British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[BlueUpGood]

On legal matters, he said that BA will not be appealing the overturn of the injuction. However, BA has warned Unite that it is planning for a full hearing on the legality of the strike.

For me, this is the most interesting thing Willy is quoted as saying. I have long wondered why nobody has challenged the lies and spin that BASSA have peddled throughout this long dispute. It seems clear to me that BASSA have obligations to it's members who pay hard earned cash to be professionally represented. It's also clear that BASSA have failed miserably in that responsibility, and that it has not been by accident or misfortune.

On the other hand, BA are facing significant costs as a result of BASSA's actions, and you can bet your bottom dollar BA have an extensive archive of every communication, action, inaction and 'birdsong' of of BASSA and UNITE. Ii's easy to imagine that a robust case of misconduct could be brought either against UNITE, of which BASSA is a constituent, or against the BASSA leadership.

On the matter of costs of the dispute, of course this is hurting BA badly. However, I had a very interesting conversation with a senior flight ops manager over the de-icing disruption last winter, where massed cancellations occurred. There are very significant savings to be made in pre-planning your schedule, and sticking to it. The benefits he highlighted were:

vastly reduced disruption to pax - rebooked or refunded
no hotels or subsistence as pax not arriving at terminals
no disgruntled pax on Sky News 24/7
savings on direct labour costs (CC allowances, disruption payments etc)
huge reduction in costs from fuel and operating charges (ATC etc)
reduction in engineering
reduction in airframe costs ( maintenance, lifed components etc)


Whilst there is a huge impact to the business, we are living in times where the airline is already making a loss. To selectively cancel flights which would lose you money, and merge them with others, thus increasing load factors to profitable levels (on an individual flight basis), BA can significantly mitigate the downside of this dispute.

Edited to add: on the legal challenge.. if BA took BASSA to court, and BASSA's shenanigans are exposed, and found wanting by a court, I think this would go a long way towards achieving a change of the mind-set of those who have only listened to BASSA, and they are likely to be very ticked off. Of course the hard-liners will never listen to reason, but it will give them something to mull over at the job centre.

[BlueUpGood]

Cabin crew employment cost as a percentage of total employment cost:
1998: 20%
2010: 25%
Not sure if that proves anything.

I think it proves every other department has done their bit, and everyone else are is paying for BASSA's 'sod off, we're not listening' approach to industrial relations.

[ns68]

A friend of mine that was there has told me that a Question was asked yet again about "staff travel"
Willie ONCE AGAIN reaffirmed that he WILL NOT be offering any gesture on the staff travel and HE WILL NOT be going back on his word
HOW FANTASITIC- BRAVO! PLEASE WILLIE DO NOT GO BACK ON YOUR WORD< you have thousands that support your decisions
ALSO, there WILL be serious consequences???

Willie Walsh doesn't have to worry about giving staff travel back..it will be back in due course through a court case.I do not think this is the best scenario because it may take a longer time-hence the negotiations about it- but the legality of removing it for people who take industrial action is very much in doubt.
I am also shocked at comments made from fellow crew members who talk as they were heroes for going into work during IA .Good on you for going in..for backing BA the way you do.But you are not doing anything more or anything less than your colleagues have done over the past 30 years. You are just going into work.You are not saving peoples lives.You are just reporting for work as you should-(some people presenting receipts up to 100pounds worth for going in by taxy or by plane..if that what you call backing BA).
If others have decided not to,well,it is up to them after all. Whether or not I will support the strike, I find insulting the comments from most of forum posters who will be happy if staff travel wasn't returned.

[Middy]

tenko's plea

£27,000 pa is twice what most crew at Gatwick earn and they come to work with a cheery smile and a willingness to help with whatever is asked of them to keep the operation going. Cleaning the cabin, reducing turn arounds to get back on schedule etc. If only everyone in IFCE were like Gatwick crew then this airline would be a better place to work.

And by the way CIRRUS is a flight planning programme used for every BA flight showing the routing and fuel requirements not some secret plan by Willie to under mind another part of the airline.

I think tenko's plea is a piece of fiction.

