British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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what next?
I have only posted on here once or twice, it is normally responded with all sorts of horrible comments towards crew. I am totally disappointed that an agreement has not been reached. I have voted NO twice as I do not support strike action. However I don't think people realise how much harder flights have been to operate since we lost a crew member from each flight. I have not given the same service since not because I am some militant bassa supporter determined not to let it work but because I simply dont have the time or energy for all those little nice touches. I just give the service as laid down by BA. If I work economy and it is tea coffee and a muffin then thats what I deliver, no running back and forth for adhock requests. I will come into work during any Industrial action but I have had enough and am seeking employment else where. I know I will be replaced oh so easily but I think passengers will also start flying where possible with other airlines before too long as things will never be the same again. Ultimately this will come back to bite us all!
Last edited by dantheflyboy; 10th Mar 2010 at 22:51.
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Dan
Dan,give it some time.
Once all this is over, things will change for the better.
I can quite appreciate that not having the time/energy to do those 'nice little touches' that you refer to would affect your job satisfaction - but with time & crew input the routines & product will be refined I'm sure, & hopefully you'll be able to find those spare moments to 'make the difference' (if you'll excuse the yuk-speak).
You're the best kind of Crew of all - the kind that care. Don't throw the towel in just yet....
And edited to add: Jeez Newyorker. The bloke can only do so much with what he has - comments like yours are what gives us all a bad name. And frankly I'm fed up with living with the backlash from your crass rudeness.
Once all this is over, things will change for the better.
I can quite appreciate that not having the time/energy to do those 'nice little touches' that you refer to would affect your job satisfaction - but with time & crew input the routines & product will be refined I'm sure, & hopefully you'll be able to find those spare moments to 'make the difference' (if you'll excuse the yuk-speak).
You're the best kind of Crew of all - the kind that care. Don't throw the towel in just yet....
And edited to add: Jeez Newyorker. The bloke can only do so much with what he has - comments like yours are what gives us all a bad name. And frankly I'm fed up with living with the backlash from your crass rudeness.
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Dan, you sound a bit bewildered or even overcome. I wish you all the best in finding a more suitable job very soon.
However you say
That is all you are required to do.
However you say
I just give the service as laid down by BA.
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At least we now know. Call the strike, lose the fight and get back to work.
I have read the 'proposals' by Unite and they are an affront to common as well as business sense. They may sound good when broadcasted to the workers over a megaphone but to an average financial person they sound absolutely ludicrous. The most clear example of the absolute stupidity of the BASSA negotiators is this:
Better WW breaks UNITE and the pro-strike community over this than over the 'war of the pension fund' that is still coming. I have no more sympathy for the pro-strike BA crew.
I have read the 'proposals' by Unite and they are an affront to common as well as business sense. They may sound good when broadcasted to the workers over a megaphone but to an average financial person they sound absolutely ludicrous. The most clear example of the absolute stupidity of the BASSA negotiators is this:
We have offered a 2.6% pay cut (in the form of a `loan’) in year 1 of a 3 year deal. This creates a saving of £7.1million for BA and is FULLY REPAYABLE – just like the Flight Crew deal.
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I wish Unite stopped with the blaming game
I read in one of the earlier posts that Unite is still going on about the fines and the fuel hedge.
This company is made of human beings! every employee has a code of conduct laid down by the policies and procedures. This doesn't mean that no-one will do something wrong, usually something that ends up in a disciplinary. Can they continue blaming everything on the fines as if someone should have been able to prevent individuals from doing something so stupid as what they did??? We why shouldn't we be able to prevent anything stupid that anybody we know is ever going to do? Because people make decisions and sometimes they do so knowing they are the wrong ones!!!
as far as I am concerned the only thing that the company can do is make those people accountable... which it has done as people have lost their jobs over the fines as well as the T5 opening. Did enough people loose their job as a consequence? clearly not for Unite, well sorry but they can't continue blaming this stuff for the need for change.
Revenue is down! FACT! Costs are were not down as much as revenue! FACT! The poor bloke responsible for fuel hedging (which, by the way has the objective of being revenue neutral at the end of the year, not being a revenue stream for BA) CANNOT PREDICT THE FUTURE???? LET'S SACK HIM/HER! HOW CAN THEY NOT BE ABLE TO KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE HIGHLY VOLATILE PRICE OF PETROL??? SHAME ON THEM!!! no payrise, no bonus, let's make them work harder.... hold on that's happening to everybody in WTS... maybe we should all blame the fuel hedge guy!
