British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[Litebulbs]

It will be about a point of law. The law is not a fluid thing in my opinion. We will see if that opinion holds any water!

Thanks for the debate tonight, especially the excellent two pronged approach from Snas and Midman. Good Night.

[Desertia]

Get over it. UNITE will win next month and BA will have to get the crewing levels back. Payback time.

MissM,

If you can tell me now that you have voted YES, and you will be out on strike from Day 1 and will give up your staff travel permanently (and answer honestly), then I won't point out that if BA are ORDERED to recruit staff back to previous levels, then BA will be able to do it on their own terms.

After all, if they advertise CC jobs at market rate +10% they will have no trouble filling positions from all of the unemployed FlyGlobeSpan, BMI, etc., crew who will happily work for that kind of salary.

As has been pointed out on this forum, it doesn't really matter if BA win or lose the BASSA-instigated court action. All of BASSA's cards are on the table. BA have several choices by which to achieve their aims.

But as you have yet to acknowledge that your union have lied to you and the public, I don't expect you to acknowledge that they are bereft of a plan B right now.

So come on - given that your union leaders are a proven bunch of liars, will you go on strike when they order you to, or are you just blustering like they are?

[vanHorck]

SLF here

I am constantly reminded of the Air Traffic Controllers strike in the USA in the early eighties.

20. The Air Traffic Controllers' Strike

There are obviously major differences such as the fact that these were government employees but one thing stands out:

No company or organization can allow itself to be held at ransom in such a destructive long term way.

Respect for the fact that both sides are allowed to exchange views here.

[fincastle84]

Jpax

On a recent flight the youngish male CSD obviously put every obstacle in his way to ensure the service was the worst I have experienced. This rubs off on the other cabin staff in J who were miserable and did not smile once. No hot towels or second rolls offered. These are the people who should be replaced

I hope you have filed or will email an unsatisfactory crew report.

On our recent LHR-CPT-LHR we received excellent service. I discussed this with the respective CSDs & was invited to forward to BA my comments, including names & employee registration numbers. One even took the trouble to give me a form to complete.

[La Pouquelaye]

Litebulbs

I hope any court would not take any external influences into account. It will be decided whether BA are in breach of a contractual term, as it was in November.

Just which "external influences" would they be?

[Dawdler]

Quote:
Get over it. UNITE will win next month and BA will have to get the crewing levels back. Payback time.

MissM,

If you can tell me now that you have voted YES, and you will be out on strike from Day 1 and will give up your staff travel permanently (and answer honestly), then I won't point out that if BA are ORDERED to recruit staff back to previous levels, then BA will be able to do it on their own terms.

After all, if they advertise CC jobs at market rate +10% they will have no trouble filling positions from all of the unemployed FlyGlobeSpan, BMI, etc., crew who will happily work for that kind of salary.

As has been pointed out on this forum, it doesn't really matter if BA win or lose the BASSA-instigated court action. All of BASSA's cards are on the table. BA have several choices by which to achieve their aims.

But as you have yet to acknowledge that your union have lied to you and the public, I don't expect you to acknowledge that they are bereft of a plan B right now.

So come on - given that your union leaders are a proven bunch of liars, will you go on strike when they order you to, or are you just blustering like they are?

Desertia,
You forget that in an earlier post Miss M said she hoped not to be involved in the actual strike by dint of her days off and part time basis.

Miss M. If your erudite post comes to pass, how long do you think the "victory" will last? A whole 90 days perhaps?

[strikemaster82]

If you have a complaint such as the 'obstructive' CSD as mentioned above, you can go to this link and it will be followed up.

On-board feedback forms can be binned if they don't read as the crew would like...

[La Pouquelaye]

Litebulbs (again!)

If Mr Walsh can achieve a 1000 relative headcount reduction within IFCE, but with the remainder protected for the future, would that not be seen as a win?

Now you are clutching at straws. A "win" for whom: BA management - or BASSA intransigence?