[Beagle9]

Juan, if you are BA cc and are not a union member and are on strike then you are in breach of contract and can be instantly dismissed. Only union members are allowed to strike.(Quote)

Juan is playing with you. He only says he's not BASSA. That'll be Amicus he's a member of then.

[Pornpants1]

I think tenko's plea is a piece of fiction.

I agree, once again ticks all the boxes.........................

[dick whitt]

Shareholder support

During the Q & A session at yesterdays briefing Keith Williams also stated that they had discussed the current tactics with major share holders last Friday and they were fully supportive.

[SnackPack]

I've give so much to this Company for the last 16 years and to be honest I don't think I'm over paid and I really have to despute the fact that I have under achieve. I'm full time and if you really want to know my earnings well it's just over £27,000. Now please look at yourselves and think how would you live on that?

These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.

Hello there, please excuse me as I am an outsider but there are lots of people in a worse situation than you.

I have worked as cabin crew for 8 years. I was made redundent by my previous comany almost 2 years ago. I now work for an airline, however, after having lost my job once, I faced redundancy a few months ago when my airline downsized their operations from 5 aircraft to 3. Several days ago, I was yet again told that I face redundacy again as my airline is going down to just 2 aircraft this winter.

I do understand where you are coming from. I to have a mortagege to pay for. I know many other airline crew who have been made redundent and lost their homes. You should understand that there are many other people such as myself, who would be more than happy to work for £11000 + £2.40 per hour if it meant having a secure position. As far as earning £27k I think I would be quite comfortable on that. It's certainly a bit more than my £13k that I earn at another scheduled airline, despite my experience, and I manage.

As soon as recruitment opens again I will be applying for BA. I don't care how much I earn as long as it is enough to cover my bills, I would be happy with just the bare minimum as long as I have a secure position and not face yet another redundancy threat!

[Beagle9]

For those of you who have read my posts, you will know I am very strongly anti-strike and anti-BASSA, however, work of fiction Tenko's post may or may not have been, I do think that some ordinary and decent cabin crew members, may, if they read this thread, get a bit alarmed at the tone of some of the posts.

They are often quite insulting of CC generally, dismissive of our value to BA and seem to look forward to our imminent downfall.

Now I hate BASSA and the attitude of the more rabid bassamentalists as much as you do, but over my 27 years as CC with BA I've rarely had anything other than very friendly and respectful relations with my Flight Crew colleagues, so some of these posts make uneasy reading for me.

I know it's probably just emotions letting people getting carried away, but can we maybe just ask people do a bit of a review of what they've posted before pressing submit, as there are a lot of decent and intelligent CC on here too.

Thanks. There, I feel better now!

[wiggy]

Beagle

but over my 27 years as CC with BA I've rarely had anything other than very friendly and respectful relations with my Flight Crew colleagues

Well can I add that in my 60+ years with BA I've almost always had friendly and respectful relations with my Cabin crew colleagues, though as in any job you get the 10%.........on both sides of the Flight Deck door..

But as for BASSA

[Wirbelsturm]

I'm so upset with all the self important rubbish that has been posted on this site. This is people's livelihoods you are talking about and to be honest none of you care about that, it's all about YOU and your opinion. Please look at the bigger picture. Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be out theer fighting your cause. Let me remind you of the Openskies situation that happened not so long ago. What's to say that the Cirrus rumour is not something you should be worried about?

So you are allowed your opinion but we, as a group, are not allowed ours?

Please look at the bigger picture. Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone

What have you given up over in the past? What have BASSA negotiated in the past whilst ALL other groups in BA have been streamlining their cost base in line with the economic and business changes? Do you honestly believe that the company can maintain 1980's style contracts in a business environment where landing fees, navigation fees, fuel, airports costs and taxes have risen astronomically while ticket prices have plummeted? Everyone else in BA cut costs and increased productivity to cover their cost bases, BASSA threw the regionals to the wolves for their savings. Hence Gatwick is running a full schedule during your strike and don't give a stuff about BASSA. BASSA reaps what it sows.