And
This company is made of human beings! every employee has a code of conduct laid down by the policies and procedures. This doesn't mean that no-one will do something wrong, usually something that ends up in a disciplinary. Can they continue blaming everything on the fines as if someone should have been able to prevent individuals from doing something so stupid as what they did??? We why shouldn't we be able to prevent anything stupid that anybody we know is ever going to do? Because people make decisions and sometimes they do so knowing they are the wrong ones!!!
as far as I am concerned the only thing that the company can do is make those people accountable... which it has done as people have lost their jobs over the fines as well as the T5 opening. Did enough people loose their job as a consequence? clearly not for Unite, well sorry but they can't continue blaming this stuff for the need for change. Revenue is down! FACT! Costs are were not down as much as revenue! FACT! The poor bloke responsible for fuel hedging (which, by the way has the objective of being revenue neutral at the end of the year, not being a revenue stream for BA) CANNOT PREDICT THE FUTURE???? LET'S SACK HIM/HER! HOW CAN THEY NOT BE ABLE TO KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE HIGHLY VOLATILE PRICE OF PETROL??? SHAME ON THEM!!! no payrise, no bonus, let's make them work harder.... hold on that's happening to everybody in WTS... maybe we should all blame the fuel hedge guy!
And
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Sporran
I doubt there will be a lockout. What legislation would that use?
What is legal, and very likely, is that after the strike dates are announced today, BA will be forced to introduce a LGW Cabin Crew cost base at LHR, using SOSR legislation.
All Cabin Crew will then have 90 days notice of the change in their terms and conditions. Some will stay out on strike. Some will not strike, receive their old pay for three months, before moving onto their new pay and terms and conditions. Others will also not strike, but only "see out" there 90 days, and then leave.
This is sadly going to impact many households, but will, in the long term, ensure a lower cost base for the company, with a much reduced threat of strikes.
The most disappointing thing about this is that if the BASSA heirachy had opened their eyes to the facts, they could have seen this coming, and warned their members. CAA tables have long shown the disparity between high BA Cabin Crew costs and those of the UK competition. At the High Court evidence was given showing how the cost per hour of BA Cabin Crew was around twice that of UK and foereign competitors. Remember, two of the witnesses for BASSA stated that they were studying law. They should have seen this coming, although it didnt stop them screwing up the first ballot.
Such a shame for the BASSA members, they could have been warned, and there Union they could have negotiated. What a squandered opportunity.
I doubt there will be a lockout. What legislation would that use?
What is legal, and very likely, is that after the strike dates are announced today, BA will be forced to introduce a LGW Cabin Crew cost base at LHR, using SOSR legislation.
All Cabin Crew will then have 90 days notice of the change in their terms and conditions. Some will stay out on strike. Some will not strike, receive their old pay for three months, before moving onto their new pay and terms and conditions. Others will also not strike, but only "see out" there 90 days, and then leave.
This is sadly going to impact many households, but will, in the long term, ensure a lower cost base for the company, with a much reduced threat of strikes.
The most disappointing thing about this is that if the BASSA heirachy had opened their eyes to the facts, they could have seen this coming, and warned their members. CAA tables have long shown the disparity between high BA Cabin Crew costs and those of the UK competition. At the High Court evidence was given showing how the cost per hour of BA Cabin Crew was around twice that of UK and foereign competitors. Remember, two of the witnesses for BASSA stated that they were studying law. They should have seen this coming, although it didnt stop them screwing up the first ballot.
Such a shame for the BASSA members, they could have been warned, and there Union they could have negotiated. What a squandered opportunity.
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I am very sad that both sides could not reach an agreement, maybe? during the 7 days notice period both sides will step back? I worked for BA for over 30yrs and I know they have a very intransigent management. This unfortunately breeds an equally intransigent workforce. One thing I believe that will happen if a strike is called is that absolute chaos will follow, we only have to look at the airline during bad w/x etc. Despite the volunteer workforce, they have other jobs to do and they will not instinctively know how to operate.This will slow things down, and lead to endless problems and crews running out of hours etc.
Also tremendous bitterness between crews will follow, which must impact on the pax. I think all sides wish to save money, & one way I might suggest is to try to cut down the number of overseas night stops, Easyjet & Ryanair manage their entire operation without them. Maybe BA shorthaul should do the same.?
Also tremendous bitterness between crews will follow, which must impact on the pax. I think all sides wish to save money, & one way I might suggest is to try to cut down the number of overseas night stops, Easyjet & Ryanair manage their entire operation without them. Maybe BA shorthaul should do the same.?
Walnut, you state:
"Despite the volunteer workforce, they have other jobs to do and they will not instinctively know how to operate.This will slow things down, and lead to endless problems and crews running out of hours etc."
I suspect that the volunteers will be released from their day jobs for the duration of any IA and not rushing to man aircraft between shifts. As for them going out of hours, could I suggest that since their working hours will be limited by "Scheme" rather than the Industrial Agreement with BASSA, going out of hours shouldn't be a major problem
"Despite the volunteer workforce, they have other jobs to do and they will not instinctively know how to operate.This will slow things down, and lead to endless problems and crews running out of hours etc."