No one is going to "win" this dispute, but a hell of a lot of flight attendants, cabin crew (call them whatever you like) are about to get hurt. Many will find themselves unemployed very soon after going out on strike.

You will not see your union reps or your union leader Miz Liz Malone out on strike. They will have made their own contingency plans to assure their economic futures.

No, it is the rank and file cabin crew members, perhaps having to care for terminally ill parents at home, who - blinded by BASSA's propaganda and rhetoric - who will be faced bang-on with no job, no money, no future and no way of caring for their otherwise helpless nearest and dearest.

It gives me no pleasure whatsoever to write the above: it's the situation as I see it.

Think on, ladies and gentlemen, I implore you.



[Posted by a rank and file passenger who does not wish to see wholesale misery]

[Wobbler]

Quote:
Get over it. UNITE will win next month and BA will have to get the crewing levels back. Payback time.

Miss M - Not quite sure how you figure that one out. BA would have to recruit new cabin crew - and it would be straight onto New Fleet........but then they have to come back looking for the savings some other way - and I suspect any other way in making the savings you'll find an awful lot more painful than working one down! Payback time maybe - but not for cabin crew!

[m4rx]

Guys,

I feel very saddened when i read this thread. Do the pilots among us want to destroy BASSA or the cabin crew?

Despite what has been released to the press between 60 and 70% of BA cabin crew are on a post '97 contract and earn around £25k per year in total (This is a FACT - try talking to your crew and listening to them), do our pilots believe that to be too much? and if so why?

Are you not happy with your own renumeration package from BA?

You see, love or hate BASSA ( i have my own very strong feelings on this one) it is true that the company figures just don't add up. In order for the savings wanted by Willy and the team to be made - there HAS to be a hidden agenda. And it definately won't include share options when the company returns to profitability in a few years time (at who's expense though?)

I have given 20 years of my life to BA, i love my job, i love my company and i have respect for ALL of my colleagues and am open to their views but not to the open hatred that is in these threads. When THEY (our pilots) voted for strike only two years ago, i didn't berate them, it was THEIR CHOICE, for THEIR AGREEMENTS and THEIR VOTE. They must have had their reasons for the decision they made and i respected them for that.

Even after 20 years my salary is nothing like the lies printed in the Hate Mail i really wish it was though. But should my salary be cut by a third after 20 years because it is alleged that a starter at virgin earns less. Does a new employee in every company not earn less and build their salary up over years of service. I now have a family to support too!!

Yes we are not pilots! we don't have your training! But we do respect you and don't begrudge you your agreements, it would just be nice for once to have that returned. We are not all 'trolley dolleys' and some of us are highly trained with other skills, we choose to fly because we love the work and have something to offer our customers and our company.

Please stop the slagging the cabin crew off, if truth be known their are people lining up to take ALL of our jobs, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE - and they would do anything to get them and on cheaper, new contracts. There are pilots on dole queues too!!!!!!!!!!!

As mentioned earlier, the BA figures just don't add up, and if they succeed in crushing the cabin crew, How long do you think they won't add up for again before they look elsewhere for savings?

And where do you think they will look then?

And who will be standing alongside you to support you???????????

I have my vote on the side in the kitchen, i am at a crossroads. Can i afford to trust Willy and his team (who will all still be paid bonuses this year and continue to latch up fines like collecting confetti at a wedding with no sackings for incompetence) Can i afford NOT to trust a union i despise (who still manage to pick and choose trips with BA managements knowledge).

Support is what we need, Unity is what we need, Negotiation is what we need. We do not need people sitting and judging from higher up with only one way to go!

[keel beam]

I hope any court would not take any external influences into account.

It will be about a point of law.

The court will deal with facts and facts only. No speculation, just pure facts.

TBH, do any of us know ALL the facts? I certainly do not and I suspect most, if not all, of the contributors on this thread do not know either!

[bealine]

A Humble Request to BA Cabin Crew Please!