You have a Union that is running rouge within Unite. Tony Woodley can't control it but desperately needs to membership fees of its biggest branch after a botched attempt to get Labour back into power. Unite spent a fortune backing MP's only to lose to a coalition. How that must hurt.

BASSA/Unite demand that BA negotiate. However, at Sandown Park, you all cheered and supported a 'no negotiation' stance with a show of hands in a heat of the moment, hot headed ballot. Now you wonder why BA can't be bothered to talk to BASSA?

BA have given assurances on the future of existing crews. They have been stonewalled by BASSA,also by the Secretary Duncan Holley, you know the one, the one who was vindictively and in a bullying fashion, dismissed for consistently failing to turn up to work! How he has fallen on his feet, straight into a full paid job with the Union. These people don't give a stuff about the ordinary Cabin Crew, they want to go out on a high. They are blocking an agreement that will give you stable working conditions in order to get their cronies back. Utter lunacy.

As to guarantees, there are no guarantees in a private industry. Market forces dictate cash flow which dictates change. All any Union can do and any employee is to watch how the market forces change and move and then decide on the most appropriate course of action which best represents the wishes of their membership or peers. This is constant and ongoing and requires meeting each future challenge based on the merits of that challenge when taken in the context of the current environment. This is something that BASSA has totally failed to do by following an abrasive IA course over nothing. Losing public opinion along the way as people in other industries lose their jobs through mismangement or loss of corporate financing. It was ironic to read the line in the press stating that one BASSA member turned up to the pickets in his BMW M3 draped with Unite flags. Poor him, must be really feeling the pinch.

Finally, just to put the spectre os Openskies to bed once and for all, so please forgive me MODS but it needs to be clarified. All BAPLA wanted to do with OS was to have ALL flight crew on the BA master seniority list. That was it. It was agreed that any pilot wishing to go to OS would go under the OS low cost contract. Thus the whole deal was to be cost neutral to BA whilst protecting the LEGAL scope agreement as written into the MOA. That was the difference. Not the throw away IA of BASSA over imposition.

So, before you complain that everyone is being unfair to the strikers please be aware that BASSA declared war on the company as a whole, they stated that they would rather see BA go under than accept change. On that basis I suggest you take umbridge with your Union before your peers. They have seriously misrepresented you in this.

Edited to add:
BA employs, for comparable airlines, some of the cheapest LH pilots in the world. If you wish a comparison have a look at the wages within Lufthansa, Air France/KLM and Iberia to see what happens when exchange rates kick in. I'll help a little, the top going rate for a LH Lufthansa Captain is around 250,000 Euros. Not a bad little earner is it?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Sometimes, a picture can sum up 196 pages of writing.......

Pimms o'clock on the frontline; cheers comrade....


Just to confirm, I'll be in for my trip tomorrow.....

[Satan]

Flight Crew Vacancies? Errr, no.....

Much glee and laughter this morning over on the BASSA forum, 5 pages of "serves them right!" and "HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!" (in other words, the usual insightful and intelligent debate seen on there) and all following on from this:

OMG! Just had a call from a very reliable source that her advertising agency (it has been outsourced from another agency- thought it wouldn't be traced eh?) has received a request to design an advertising campaign and place adverts initially over a two week period during September looking for Temporary Flight Crew at guess what airline??? Sooooo what goes around eh??

Maybe you want to go back to your source and check again. These are the adverts for new fleet, which your union has brought into existence way ahead of plan by its actions.

Nah, it's "Flight Crew!!!" you respond (hello "My Arse!") How often does the media get the distinction wrong? What language do the general public use for those who are crew on aircraft?

Your glee is, sadly 180-degrees out. Dance away, for now, but these are for New Fleet. Mark my words.

Satan

[ns68]

Edited to add:
BA employs, for comparable airlines, some of the cheapest LH pilots in the world. If you wish a comparison have a look at the wages within Lufthansa, Air France/KLM and Iberia to see what happens when exchange rates kick in. I'll help a little, the top going rate for a LH Lufthansa Captain is around 250,000 Euros. Not a bad little earner is it?