I suspect that the volunteers will be released from their day jobs for the duration of any IA and not rushing to man aircraft between shifts. As for them going out of hours, could I suggest that since their working hours will be limited by "Scheme" rather than the Industrial Agreement with BASSA, going out of hours shouldn't be a major problem
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Walnut, the problem with this forum is that if you raise your head above the parapet you are likely to get it shot off, unless you post coherently, and from a position of reasonable erudition.
Now then, the BA short-haul model requires 1st wave departures from numerous European cities in order to connect with onward long-haul fights. Easy and O'Learyair's model does not. That said, Easy have bases in places like Geneva, Milan etc and so 'effectively' have 1st wave departures, like BA, from these places. BA does not have any European bases. Plus, BA has so many aircraft that it has to park them somewhere overnight - including Warsaw. Yeah baby.
nurj
This post will last at best, 15 minutes IMO, as it's off topic.
Now then, the BA short-haul model requires 1st wave departures from numerous European cities in order to connect with onward long-haul fights. Easy and O'Learyair's model does not. That said, Easy have bases in places like Geneva, Milan etc and so 'effectively' have 1st wave departures, like BA, from these places. BA does not have any European bases. Plus, BA has so many aircraft that it has to park them somewhere overnight - including Warsaw. Yeah baby.
nurj
This post will last at best, 15 minutes IMO, as it's off topic.
Last edited by nurjio; 11th Mar 2010 at 08:11. Reason: Realisation, am off thread.
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unfair
Andyismyname
``What is legal, and very likely, is that after the strike dates are announced today, BA will be forced to introduce a LGW Cabin Crew cost base at LHR, using SOSR legislation.
All Cabin Crew will then have 90 days notice of the change in their terms and conditions. Some will stay out on strike. Some will not strike, receive their old pay for three months, before moving onto their new pay and terms and conditions. Others will also not strike, but only "see out" there 90 days, and then leave.``
What disturbs me about this is that non BASSA members and people who voted NO will be penalised too which is clearly unfair.
How can they be held responsible for BASSA`s intransigence?
What i think and hope will happen is that BA will say to all current crew ``accept what we proposed or go on strike``... a clear choice. They have to keep onside the good workers they have . They might need to tweak their offer a bit then they can say again ``we have listened to your concerns`` and retain some semblance of being a caring employer.
Their plans for `new fleet` remain in place as before on the same terms and conditions.
As I have said before if there was a viable promotion/transfer system for legacy crew to `new fleet` without massive financial penalties for wanting to better oneself and progress most of the opposition to BA`s proposals would be removed .
There must be some goodwill/loyalty retained!
``What is legal, and very likely, is that after the strike dates are announced today, BA will be forced to introduce a LGW Cabin Crew cost base at LHR, using SOSR legislation.
All Cabin Crew will then have 90 days notice of the change in their terms and conditions. Some will stay out on strike. Some will not strike, receive their old pay for three months, before moving onto their new pay and terms and conditions. Others will also not strike, but only "see out" there 90 days, and then leave.``
What disturbs me about this is that non BASSA members and people who voted NO will be penalised too which is clearly unfair.
How can they be held responsible for BASSA`s intransigence?
What i think and hope will happen is that BA will say to all current crew ``accept what we proposed or go on strike``... a clear choice. They have to keep onside the good workers they have . They might need to tweak their offer a bit then they can say again ``we have listened to your concerns`` and retain some semblance of being a caring employer.
Their plans for `new fleet` remain in place as before on the same terms and conditions.
As I have said before if there was a viable promotion/transfer system for legacy crew to `new fleet` without massive financial penalties for wanting to better oneself and progress most of the opposition to BA`s proposals would be removed .
There must be some goodwill/loyalty retained!
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Wascrew
But under your scenario, if only 1000 people go on strike, and 9000 don't, the 9000 will stay on their current terms and conditions.
That will not sufficiently alter the cost base, and it will not remove the staff who are quite happy to vote to go on strike.
BA needs permanent change, and the introduction of a LGW cost base at LHR will achieve this. Remember, as nice as the current crew are, they cost twice as much as our competitors.
But under your scenario, if only 1000 people go on strike, and 9000 don't, the 9000 will stay on their current terms and conditions.
That will not sufficiently alter the cost base, and it will not remove the staff who are quite happy to vote to go on strike.
BA needs permanent change, and the introduction of a LGW cost base at LHR will achieve this. Remember, as nice as the current crew are, they cost twice as much as our competitors.
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Silver lining: my Easter staff travel trip is a-looking great, thanks to lack of revenue passengers
Cloud: short term its going to be a horrible year for profits and morale
Silver lining: at last management can get back to running the airline again. IMHO Marshall should have grasped this nettle after Gulf War 1, when flights were empty anyway and a prolonged strike would have had zero impact
Cloud: save our pensions!
