British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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I believe we generally agree on this point. The real problem is that making an absolute stand on ST can only be damaging if it is the only point that stops the dispute from being resolved. It is a punishment, not a negotiating point.
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Posted by Fargoo
Is it legal to punish someone who is on strike by removing their staff travel priveledges? I'd say not but I guess a guinea pig would need to step up and take it through the courts to find out.
As much as I'm against the strike happening I feel this was a mistake which had it not have happened the strikes may not have gone ahead this time. BA News this week reports 2500 CC member have lost staff travel, I wonder how many actually came in just to keep it. Was it really worth playing that card???
Is it legal to punish someone who is on strike by removing their staff travel priveledges? I'd say not but I guess a guinea pig would need to step up and take it through the courts to find out.
As much as I'm against the strike happening I feel this was a mistake which had it not have happened the strikes may not have gone ahead this time. BA News this week reports 2500 CC member have lost staff travel, I wonder how many actually came in just to keep it. Was it really worth playing that card???
I'm not sure whether it was a card worth playing either, however it was a very clever card. It was the only way to get some crew to come to work, especially in the case of the commuters. I would be very interested in the exact figures of commuters who've lost their staff travel.
The legality question is an interesting one. When I tried to book a Staff Travel ticket today, this is what it states on the homepage:
"As a serving or former employee of British Airways Plc (BA) you are eligible to use non-contractual staff travel benefits subject to the policy as outlined in the Staff Travel Guide 2009 (STG09)."
It is a non contractual benefit.
My understanding is, if it is a non-contractual benefit, then it is neither a punishment nor illegal to remove this perk.
Sadly, this strike has shown the true colours of some of our striking colleagues. Let's hope it comes to an end soon and we can all get on and do what we do best throughout BA.
I'm BA cabin crew who's proud to cross the picket line.
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I am not trying to wind anyone up. BA has and probably will embargo ST to all. But and this is unqualified, BA has never removed ST from a specific group, just because the management team has decided to, as a punishment. I may be wrong, so I will apologise unconditionally if I have made a mistake.
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Light bulbs what justification is there for removing ST from all staff, and by that I assume you mean all non striking cc, pilots, engineers, a scales, GSS and managers. I think that covers everyone.
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BA has never removed ST from a specific group
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Sorry to contradict you, Litebulb, but yes it has. Prior to 2009 all qualifying retirees left with condition of ST for the rest of their life. With the new rules from April 2009 this was taken away i.e. it was reduced to a period equivalent to length of service. In fact retirees were effectively given a new joining date! Sound familiar?
But, it happened to a whole group, not a selected few.
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There will be a very suprising % figure for flights operating tomorrow, can't state what.
However, so far on day 9 of strikes its BA 9 BASSA 0, tomorrow the goal ratio will go up another notch and we haven't used many subs yet. BASSA as a semi pro club should never have take on a premier team.
However, so far on day 9 of strikes its BA 9 BASSA 0, tomorrow the goal ratio will go up another notch and we haven't used many subs yet. BASSA as a semi pro club should never have take on a premier team.
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Unite are looking to ramp up the public exposure a bit: - BrUtish Airways' anti-bully bus heads to Speakers' Corner to denounce cabin crew sackings
..in the centre of London I just hope they also increase the level of dignity a bit also, so far it's been a bit lacking. More neat and tidy men and women looking like people you want to serve you on an aircraft, and thereby perhaps support, and a bit less pants and poor willy jokes should be the order of the day I suggest.
..in the centre of London I just hope they also increase the level of dignity a bit also, so far it's been a bit lacking. More neat and tidy men and women looking like people you want to serve you on an aircraft, and thereby perhaps support, and a bit less pants and poor willy jokes should be the order of the day I suggest.
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staff travel...To give or take away...
There seems to be alot of chatter regarding the staff travel issue.
Why not ballot those with staff travel as to whether the strikers can have their perks returned?
I think the outstanding diciplinery cases must be dealt with case by case. Its the Unite's responsibility to defend their members in the hearings not the media. If they have done nothing wrong then they will be allowed back and be better crew for the experience. You do not appreciate what you have until you realise you might lose it.
Why not ballot those with staff travel as to whether the strikers can have their perks returned?
I think the outstanding diciplinery cases must be dealt with case by case. Its the Unite's responsibility to defend their members in the hearings not the media. If they have done nothing wrong then they will be allowed back and be better crew for the experience. You do not appreciate what you have until you realise you might lose it.
Last edited by Chesh01; 27th May 2010 at 23:29. Reason: additional comment!