Yesterday,may colleagues and I were treated in a very hostile manner by a certain Cabin Services Director (who shall remain nameless). My colleagues wanted to report him, but I talked them out of it because there are far too many "EG fizzers" going through the company at the moment and far too much tittle-tattle! I am not into getting someone into trouble - doesn't float my boat at all!

Since WW asked for "volunteer wannabe crew members", we have, all of us on the ground, noticed a distinct "attitude" among many crew when dealing with us or even just walking through the terminal! (Of course, some of what we think is "attitude" may just be because they feel a little apprehensive of talking to us and choose to stay aloof rather than provide an opportunity for confrontation. I added this bit later after I thought about the situation a bit more!)

Please, can I implore you, to continue to behave in a professional manner towards us and to remember:

1. Not all ground staff (in point of fact, very few) have joined WW's Volunteer Army.
2. Quite a few Ground Staff support you.
3. Many Ground Staff, like myself, don't support industrial action, but do understand the reasons behind it and will heed out unions' request and boycott WW's Volunteer Army.
4. Some of the guys who have joined the Volunteer Army are not doing it out of spite, but because they are (misguidedly in my opinion) youngsters who secretly "wannabe cabin crew!" We've tried telling them that this ain't no fastrack route to 36,000 feet, but you know what kids are!

So, please guys and gals, when you see Bealine, come back to being the chirpy, smiley people I know you are! Whatever happens, I love ya, and so do most of my colleagues!

[FlexSRS]

Originally Posted by keel beam

The court will deal with facts and facts only. No speculation, just pure facts.

I think this shows you don't really have a firm grasp of what happens in court.

The law is not black and white, no matter what Bassa might try and say to simplify it down for their members. "You can't get sacked"etc.

If it was just about black and white facts, they would be presented, the Judge would look up the answer in the big book of law, and the whole thing would take about 10mins.

How many times a week to you read about decisions in court that are not like this? Decisions that are made, unmade, overturned, revisited by higher courts etc. If the law was black and white, you or I would be up there earning £500,000 a year as a QC just looking up the answers. In truth the law is full of infinite shades of grey, open to all sorts of interpretations, and full of lovely woolly terms like 'reasonable' 'as far as practicable' 'to the best of their ability' and so on. Just look at the Iraq enquiry, half of it would be over in about 10mins! "Did res 1441 allow for legal military action against Iraq ... Hmm ... Its on page 1852 ... Ah, here it is. No it doesn't. Thanks for coming everyone"

So, no, the judge might not "speculate", but the QCs on each side sure as hell will, because this is going to come down to interpretation and intent and all sorts of lovely subjective areas. The real world is not as simple as Liz Malone, or her newsletters.

[m4rx]

Bea -

Please accept an apology from myself in regard to my colleagues treatment of you, it was unacceptable behavior by somebody that should know better.
Being ex ground staff myself i have nothing but admiration for what you and your teams do. Nobody should be treating anybody with anything other than respect.

This infighting has to stop, no matter who you are and where you work!!!!

[Flap62]

Bealine,

Can you please expand on

unions' request and boycott WW's Volunteer Army

[keel beam]

FlexSRS

I put my hands up, I am not fully conversant with court proceedings and judgements.

The point being though that facts are a factor. Interpretation also.

At the end of the day, a definitive answer is needed. In this case ASAP. The company cannot afford to wallow in this uncertainty.

KB

[Litebulbs]

La Pouquelaye

Ok, win is not a word that should have been used, unless coupled with "- win".

With regard to the whole point of the court hearing, the end result is black and white, either contractual or not. If it is non contractual, then BA are already halfway to their end game. If it is, then they owe existing crew quite a substantial amount of money. That gives Unite stronger bargaining power to protect against any future changes.

[Snas]

Keel, off to HMV with you old bean, a box set of Rumpole has your name on it..

The fact is that the court case is the most important and unimportant next stage in this sorry affair perhaps.

