British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Carib Boy
Just bear in mind that BA will surely shoot itself in the foot for acting illegally
Far more likley, and effective in my view, is just to sack a bunch on day one. Given CC's history of throwing in a sickie when they should be striking I dont see them staying brave once 10, 20, 200, whatever, have fallen on their swords.
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Fair point Midman.
Do you agree or disagree with this.
My understanding of the minimum negotiating rights of any recognition agreement is pay, hours of work and holiday. Working down attracts a payment, therefore comes under pay, which forms part of your contractual terms and conditions.
Do you agree or disagree with this.
My understanding of the minimum negotiating rights of any recognition agreement is pay, hours of work and holiday. Working down attracts a payment, therefore comes under pay, which forms part of your contractual terms and conditions.
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My understanding of the minimum negotiating rights of any recognition agreement is pay, hours of work and holiday. Working down attracts a payment, therefore comes under pay, which forms part of your contractual terms and conditions.
Is it in fact, pay therefore?
Best let the court decide that one I say
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Waterside wall
The wall in WTS has messages from people telling why they are backing BA. something like... our customer deserve better, i am proud to fly the flag, i like my job, i am skint, ect... there is nothing derograty or insulting about the crew. it seams to me that again some crew only see what they want to see and not the reality. However I am happy that many choose to think with their own brain.
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Temp crew
one of my colleague is doing the SEP to train as voluntary crew. Being an ex crew it will only take 5 days. He said that the trainers are tougher on the voluntary crew than the other as they need to insure safety standards are met and above. CAA is monitoring this closely. Our volunatry crew will show just the same amount of professionalism as the others. If only all 40.000 of us would work together to get this company better we would not be where we are now. We all make BA, front line operations and admin staff, we should all work as a team but i guess i live in a dream world.
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melissa1510
It's good that someone else has seen that wall and quite frankly I don't believe anything that BASSA send me anymore (although I have actually left the union). I just wish I knew how I could counteract some of their propaganda once in a while.
Oh and the latest beaut of a rumour is that it is against EU law to take staff travel away. I pointed out to my friend that BA could take the staff travel away and then two years later an EU court MAY decide that BA have to give it to you back and then MAY have to reinstate it. But then thats two years of having to pay your own tarvel costs, and whats to say you would win?
ps .. well done on backing BA and hope to see you out on line , I hope I can prove you that we crew are not all power-mad muppets intent on bringing the company down.
Oh and the latest beaut of a rumour is that it is against EU law to take staff travel away. I pointed out to my friend that BA could take the staff travel away and then two years later an EU court MAY decide that BA have to give it to you back and then MAY have to reinstate it. But then thats two years of having to pay your own tarvel costs, and whats to say you would win?
ps .. well done on backing BA and hope to see you out on line , I hope I can prove you that we crew are not all power-mad muppets intent on bringing the company down.
Last edited by AtlasDrawer; 28th Jan 2010 at 21:17. Reason: add ps
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Carib Boy
Some people think that BA will sack striking CC within the 12 week protected strike action period, but can point to little evidence that BA will do such a thing
It would be a large gamble to take with your job and life to be a striker on day 1. Hence in the past CC went for the sick out - wanting to absent themselves from work but not having the moral courage of their convictions. That is a behaviour that IS likely to be repeated. That is why the company has issued warnings about being sick on possible strike days.
Walking into this minefield without a full understanding of what can happen and the consequences of the risks taken would be plain recklessness. BASSA have shown a great reluctance to fully communicate ALL the ramifications of striking. It is therefore important that you educate yourself as to what can happen.
Personally I think it far more likely that Staff Travel will be withdrawn permanently as an opening gambit. Giving 90 day notice and making everyone reapply for their job on a new contract is also a viable legal option for the company, allowing it to change T&Cs but also letting it weed out those that it wishes to get rid of.
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carribean boy
Some people think that BA will sack striking CC within the 12 week protected strike action period, but can point to little evidence that BA will do such a thing. It's easy to get worked up over such a possibility, but now is the time for cool heads
cool heads, the only cool heads I see in this whole mess are the LT your leadership despise so much. You can believe lala as much as you want but I hope you have a plan B whilst waiting for your tribunal.
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Carribbean boy..
You said
[quote]
Some people think that BA will sack striking CC within the 12 week protected strike action period, but can point to little evidence that BA will do such a thing. It's easy to get worked up over such a possibility, but now is the time for cool heads.
Just bear in mind that BA will surely shoot itself in the foot for acting illegally. Remember, BA now has the upper hand in the PR battle due to Unite's blunder in calling for a 12-day strike over Christmas. And this is quite important: the strike isn't just about Unite v BA, it's about winning the hearts and minds of the public who are thinking about whether to do any more business with BA. Right now, the score is Unite 0 BA 1.
[/quote
I agree, although some may disagree with your scoring.
[quote]
Some people think that BA will sack striking CC within the 12 week protected strike action period, but can point to little evidence that BA will do such a thing. It's easy to get worked up over such a possibility, but now is the time for cool heads.
Just bear in mind that BA will surely shoot itself in the foot for acting illegally. Remember, BA now has the upper hand in the PR battle due to Unite's blunder in calling for a 12-day strike over Christmas. And this is quite important: the strike isn't just about Unite v BA, it's about winning the hearts and minds of the public who are thinking about whether to do any more business with BA. Right now, the score is Unite 0 BA 1.
[/quote
I agree, although some may disagree with your scoring.