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Giza, I was passing through 5 on the way home today and I asked a question of a chap in a high-vis jacket. The answer came in the most broad of Welsh accents I've ever heard.
I asked whether the chap had come from CWL to help out and he said he had. I thanked him, shook the man's hand and was on my way. He seemed genuinely chuffed to have any sort of recognition because, god knows, he's unlikely to get anything official from the company.
I asked whether the chap had come from CWL to help out and he said he had. I thanked him, shook the man's hand and was on my way. He seemed genuinely chuffed to have any sort of recognition because, god knows, he's unlikely to get anything official from the company.
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Sorry to keep insisting on accuracy but....
Tenko/DH.....
you say you have been employed as BA Cabin Crew at LHR for 16 years.
Would it be fair to say that you are therefore 'old contract'? Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but aren't pre-'97 cabin crew paid a significant amount of money more than cabin crew who joined after that date?
If so, and I put my hand up here and admit this isn't my area of expertise, surely when you say you EARN £27,000, you're being ever so slightly economical with the truth, no?
Do you mean that your BASIC PAY is £27,000? If so, surely you actually EARN well over £40,000 (and by that we mean the amount of money you earn in a year before tax, including all allowances, indeed, everything).
Can someone please clarify this for me?
I mean, even our lowest paid LHR cabin crew member must have a BASIC salary of approximately, what, £12,000? Add on the £15,000+ allowances, that makes £27,000.....well above the national average salary, and that's the starter rate on the 'bad' contract.
Surely someone on the 'old contract' who is working full time and has 16 years of annual increments is earning FAR more than £12,000 basic, more like £27,000 basic.
Tenko/DH.....are you still maincrew after 16 years?
Can anyone else confirm what the BASIC pay of a 16 years LHR based full time CC member is?
Otherwise it's all crap right? I mean, can't I claim to only earn £13,000 as a pilot....say what?...you want my variable pay AND my basic pay? And my allowances? Steady on!
Odd that Tenko hasn't replied to any of the questions people have been asking.....maybe he's doing the decent thing and searching out his P60 (only just come through the post), then adding about 10% for the tax-free part of our allowances that don't feature on the P60 and will be back on here tomorrow apologising for accidentally hiding £15,000 (36%) of his salary when asking us to pity how little he earns......
What amuses me is that many people suspect that Tenko is in fact one of Duncan Holley's ingenious alter-egos...this is someone who incredibly 'earned' £42,000 a year for only 20 hours work for British Airways!!! I make that £2,100 an hour...good work if you can get it (although he evidently didn't think so!)
Interesting that many comments have said how the £27,000 figure was well above the national average and that he should be pretty happy with that.....he doesn't seem too happy with £42,000 odd, which is over twice what a fully qualified Nurse/Teacher/Policeman/etc will earn.
What concerns me is that Willie Walsh is promising to protect this pay AND the terms & conditions!
When you think what he could so EASILY do to your contracts, your terms & conditions AND your pay (see Aer Leprechaun) in his current position of utmost supremacy, with such unprecedented support from EVERYONE, don't you think you should bite his hand off?! I would. Thankfully it would appear that more and more CC are starting to realise the nature of the beast.
I just can't help feeling sorry for those few (2500 odd?) CC who are still on strike.....I know they're being deluded, everyone else can see it, and I don;t think they're bad people, but unfortunately they're not leaving WW any other option but to treat them as very naughty boys and girls.
That said I can't help but think that there can only be a small minority of mislead, ill-informed, sheepy guys there, the rest I think we have to now assume are fully-informed militants, hell-bent on BAs destruction.
I think the best option all round would be to agree to go our separate ways.....we carry on supporting BA and rebuilding this shell of an airline towards taking-over-the-world part II and they get 'let go', even if it is seen as 'unfair'....surely that is better than bankrupting the airline? The greater good need to be protected at some stage, no? I think the public are angry at Willie for NOT having sacked anyone yet
you say you have been employed as BA Cabin Crew at LHR for 16 years.
Would it be fair to say that you are therefore 'old contract'? Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but aren't pre-'97 cabin crew paid a significant amount of money more than cabin crew who joined after that date?
If so, and I put my hand up here and admit this isn't my area of expertise, surely when you say you EARN £27,000, you're being ever so slightly economical with the truth, no?
Do you mean that your BASIC PAY is £27,000? If so, surely you actually EARN well over £40,000 (and by that we mean the amount of money you earn in a year before tax, including all allowances, indeed, everything).
Can someone please clarify this for me?
I mean, even our lowest paid LHR cabin crew member must have a BASIC salary of approximately, what, £12,000? Add on the £15,000+ allowances, that makes £27,000.....well above the national average salary, and that's the starter rate on the 'bad' contract.