Silver lining:seriously, I have been impressed by the commitment, intelligence and knowledge of many (but not all!) of the posters on this thread. There are some really smart and engaged CC out there. I hope they are the ones who persevere and are still with us in a year's time.
any more, anyone?
Manuel
Cloud: short term its going to be a horrible year for profits and morale
Silver lining: at last management can get back to running the airline again. IMHO Marshall should have grasped this nettle after Gulf War 1, when flights were empty anyway and a prolonged strike would have had zero impact
Cloud: save our pensions!
Silver lining:seriously, I have been impressed by the commitment, intelligence and knowledge of many (but not all!) of the posters on this thread. There are some really smart and engaged CC out there. I hope they are the ones who persevere and are still with us in a year's time.
any more, anyone?
Manuel
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A lot of you have probably already seen it, but in case you haven't, they've foolishly let someone loose on the keyboard again over at www.uniteba.com and have come-up with yet more confused ramblings in an attempt to justify their current uncomfortable position.
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE 2
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE 2
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all
Andy
The BA proposals were for efficiencies for current crew and removing crew members on flights and then the FUTURE employment of crew to a new fleet.
That scenario hasnt changed as far as I know.
It is not possible to recruit 12000 crew just like that. No many if any legacy crew will accept the new contracts.So how do you run an airline with no crew? It may be fine to run a part schedule with volunteers etc for a short time to break a strike. But also very costly!
The trick for BA is to achieve cuts and be seen as a caring employer and retain the goodwill of the majority of good crew out there as well of course as breaking BASSA.
The BA proposals were for efficiencies for current crew and removing crew members on flights and then the FUTURE employment of crew to a new fleet.
That scenario hasnt changed as far as I know.
It is not possible to recruit 12000 crew just like that. No many if any legacy crew will accept the new contracts.So how do you run an airline with no crew? It may be fine to run a part schedule with volunteers etc for a short time to break a strike. But also very costly!
The trick for BA is to achieve cuts and be seen as a caring employer and retain the goodwill of the majority of good crew out there as well of course as breaking BASSA.
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Why do they have to demonise Mr Walsh's eyes. That they choose to do so is peurile and neatly reflects their ignorance.
A thorough read of the UNITE proposal, as published, reveals a level of business nous last seen in Chippy Minton's workshop as he tried to flog Windy Miller his dodgy pick-up truck.
A thorough read of the UNITE proposal, as published, reveals a level of business nous last seen in Chippy Minton's workshop as he tried to flog Windy Miller his dodgy pick-up truck.
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Wascrew
The cost of BA crew is £60 per hour. Other carriers have crew at half the costs.
13000 crew are required presently because of a large number of part-timers, and some pretty restrictive working practices, in both long and short-haul. Strip out the innefficiencies, and you need many fewer people.
Do you have a method to reduce BA's cost base, and end the continuing strike threats year after year? I can't see any other way.
The cost of BA crew is £60 per hour. Other carriers have crew at half the costs.
13000 crew are required presently because of a large number of part-timers, and some pretty restrictive working practices, in both long and short-haul. Strip out the innefficiencies, and you need many fewer people.
Do you have a method to reduce BA's cost base, and end the continuing strike threats year after year? I can't see any other way.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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A lot of you have probably already seen it, but in case you haven't, they've foolishly let someone loose on the keyboard again over at . WEBSITE FRONT PAGE and have come-up with yet more confused ramblings in an attempt to justify their current uncomfortable position.
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE 2
. COST SAVING TALKS PAGE 2
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Not many if any legacy crew will accept the new contracts .
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BA could easily save millions if they SOSR'd current crew, reemployed them ON THE SAME SALARY and just got rid if the restrictive practices and BASSA interference in the day to day operation.
Further recruitment onto Nu-Fleet would save further millions. I think most crew faced with losing their jobs or taking a job for the same money just working for BA rather than for BA as interpreted by BASSA would opt for the money. Even if in the long term they go elsewhere today they have to pay the mortgage. As a brief glance in any newspaper will tell you, times are tough, the employment market is not overflowing with well paid jobs.
BASSA picked the wrong dispute at the wrong time and, like the NUM before them will drift off into obscurity.
Further recruitment onto Nu-Fleet would save further millions. I think most crew faced with losing their jobs or taking a job for the same money just working for BA rather than for BA as interpreted by BASSA would opt for the money. Even if in the long term they go elsewhere today they have to pay the mortgage. As a brief glance in any newspaper will tell you, times are tough, the employment market is not overflowing with well paid jobs.
BASSA picked the wrong dispute at the wrong time and, like the NUM before them will drift off into obscurity.