British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tomkins wrote:
I think what BF is saying is that the cost of significantly returning the crew complements to pre-November 2009 levels would amount to the figures he gave.
however his figures are a little squiff.An equivalent % pay cut for lgw crew on a basic of £11000 is no where near £1000 pa
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: dublin
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I were BA CC I would be beating the door down to my manager's office letting them know I was not part of any IA, as I would not like to end up like every Aer Lingus CC today, on the equivalent of New Fleet with minimum statutory redundancy, thats if they have a job at all in 30 days.
I for one am very pleased that the company have not given in to the 'demands' of bassa. I am pretty sure that BA know more about the wishes of the cabin crew than bassa, well the 'normal' rank and file cabin crew.
This whole mess is being shown for what it is - a power struggle between your selfish, arrogant and ignorant senior reps and the company.
When will all the decent cabin crew see your bassa reps for the two-faced bunch they are!!
This whole mess is being shown for what it is - a power struggle between your selfish, arrogant and ignorant senior reps and the company.
When will all the decent cabin crew see your bassa reps for the two-faced bunch they are!!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: England
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sporran
If there is a strike it will finally allow people to demonstrate how they feel about the company's offer.
I think a large number will come to work and ignore their unions call.
NB. I don't have a problem with the crewing level changes, others I have spoken with have echoed my feelings.
Especially as it helps the company out and protects our pay and conditions.
My views not my employer or any other party.
I think a large number will come to work and ignore their unions call.
NB. I don't have a problem with the crewing level changes, others I have spoken with have echoed my feelings.
Especially as it helps the company out and protects our pay and conditions.
My views not my employer or any other party.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not surprised; however, I am surprised that management seem to have taken the role of employee representation to heart.
The BASSA proposal is the biggest negotiation faux-pas I have ever seen.
The BASSA proposal is the biggest negotiation faux-pas I have ever seen.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: brighton
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
a move
A couple of questions as it looks like going to IA
How do BA keep the crew on their side?
How do BA ensure the threat of future IA from cabin crew is removed?
My thoughts are that BA takes some of the palatable/reasonable sections of the BASSA offer and re-tweek their own offer,dependant on what BA see as the clincher. To me one of the main stumbling blocks ref `new fleet` is the lack of promotion opportunities for LHR legacy crew and lack of transfer opportunities for LGW based crew.
So as and when BASSA announce strike dates BA must have their alternative fully in place the choice for crew thereby being.
Stay with BASSA and suffer the consequensces of strike action , (recognition of BASSA to act on behalf of cabin crew removed if that is possible,) or stay with us (BA) and accept the new deal on offer.
How do BA keep the crew on their side?
How do BA ensure the threat of future IA from cabin crew is removed?
My thoughts are that BA takes some of the palatable/reasonable sections of the BASSA offer and re-tweek their own offer,dependant on what BA see as the clincher. To me one of the main stumbling blocks ref `new fleet` is the lack of promotion opportunities for LHR legacy crew and lack of transfer opportunities for LGW based crew.
So as and when BASSA announce strike dates BA must have their alternative fully in place the choice for crew thereby being.
Stay with BASSA and suffer the consequensces of strike action , (recognition of BASSA to act on behalf of cabin crew removed if that is possible,) or stay with us (BA) and accept the new deal on offer.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: LHR
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The BASSA "leadership" should hang their heads in SHAME..... If only they had spent the same ammount of time working on a deal to save the oncoming oblivion as they did on their little deal to shaft everyone but their good selves then BA would not be now asking BASSA to "bring it on".
What a bunch of muppetts
What a bunch of muppetts
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The BASSA proposal is the biggest negotiation faux-pas I have ever seen.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: England
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest from the BBC
BBC News - BA strike talks end without deal
Dosen't add much. In fact I don't know why I bothered posting it
BBC News - BA strike talks end without deal
Dosen't add much. In fact I don't know why I bothered posting it
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
binsleepen:
Thank you for the post. I found this comment interesting.
Is BASSA communicating to their members regarding the status? What sort of response are they receiving?
Questions, questions
Thank you for the post. I found this comment interesting.
The TUC, which has been hosting the discussions, said that no deal had been reached, and no further talks were scheduled.
Questions, questions
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,812
Received 137 Likes
on
64 Posts
Do I detect some assymetry on this thread now? I fully realise that the denizens of PPRuNe do not represent the totality of BA CC. Yet I am seeing less enthusiasm for the IA so happily proclaimed by the thousands at Kempton Park. With the notable exception of Watersidewonker, who may indeed be a PPE student at some Northern Polytechnic, there seems to be a very muted response from the pro-strike community in recent days.
Has the reality of what BASSA has done finally impinged on those trying to earn a living in what is, in fairness, not the most glamorous lifestyle in the world? Has hard economics finally sunk in? Keep your job, and your existing T&Cs: no problem. Those who follow you into the cabin will have a lesser set of T&C, but that's their problem.
When it comes to the point, the strike is almost about people who haven't even been employed by BA yet.
Apart, apparently, from the 'favoured few' at the top of the tree, who may be required to do a little more work for a change.