Surely someone on the 'old contract' who is working full time and has 16 years of annual increments is earning FAR more than £12,000 basic, more like £27,000 basic.
Tenko/DH.....are you still maincrew after 16 years?
Can anyone else confirm what the BASIC pay of a 16 years LHR based full time CC member is?
Otherwise it's all crap right? I mean, can't I claim to only earn £13,000 as a pilot....say what?...you want my variable pay AND my basic pay? And my allowances? Steady on!
Odd that Tenko hasn't replied to any of the questions people have been asking.....maybe he's doing the decent thing and searching out his P60 (only just come through the post), then adding about 10% for the tax-free part of our allowances that don't feature on the P60 and will be back on here tomorrow apologising for accidentally hiding £15,000 (36%) of his salary when asking us to pity how little he earns......
What amuses me is that many people suspect that Tenko is in fact one of Duncan Holley's ingenious alter-egos...this is someone who incredibly 'earned' £42,000 a year for only 20 hours work for British Airways!!! I make that £2,100 an hour...good work if you can get it (although he evidently didn't think so!)
Interesting that many comments have said how the £27,000 figure was well above the national average and that he should be pretty happy with that.....he doesn't seem too happy with £42,000 odd, which is over twice what a fully qualified Nurse/Teacher/Policeman/etc will earn.
What concerns me is that Willie Walsh is promising to protect this pay AND the terms & conditions!
When you think what he could so EASILY do to your contracts, your terms & conditions AND your pay (see Aer Leprechaun) in his current position of utmost supremacy, with such unprecedented support from EVERYONE, don't you think you should bite his hand off?! I would. Thankfully it would appear that more and more CC are starting to realise the nature of the beast.
I just can't help feeling sorry for those few (2500 odd?) CC who are still on strike.....I know they're being deluded, everyone else can see it, and I don;t think they're bad people, but unfortunately they're not leaving WW any other option but to treat them as very naughty boys and girls.
That said I can't help but think that there can only be a small minority of mislead, ill-informed, sheepy guys there, the rest I think we have to now assume are fully-informed militants, hell-bent on BAs destruction.
I think the best option all round would be to agree to go our separate ways.....we carry on supporting BA and rebuilding this shell of an airline towards taking-over-the-world part II and they get 'let go', even if it is seen as 'unfair'....surely that is better than bankrupting the airline? The greater good need to be protected at some stage, no? I think the public are angry at Willie for NOT having sacked anyone yet
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Could they for example take away free parking at the airport for striking workers? I'd say not and it is a similar perk/concession.
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As I understand it the new ballot needs to be unrelated to the original one if it's to extend the 12 weeks protection, so surely, reinstatement of staff travel and IA-related disciplinaries is too closely related?
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There seems to be alot of chatter regarding the staff travel issue.
Why not ballot those with staff travel as to whether the strikers can have their perks returned?
Why not ballot those with staff travel as to whether the strikers can have their perks returned?
Like it or not, we are working for an international publicly-listed company - not a kibbutz.
(Come to that, even a kibbutz can impose sanctions on its members who do not stick to accepted norms of behaviour.)
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Am I right in thinking that for BA to change contracts it has to be for ALL cabin crew?
If so, that will be an incredibly unpopular way of resolving this deadlock, but nonetheless one option that WW legally has at his disposal.
He seemed to confirm the rumours at the WTS forum that he is staring to recruit new CC very soon.....are these in excess of current numbers, or do they allow him to sack all strikers (2500), make the role of Purser redundant and get them to sign up to New fleet contracts, or exercise his previously filed HN1 (HR1?) which is filed to notify of 2000 compulsory redundancies.
I think that either way he needs to wait 3 months before any new recruits join the company.....that said he can START now, and put loads in a holding pool.
I think he's unable to recruit while there's a strike going on, but technically the strike ends on 10th June, and even though there may be another ballot in the pipeline, he's free to recruit I think.
Either way, big changes ahead methinks. I really hope that he doesn't allow the actions of the few to disadvantage the commendable actions of the many that have shown up for work and supported BA.
If bassa keep nipping at his heels he may just turn around and say, 'new contracts all round', and I'm afraid that as long as he gives 90 days notice he can do this with the full support of the law. I really hope that he looks at every other alternative and sticks by his assurance to protect current (working) crew.
If so, that will be an incredibly unpopular way of resolving this deadlock, but nonetheless one option that WW legally has at his disposal.
