. The courts will decide, albeit probably too late to have any meaningful impact on the outcome of the dispute.
2. Is ST contractual?
Nice if it was proved to be. But as a group of retirees have already found to their cost, I would not fancy the chances on this one as being any higher than about 10%. Also every login to staff ESS system for the past two years has made us sign agreement to the terms & condition that it is not a contractual right.
3. If it were to be proved contractual, would it be taxed as a benefit in kind?
This is very similar to the issue as it pertains to Frequent Flyer miles where our business customers can earn free trips using miles that were effectively given as a benefit in kind by their employer who paid for the ticket.
Thinking about this gives HMRC two problems:
1. It would politically unpopular, as the same logic applies to ST and BA miles. As all the 'top people' have shedloads of BA miles they would have to think twice about voting for this one!
More to the point, there is a strong argument that an ST ticket has no market value. There is no equivalent in the commercial market of a fare where you can be turfed off the plane even after boarding just because another higher fare paying passenger has showed up at the last minute. It is not even technically a 'standby fare', because even in the days when we did have commercial standby, once accepted for the flight you were not removed.
Like it or not, and apart from certain Captains' wives, there is no such thing as a 'firm' ticket...and we all know it. So don't lose sleep about being taxed 'hundreds of pounds' on a seat to Sydney. It just won't happen.
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I'd love to be a fly on the wall and know exactly what Willie Walsh thinks of BASSA taking BA to court for loss of Staff Travel claiming it's a breach of human rights?
when he has finished laughing, someone might ask him
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Just in cae anyone was still in any doubt about the mentality of the militants, here is a typical response to todays financial results:
Still in the deluded mindset that the cabin crew are the only group being asked to make cutbacks! They also seem to overlook the fact that BA have cut a huge amount of cost out of the business (I wonder where they think those savings were made given that crew are the only group being asked to make cuts) and would have made a far smaller loss if they'd behaved in a responsible fashion instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in an ultimately doomed hissy fit!
They get rid of 1,400 of us and still make a massive loss.
Proves they are barking up the wrong tree and WE are not the problem.
They should scrap Mixed Fleet, and rationalise savings across the WHOLE company.
The strategy of just targeting ONE workgroup is obviously not working.
All they have achieved is losing thousands of customers, dragged the company to it's lowest ebb and left it divided and unfit for the future.
Time for a new board with a new strategy that is inclusive and morale-building, not the destructive and fear instilling regime we have now.
Proves they are barking up the wrong tree and WE are not the problem.
They should scrap Mixed Fleet, and rationalise savings across the WHOLE company.
The strategy of just targeting ONE workgroup is obviously not working.
All they have achieved is losing thousands of customers, dragged the company to it's lowest ebb and left it divided and unfit for the future.
Time for a new board with a new strategy that is inclusive and morale-building, not the destructive and fear instilling regime we have now.
) and would have made a far smaller loss if they'd behaved in a responsible fashion instead of throwing their toys out of the pram in an ultimately doomed hissy fit!
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Time for a new board with a new strategy that is inclusive and morale-building, not the destructive and fear instilling regime we have now.
A new board that is fearful of us, BASSA, that cower to us, and ensures that the the underlings take the hit, not us, 'cos we are the 'creme de la creme' of British Airways!
I've never been so enraged by these load of blankety blanks in all my many years within this Airline.
I'm
angry!!
Junior trash
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So heres a direct quote from DH on the BASSA forum. Be awful if it got taken the wrong way by the judiciary. Contempt of court anyone?
Willy the way things are working out, I think a 12 day strike at Xmas could swiftly become a reality.
I hope Justice Cox is not planning to going skiing again this Xmas.
I hope Justice Cox is not planning to going skiing again this Xmas.
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Oh Duncan, do you really need to be publicly shamed again by another press release from the Judicial Communications Office?
Judicial Communications Office | Media releases | Mrs Justice Cox
Judicial Communications Office | Media releases | Mrs Justice Cox
There has been a series of unfounded allegations that Mrs Justice Cox flew on British Airways over the recent Christmas/New Year holiday period.
The Judicial Communications Office announced today that Mrs Justice Cox did not fly with British Airways, or on any other airline, over the Christmas/New Year period.
Had the judge been intending to fly with British Airways she would have declared this fact and recused herself from hearing the case 'British Airways plc -v- Unite the Union' because of the obvious conflict of interest which would have arisen.
The Judicial Communications Office announced today that Mrs Justice Cox did not fly with British Airways, or on any other airline, over the Christmas/New Year period.
Had the judge been intending to fly with British Airways she would have declared this fact and recused herself from hearing the case 'British Airways plc -v- Unite the Union' because of the obvious conflict of interest which would have arisen.
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I am convinced that there is no-one who BASSA will not insult, except for their own. They are truly vile
Now the results are out we see that the strikes/ash cost BA £250m yet the 1/4 loss was £164m.
So a big thank-you to all the strikers who helped contribute to the loss.
The rest of us have taken pay cuts and other economy measures to help turn the company around.
WHAT HAS BASSA DONE except lose us money? A lot of people are very angry about this.
Now the results are out we see that the strikes/ash cost BA £250m yet the 1/4 loss was £164m.
So a big thank-you to all the strikers who helped contribute to the loss.
The rest of us have taken pay cuts and other economy measures to help turn the company around.
WHAT HAS BASSA DONE except lose us money? A lot of people are very angry about this.
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Word of caution
Before people run of with the notion that the numbers being touted don't stack up with BASSA's own figures, it is worth remembering that the consultative ballot was put to all Unite members. Now there is one group within that block that has been strangely silent throughout large parts of this dispute. I refer of course to CabinCrew89, who form part of the Amicus wing of Unite. Now, does anyone have a clue as to how many members CC89 had at the start of all this and how many they are now left with ? You see, if CC89 have been hit with a large number of members leaving, it's maybe in a more difficult position than BASSA. What odds that the 1600 or so who voted to accept the deal offered were CC89 members ?
Is it time for CC89, as the more moderate face of Unite, to come out of the shadows ? Might just improve their membership numbers
Is it time for CC89, as the more moderate face of Unite, to come out of the shadows ? Might just improve their membership numbers
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Thoughtful
How thoughtful of BASSA, they claim to represent thier members, but they have not consulted on when a strike would be with them, by delaying to December they commit commuters (the people most hurt by ST ban) to months of additional cost of getting to work. Ava has already alluded, she will have to resign if this is not sorted out in the next couple of months.
G.
G.
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Guardian quotes Willie Walsh
article here
British Airways divides workers over pay and perks | Business | The Guardian
that more than 900 of its 12,000 UK-based cabin crew staff who are not members of Unite had accepted the offer ahead of deadline tomorrow
British Airways divides workers over pay and perks | Business | The Guardian
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BA, Unite dispute number of strikers
From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/bay/7919230/BAs-Willie-Walsh-rounds-on-union-as-losses-mount.html.
Mr Walsh said the strikers were "less than 5,000 and we know our figures are correct. It would appear that their [Unite's] administrative systems aren't working."
A Unite spokesman hit back saying: "We know the figures because we are processing strike pay and we have already passed the 6,500 mark."
A Unite spokesman hit back saying: "We know the figures because we are processing strike pay and we have already passed the 6,500 mark."