Has the reality of what BASSA has done finally impinged on those trying to earn a living in what is, in fairness, not the most glamorous lifestyle in the world? Has hard economics finally sunk in? Keep your job, and your existing T&Cs: no problem. Those who follow you into the cabin will have a lesser set of T&C, but that's their problem.
When it comes to the point, the strike is almost about people who haven't even been employed by BA yet.
Apart, apparently, from the 'favoured few' at the top of the tree, who may be required to do a little more work for a change.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From BASSA/Unite
Where do these clowns get their propaganda from, and where are the permanent savings required?
1. The pilots deal does not have any guaranteed payback and the cuts agreed and implemented are permanent. Yes, there may be some clawback, but that is subject to company profitability and not 'fully repayable'.
2. As above, all of their offer is 'fully repayable'. Have they not yet grasped the concept of permanency?
They really do beggar belief. When it comes to BASSA I am a cynic, but did actually credit them with some sense of realisation of the end game and last ditch opportunities, but they have seemingly strolled unfalteringly off the precipice.
Today's ESSMail From Bill Francis
Bill’s latest ESS should be further evidence of the underhanded style of BA’s propaganda throughout these negotiations. The half-truths, and on many occasions – total lies about our proposals are spilling out thick and fast.
To be clear, Bill has described our proposal as a “substantial pay cut” and has quoted some wildly exaggerated figures in order to undermine it. Unites proposal has been made available to you today in full on our website. Please take time to read it very carefully. The message Bill has sent is irresponsible and inflammatory – to undermine the fair and reasonable proposal we have made – and that BA have today formally rejected at 17:29hrs.
We have offered a 2.6% pay cut (in the form of a `loan’) in year 1 of a 3 year deal. This creates a saving of £7.1million for BA and is FULLY REPAYABLE – just like the Flight Crew deal.
To illustrate the point, please see the realistic examples below:
How does a fully repayable 2.6% pay-cut affect you?
CSD Heathrow – Top Salary £43k – Full time
Average meal allowances £1000 per month
2.6% pay cut = £80 pcm after Tax & N.I. for 1 year – repayable in full the following year – plus cash bonus in year 3.
Heathrow Main Crew - £16,000 Full Time
Average Meal Allowances £1000 per month
2.6% pay cut = £36 pcm after Tax 7 N.I. for 1 year – repayable in full the following year – plus cash bonus in year 3.
Gatwick main crew £11,000 p.a. Full Time
Average allowances – hourly rate £400 pcm
2.6% pay cut = £21 pcm after Tax 7 N.I. for 1 year – repayable in full the following year – plus cash bonus in year 3.
Bill’s latest ESS should be further evidence of the underhanded style of BA’s propaganda throughout these negotiations. The half-truths, and on many occasions – total lies about our proposals are spilling out thick and fast.
To be clear, Bill has described our proposal as a “substantial pay cut” and has quoted some wildly exaggerated figures in order to undermine it. Unites proposal has been made available to you today in full on our website. Please take time to read it very carefully. The message Bill has sent is irresponsible and inflammatory – to undermine the fair and reasonable proposal we have made – and that BA have today formally rejected at 17:29hrs.
We have offered a 2.6% pay cut (in the form of a `loan’) in year 1 of a 3 year deal. This creates a saving of £7.1million for BA and is FULLY REPAYABLE – just like the Flight Crew deal.
To illustrate the point, please see the realistic examples below:
How does a fully repayable 2.6% pay-cut affect you?
CSD Heathrow – Top Salary £43k – Full time
Average meal allowances £1000 per month
2.6% pay cut = £80 pcm after Tax & N.I. for 1 year – repayable in full the following year – plus cash bonus in year 3.
Heathrow Main Crew - £16,000 Full Time
Average Meal Allowances £1000 per month
2.6% pay cut = £36 pcm after Tax 7 N.I. for 1 year – repayable in full the following year – plus cash bonus in year 3.
Gatwick main crew £11,000 p.a. Full Time
Average allowances – hourly rate £400 pcm
2.6% pay cut = £21 pcm after Tax 7 N.I. for 1 year – repayable in full the following year – plus cash bonus in year 3.
1. The pilots deal does not have any guaranteed payback and the cuts agreed and implemented are permanent. Yes, there may be some clawback, but that is subject to company profitability and not 'fully repayable'.
2. As above, all of their offer is 'fully repayable'. Have they not yet grasped the concept of permanency?
They really do beggar belief. When it comes to BASSA I am a cynic, but did actually credit them with some sense of realisation of the end game and last ditch opportunities, but they have seemingly strolled unfalteringly off the precipice.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, BASSA/Unite is again admitting that they could not provide the savings figures required by BA and had to represent "loans" as savings.
No serious business is going to confuse the benefit of savings with the future obligation of a "loan".
BASSA simply could not deliver.
No serious business is going to confuse the benefit of savings with the future obligation of a "loan".
BASSA simply could not deliver.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,812
Received 137 Likes
on
64 Posts
CSD Heathrow – Top Salary £43k – Full time
Average meal allowances £1000 per month
Average meal allowances £1000 per month
LHR CSD = £55,000 per annum.