He seemed to confirm the rumours at the WTS forum that he is staring to recruit new CC very soon.....are these in excess of current numbers, or do they allow him to sack all strikers (2500), make the role of Purser redundant and get them to sign up to New fleet contracts, or exercise his previously filed HN1 (HR1?) which is filed to notify of 2000 compulsory redundancies.
I think that either way he needs to wait 3 months before any new recruits join the company.....that said he can START now, and put loads in a holding pool.
I think he's unable to recruit while there's a strike going on, but technically the strike ends on 10th June, and even though there may be another ballot in the pipeline, he's free to recruit I think.
Either way, big changes ahead methinks. I really hope that he doesn't allow the actions of the few to disadvantage the commendable actions of the many that have shown up for work and supported BA.
If bassa keep nipping at his heels he may just turn around and say, 'new contracts all round', and I'm afraid that as long as he gives 90 days notice he can do this with the full support of the law. I really hope that he looks at every other alternative and sticks by his assurance to protect current (working) crew.
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I'm so upset with all the self important rubbish that has been posted on this site. This is people's livelihoods you are talking about and to be honest none of you care about that, it's all about YOU and your opinion. Please look at the bigger picture. Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be out theer fighting your cause. Let me remind you of the Openskies situation that happened not so long ago. What's to say that the Cirrus rumour is not something you should be worried about?
I have had enough, this is my life you are playing God with and I can't take it anymore. I'm at the end of my rope with all this. I'm not even sure who I can talk to, confide in, or even believe these days. I look at everything that has happened over the last couple of years and I CANNOT SEE A WAY OUT.
I've never felt so low in my life and after giving so much to a company I have loved and been proud to work for, for so long I don't know where to go now.
I'm in a situation where I could loose everything I have worked for, for so long and yes I CAN HEAR YOU ALL SAY, That's my choice, but hey if this was you wouldn't you do the same thing and stand up for what you believe in.
I've give so much to this Company for the last 16 years and to be honest I don't think I'm over paid and I really have to despute the fact that I have under achieve. I'm full time and if you really want to know my earnings well it's just over £27,000. Now please look at yourselves and think how would you live on that?
These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.
This is a serious issure and the crew involved are nothing like the people you are talking about. They have fed and watered you for years.They have sat and shared their company with you and enjoyed your input. They have the same goal as you, which is to see the Company succeed. They are just not willing to do this at their expense.
Please stop all this bashing of your colleagues, they are afterall the eyes and ears of your flight, you need to be able to trust them and this is not helping.
I really believe that all you have to say is just helping to prolong the dispute. Let's sit back and look at the facts and think, What if this was me? What would i do? How would I react? What if the company wins, will they come after me next, after all I am the best paid pilot in the World!!!!!!!!!! Familiar???????
I'm a human being who has done everything to make sure my passengers I have on my flights get off and feel special. I give them everything I have and even though the product is not up to what is was I have managed to make up for that by just being me. I joined this company 16 years ago as a career choice and I really believed that I made a good choice, but now that is not enough. I have my mortgage based on my present earnings, not extravagant, but now that is too much, Where do we stop.
Please look at how you would deal with this...... How would you cope......... What if someone decided that you were overpaid and under achieving? .......... I'm alone in all this an I have no where to go. I can't see a way out........ I can't believe that school yard tactics are ruining my life. I want to do what I do really well, and I'll only give it up when I decide, not you or our management. What would you do if they said that you were to be replaced by cheaper younger staff. How would you feel?
Now saying all that, Look deep inside you, before you reply, I'm not interested in getting into a debate, My future is at stake here and I haven't even committed a crime.
Have some compassion and think about what you are saying because if this was you, I would. Just think about how Mr Walsh's success would affect you. Imagine how you would cope. I know there are no VCC out there who can replace yiou but there are plenty unemployed and well unless you are unique, no one is safe.
We just happen to be the largest group and well they will never stop there, we are just a way forward. A win for Mr Walsh is a way to prove that no one is safe.
I am sorry to put all this in writing, but I have just about had enough and if I'm really honest, I don't want to give up something I'm really good at and I'm really proud of. I want a future and I want to fall in love with my Company again. I want us all to live in harmony again. I don't want to fear a destroyed CRM situation which could end up costing lives.
Please people think about what you have to say and look at the facts. The future of your crew is at stake and if they manange to break us then it is only a matter of time before they visit you.
I have had enough, this is my life you are playing God with and I can't take it anymore. I'm at the end of my rope with all this. I'm not even sure who I can talk to, confide in, or even believe these days. I look at everything that has happened over the last couple of years and I CANNOT SEE A WAY OUT.
I've never felt so low in my life and after giving so much to a company I have loved and been proud to work for, for so long I don't know where to go now.