Both sides seem dead keen on ignoring it to a degree.

If the court rules in favour of BA I believe BASSA intends to continue the strike action anyway. If the court rules in favour of BASSA then BA will change the terms of contract via 90 day notice.

No..?

[FlexSRS]

Originally Posted by Litebulbs

Ok, win is not a word that should have been used, unless coupled with "- win".

With regard to the whole point of the court hearing, the end result is black and white, either contractual or not. If it is non contractual, then BA are already halfway to their end game. If it is, then they owe existing crew quite a substantial amount of money. That gives Unite stronger bargaining power to protect against any future changes.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you again (although it is nice to be able to have a sensible debate about these things without descending in to the " you must hate all crew " or " you failed your CC selection")

Anyway, the way I see it, and it is only a considered opinion is as follows;

It may be a win-win, but it will be a win-win for BA only at this point.

a) If it is not contractual, BASSA look like idiots, BA are free to continue, and the strike looks more and more ridiculous. BA can pursue Unite/Bassa for costs, members loose faith, Malone & Co lose face, and BA have the upper hand in terms of PR etc, the momentum is on their side. You will be striking over something (although not the issue directly) that has been shown to be legal. Yes, it was still imposed, but it was legal. A tough call just got tougher, and the wavering crew will come down firmly on the 'turn up to work' side I reckon, especially those wanting their staff travel.

b) If it is contractual, BA are now in the position where they are required to recruit about 1000 people and pay tens of £millions in 1 down payments (I think last time someone calculated it it came to about £4 or 5k per LHR-WW crew member, don't know the answer, but it is a lot.) Now, BA have some options

• Pay up and come back to the negotiating table with their tail between their legs - not going to happen. They can't afford to. Literally.
• Pay up and recruit 1000 new people on to New Fleet; They will be swamped with applications from ex Virgin, BMI, Globespan crew. This will a) Send a very powerful message and b) Allow them to start recouping costs by flying the New Fleet exclusively on the highest paying routes. Meanwhile they will issue a 90 day change of contract to existing crew writing in the new crewing levels, or their ability to change them at will. All the 'protections' that were offered to existing crew are off the table. Prepare to have anything that isn't contractual decimated. Hotels etc will be just the tip of the iceberg.
• The nuclear option. Delay paying up while they appeal and appeal and appeal (see the Holiday Pay case, still going on after years) On the same day, issue 90 days notice to all crew, and offer them a new contract which has the new crewing levels on it and probably a new disruption agreement, and some tinkering with EF productivity.
• The thermonuclear option. Issue notice to all crew to re-apply for their old jobs on very similar terms, agree to not strike with the alternative being 90 days notice of New Fleet contracts. Seniority is re-started, with the person who re-applies first becoming no1 on the list, and so on. Stand back and watch the stampede.

What I really do not see happening is BASSA coming out any better off as a result of this court case. They are either going to lose and have to try and get some face saving measure, or win, and really force BAs hand, and that is not something that is going to be good for cabin crew.

However, I am standing by to have my opinion changed by some well reasoned argument (seriously - I am open minded and willing to be persuaded by some clear thinking and logic - I am in the fortunate position of not having to nail my colours to the mast and risk my career directly by having to have blind faith in one camp or the other)

[Litebulbs]

I imagine that there will be long conversations between Unite FTO's and BASSA reps, if the courts rule in their favour.

Normally, a business threatens job cut because of reduced work, unions don't agree etc etc etc and sometimes a strike happens.

In this case, the job reduction has happened and the headcount has already been reduced. However, the fear of New Fleet is still there and BA will be probably be liable for all that crew down money. You could use BA's words back at them to say no existing crew will be affected but ask for guarantees that existing levels of total pay will be maintained.

Hey, but that is negotiation. If Mr Walsh does not engage then, it is purely Union busting. If Unite pursue reinstatement of all pre imposition conditions, then it will be SOSR/90 day contract and recognition agreement notice at God knows what will be left in the end.