LHR Main Crew = £28,000 per annum.
Any other allowances that should be mentioned?
I only ask for clarity in this tangled debate.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: U.K.
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The latest message from Unite.
This guy can't even write understandable English. BRANCH SEC.!
The crew have no hope of effective representation!
From Duncan Holley, Branch Sec;
I am writing this from Congress House 15 minutes after BA formally rejected what was I think you will agree a very fair offer from Unite. Having been tasked with finding 60m to ensure the imposition of crew members would be lifted and safeguards could be in put in place with regard to New Fleet we did our very best.
Part of the problem was that BA would not credit us with any savings when introducing New Fleet, in fact they tried to claim that it would cost them money with starting it up!!
So, we were 17m short and took the big step of offering a 2.6% pay cut on basic to narrow that gap with the safety clause of getting that money back by 2011 in a future pay deal. We knew that would not be popular but we also knew an offer like this had to be made to at least make a genuine attempt to solve the problem.
Bill Francis has since come out in an ESS and made some outrageous claims at how much crew would lose. Check his figures, they simply do not add up. (Actually if they did add up and crew were giving up so much, it does beg the question why did BA reject it).
So we have failed, I am truly sorry, but let me say, over the last 9 weeks, the work to find a solution has been painstaking. BASSA have moved far, maybe even too far in an effort to find a way out of this dispute. Over this period reps have been disciplined and not paid through much of the talks and over 30 good members have been suspended for ridiculous reasons. BA have not made 1 concilatory gesture throughout. WW has been confrontational to the extreme and is now prepared to face a lengthy dispute for the sake of 10 million pounds which he will recoup within a few months.
That is sad, very sad.
The deadline has now passed. There is no further extension. The UNITE leadership have agreed to a press conference tomorrow at lunch-time.
My final message to all those who are nervous of taking action is that every single avenue has been explored. There are 2 choices now. Give in and you will regret it forever. Staff travel is important but it won't be worth anything if you are stuck in a job you hate on vastly inferior terms and conditions. Going on strike is still a human right and unfortunately the only way Willie Walsh can be brought to his sentences.
I know there are many frightened crew out there - you are not alone. Crew are literally frightened of saying "boo to a goose" but I am still here and I will continue to tell the truth on this forum using my name so you know who is speaking. Supporting us over the next few weeks is vital. Please be strong. Please be brave. Regards Duncan
This guy can't even write understandable English. BRANCH SEC.!
The crew have no hope of effective representation!
From Duncan Holley, Branch Sec;
I am writing this from Congress House 15 minutes after BA formally rejected what was I think you will agree a very fair offer from Unite. Having been tasked with finding 60m to ensure the imposition of crew members would be lifted and safeguards could be in put in place with regard to New Fleet we did our very best.
Part of the problem was that BA would not credit us with any savings when introducing New Fleet, in fact they tried to claim that it would cost them money with starting it up!!
So, we were 17m short and took the big step of offering a 2.6% pay cut on basic to narrow that gap with the safety clause of getting that money back by 2011 in a future pay deal. We knew that would not be popular but we also knew an offer like this had to be made to at least make a genuine attempt to solve the problem.
Bill Francis has since come out in an ESS and made some outrageous claims at how much crew would lose. Check his figures, they simply do not add up. (Actually if they did add up and crew were giving up so much, it does beg the question why did BA reject it).
So we have failed, I am truly sorry, but let me say, over the last 9 weeks, the work to find a solution has been painstaking. BASSA have moved far, maybe even too far in an effort to find a way out of this dispute. Over this period reps have been disciplined and not paid through much of the talks and over 30 good members have been suspended for ridiculous reasons. BA have not made 1 concilatory gesture throughout. WW has been confrontational to the extreme and is now prepared to face a lengthy dispute for the sake of 10 million pounds which he will recoup within a few months.
That is sad, very sad.
The deadline has now passed. There is no further extension. The UNITE leadership have agreed to a press conference tomorrow at lunch-time.
My final message to all those who are nervous of taking action is that every single avenue has been explored. There are 2 choices now. Give in and you will regret it forever. Staff travel is important but it won't be worth anything if you are stuck in a job you hate on vastly inferior terms and conditions. Going on strike is still a human right and unfortunately the only way Willie Walsh can be brought to his sentences.
I know there are many frightened crew out there - you are not alone. Crew are literally frightened of saying "boo to a goose" but I am still here and I will continue to tell the truth on this forum using my name so you know who is speaking. Supporting us over the next few weeks is vital. Please be strong. Please be brave. Regards Duncan
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woking
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too right, that is MEAL allowances. Full time crew both long and shorthaul can get £1500-£2000 ish per month variable.
Interesting how one minute they claim the salaries in the papers are all made up, then they go and publish them themselves!
Muppets.
Interesting how one minute they claim the salaries in the papers are all made up, then they go and publish them themselves!
Muppets.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: england
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
can i get this straight cos it seems that the lgw main crew currently the lowest paid were expected to accept being £21 worse off thanks to their union negotiators ? i wouldnt be happy with that