I'm in a situation where I could loose everything I have worked for, for so long and yes I CAN HEAR YOU ALL SAY, That's my choice, but hey if this was you wouldn't you do the same thing and stand up for what you believe in.
I've give so much to this Company for the last 16 years and to be honest I don't think I'm over paid and I really have to despute the fact that I have under achieve. I'm full time and if you really want to know my earnings well it's just over £27,000. Now please look at yourselves and think how would you live on that?
These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.
This is a serious issure and the crew involved are nothing like the people you are talking about. They have fed and watered you for years.They have sat and shared their company with you and enjoyed your input. They have the same goal as you, which is to see the Company succeed. They are just not willing to do this at their expense.
Please stop all this bashing of your colleagues, they are afterall the eyes and ears of your flight, you need to be able to trust them and this is not helping.
I really believe that all you have to say is just helping to prolong the dispute. Let's sit back and look at the facts and think, What if this was me? What would i do? How would I react? What if the company wins, will they come after me next, after all I am the best paid pilot in the World!!!!!!!!!! Familiar???????
I'm a human being who has done everything to make sure my passengers I have on my flights get off and feel special. I give them everything I have and even though the product is not up to what is was I have managed to make up for that by just being me. I joined this company 16 years ago as a career choice and I really believed that I made a good choice, but now that is not enough. I have my mortgage based on my present earnings, not extravagant, but now that is too much, Where do we stop.
Please look at how you would deal with this...... How would you cope......... What if someone decided that you were overpaid and under achieving? .......... I'm alone in all this an I have no where to go. I can't see a way out........ I can't believe that school yard tactics are ruining my life. I want to do what I do really well, and I'll only give it up when I decide, not you or our management. What would you do if they said that you were to be replaced by cheaper younger staff. How would you feel?
Now saying all that, Look deep inside you, before you reply, I'm not interested in getting into a debate, My future is at stake here and I haven't even committed a crime.
Have some compassion and think about what you are saying because if this was you, I would. Just think about how Mr Walsh's success would affect you. Imagine how you would cope. I know there are no VCC out there who can replace yiou but there are plenty unemployed and well unless you are unique, no one is safe.
We just happen to be the largest group and well they will never stop there, we are just a way forward. A win for Mr Walsh is a way to prove that no one is safe.
I am sorry to put all this in writing, but I have just about had enough and if I'm really honest, I don't want to give up something I'm really good at and I'm really proud of. I want a future and I want to fall in love with my Company again. I want us all to live in harmony again. I don't want to fear a destroyed CRM situation which could end up costing lives.
Please people think about what you have to say and look at the facts. The future of your crew is at stake and if they manange to break us then it is only a matter of time before they visit you.
I won’t get into a debate
a few points
you say you are upset
1. Who has upset you?
2. WHO has told you that YOU will take home LESS money in the future
3.WHO has told you that you will loose everything you have worked for?
4. WHO has said YOU are going to be replaced for cheaper younger staff?
Now IF the answer to those questions is your UNION, then I need you to look at just a few FACTS
IS THIS the same union that gave out the banter "we will get staff travel reinstated don’t worry, it always comes back?"
IS THIS the union that has LOST 3 out of 4 court cases in the past 12 months?
IS THIS the union that nearly drove you down a 12 day strike at Christmas that would have been ILLEGAL!
IS THIS the union that AGREED to YOUR fellow colleagues at Gatwick being on the current contracts they are on
IS THIS the union that takes it members out on the biggest strike EVER to face the airline IN THE SAME YEAR that same airline posts RECORD LOSSES?
IS THIS the union that didn’t allow YOU to vote on a proposal back in march that it later on after the strikes, agreed it would recommend its members accepting if staff travel was reinstated to normal status?
IS THIS the union that actually wants you to take a pay cut?
IS THIS the union that balloted its members on IMPOSSITION, however will SUSPEND strikes if staff travel is reinstated
OR
I ask you this
IS THIS the Company, that has promised NOT to alter your terms and conditions in ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, and has reached its cost savings, on current fleets through non salary restructure?
The question now is really, really, who you trust!
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Originally Posted by Litebulbs
I am not trying to wind anyone up. BA has and probably will embargo ST to all. But and this is unqualified, BA has never removed ST from a specific group, just because the management team has decided to, as a punishment. I may be wrong, so I will apologise unconditionally if I have made a mistake.
Can't remember how long they lost it for, it was more than a year, but if you are the same Litebulbs that posts on Airmech, I suggest you ask the question there as I expect some of those guys may remember.
Last edited by Meal Chucker; 28th May 2010 at 06:03.