Same for CC..ever wondered why they never compare our salaries to that of KLM/AIR FRANCE,ALITALIA,LUFTHANSA and IBeria? That is because they earn as much as us.
Saying that,easyjet CC clear as much as we do in a month- between £1600-£2000..

I do not understand why so many people are happy to give what we have up.
To keep the flag flying? Keeping the flag flying it is not only about the savings expected from IFS.There is a lot more to it. It is about management making the right commercial choices and moves..Let's not go back to the T5 fiasco that lost us so much money and so many passengers..Openskies which was set up and invested in only to be forgotten.. and the list continues..
I could blame the economic downturn for the loss of revenue and number of passenger but the product we are now offering is another reason behind that.
As a Eurofleet cc..our Club product is now next to nothing and when the management said it wouldn't really matter because people would still fly with us and they do not need much on a short flight..Well,they were very wrong!
Club Europe is not worth it anymore and people have slowly realized it.

[demomonkey]

Originally posted by Tenko: These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.

Tenko;

• This dispute IS NOT ABOUT £11k and £2.40ph.
• It has NEVER been about £11k and £2.40ph.
• No formal offer involving £11k and £2.40ph has ever been tabled.
• The current offer is not based around £11k and £2.40ph.
• The current offer would allow you to keep your earnings at the approximate current levels.
• WW has publicly said that he knows people have designed their lifestyles around their income and he doesn't expect them to change it now.

If you accepted BA's offer your flat and lifestyle would be safe! Please, please, please read the offers that are being sent to you via email before it is too late. BASSA is telling you half-truths. Please do your own research. Talk to the PCCC just to see their side of it, they're all serving CC and have just as much to lose as you. If you are genuinely at rock bottom its because that stupid man Holley and his cronies have mis-guided the BASSA community so badly. Please step into the sunshine!

These are my personal opinions and not those of any other individual or organisation

[4468]

With expansion predicted for the end of the year, mostly on 747s coming back from storage, I imagine this is probably an accurate story. As has been said however, it won't be temporary pilots they are looking for!

The Big Bad New Fleet is here, and it's all thanks to BASSA!

The so called 'strike' is looking like more of an irrelevance as every day passes! Even the news channels know there's no story here. Move along now. Move along!
Tenko:

I have my mortgage based on my present earnings,

Very concerned for you (genuinely!) but how does losing half your months wages affect your ability to pay your mortgage?

Can you manage to lose half your pay next month too? and the month after, and the month after that?

Can't you see the writing on the wall? BASSA are costing you more money than BA ever will!!

It is absolutely tragic for you, but you have voted (presumably?) to be led right up the garden path!

[fly12345]

the offer, just in case you have forgotten

Tenko,


Unite has repeatedly moved the goalposts and is not interested in settling the dispute. The union knows our latest offer addresses all the concerns it has raised during 15 months of negotiations and that we have compromised many times in an effort to get a resolution.

Tony Woodley himself has said that our final offer “on many points represents an improvement”.

During these talks, we have:

* offered the partial reversal of crew complements, despite a High Court ruling in our favour
* agreed to future promotions and transfers on current contracts for current crew
* given a written assurance about the allocation of routes and aircraft between fleets
* given assurances to protect the pay, terms and conditions for our current crew
* changed our position on pay to guarantee RPI rises for two years, on top of increments
* agreed to the return of staff travel to crew who went on strike, subject to certain conditions

[Wirbelsturm]

This dispute IS NOT ABOUT £11k and £2.40ph.

Anyway I think you would find that £2.40ph would be below the minimum wage. Careful how you dress it!!!

[demomonkey]

Caption Competition! :)

Entry 1: "Happy Hour at the Last Chance Saloon"
Entry 2: "Like alcohol Industrial Action might feel good at the time but it leaves you with a nasty hangover"
Entry 3: "Having not been paid for weeks striking CC were reduced to drinking their own pee"

Thank you, I'm here all week!

[Wirbelsturm]

'Volunteer Flight Crew try out their new company issued Ray Bans and beer, Iphones to be issued on completion of training!'