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Snas,
I suppose it comes down to an implied term/custom and practice. This can be seen in law as contractual, but as you say, the courts will decide.
I would imagine that if the court agrees with Unite, then there is a potential for BA liable for monies lost, which would eclipse any savings made to date. It would give Unite a negotiating position, but that is chasing the ultimate flush.
I suppose it comes down to an implied term/custom and practice. This can be seen in law as contractual, but as you say, the courts will decide.
I would imagine that if the court agrees with Unite, then there is a potential for BA liable for monies lost, which would eclipse any savings made to date. It would give Unite a negotiating position, but that is chasing the ultimate flush.
Last edited by Litebulbs; 28th Jan 2010 at 21:39. Reason: Spelling
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Fair point Midman.
Do you agree or disagree with this.
My understanding of the minimum negotiating rights of any recognition agreement is pay, hours of work and holiday. Working down attracts a payment, therefore comes under pay, which forms part of your contractual terms and conditions.
Do you agree or disagree with this.
My understanding of the minimum negotiating rights of any recognition agreement is pay, hours of work and holiday. Working down attracts a payment, therefore comes under pay, which forms part of your contractual terms and conditions.
Secondly, I'm not sure that such payments constitute part of your pay.
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I find it amazing though that even if this is found at court next week to be non-contractual and BA win this Unite are still going to go ahead with a strike.
I know it's about the principal of ''imposition'' as many crew say (whatever next!?!? one day it is crew complements next day it is your CATs) but surely a company can impose changes that are NON-CONTRACTUAL if they feel they need to. Especially if they have talked with the TU for 9 months.
Obviously I can understand if it was contractual, but if the changes are, then all BA has to do is recruit these crew on a new contract, or put some crew back up full time, and stop any new part time offers, and hey presto! (Or like someone says they would just probably give 90 days notice of change of contract and then reduce the crew again'!)
So why do we need to strike when we are going to court next week.
Or have I missed the point?
I know it's about the principal of ''imposition'' as many crew say (whatever next!?!? one day it is crew complements next day it is your CATs) but surely a company can impose changes that are NON-CONTRACTUAL if they feel they need to. Especially if they have talked with the TU for 9 months.
Obviously I can understand if it was contractual, but if the changes are, then all BA has to do is recruit these crew on a new contract, or put some crew back up full time, and stop any new part time offers, and hey presto! (Or like someone says they would just probably give 90 days notice of change of contract and then reduce the crew again'!)
So why do we need to strike when we are going to court next week.
Or have I missed the point?
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Midman,
Just imagine this conversation in court!
Most, but not all reasons for payments outside of basic pay, are because you have done something extra. The argument here would be that an establishment figure has been set for a place of work.
As it stood, if that establishment figure had been varied, then a compensatory payment would be made. There is nothing to stop a business varying establishment figures, but because you have a procedure to compensate for this and that is pay and as pay is a basic negotiated term, then it is a contractual position.
Just imagine this conversation in court!
Most, but not all reasons for payments outside of basic pay, are because you have done something extra. The argument here would be that an establishment figure has been set for a place of work.
As it stood, if that establishment figure had been varied, then a compensatory payment would be made. There is nothing to stop a business varying establishment figures, but because you have a procedure to compensate for this and that is pay and as pay is a basic negotiated term, then it is a contractual position.
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custom and practice
Ah, the discussion turns towards the legal horror that is custom and practice, in essense the argument that something has been such a way for long enough for it to now be considered part of my terms and conditions of employment - put very simply.
For those of you that are not BASSA drones and like to do a little research yourselves this (Practice makes custom perfectly binding) is a fairly good bit of text to start with that will increase your understanding of the issue at hand.
Have a look in your contracts btw, there may be a line in there specifically stating that a perk, favour, etc is not to be considered a term over time, rather common way of avoiding this whole issue for employers these days.
Anyway, happy reading ..!
P.S The legal details may all be rather mute as right or wrong unions dont have a good track record of beating companies when they end up in the courts..
For those of you that are not BASSA drones and like to do a little research yourselves this (Practice makes custom perfectly binding) is a fairly good bit of text to start with that will increase your understanding of the issue at hand.
Have a look in your contracts btw, there may be a line in there specifically stating that a perk, favour, etc is not to be considered a term over time, rather common way of avoiding this whole issue for employers these days.
Anyway, happy reading ..!
P.S The legal details may all be rather mute as right or wrong unions dont have a good track record of beating companies when they end up in the courts..
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As it stood, if that establishment figure had been varied, then a compensatory payment would be made. There is nothing to stop a business varying establishment figures, but because you have a procedure to compensate for this and that is pay and as pay is a basic negotiated term, then it is a contractual position.
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Get over it. UNITE will win next month and BA will have to get the crewing levels back. Payback time
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ACAS Guide Page 2
Snas,
This is a good read -
Acas - Advice leaflet - Varying a contract of employment
These guides seem to be the bench mark in tribunals today.
This is a good read -
Acas - Advice leaflet - Varying a contract of employment
These guides seem to be the bench mark in tribunals today.
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Allowances make up part of your pay. They are a contractual term. To vary allowances requires (well legally, as I see it, but could be proved wrong very shortly) agreement and generally appear on a pay packet.
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MissM,
I think that chance is 50/50 at the moment, we will wait and see BUT:
Scenario: Unite win next week (may couple of days to reach a result) What do you reckon both sides will do? Do you think BA will back down and say ok, we give in no changes now? Actually, how do you think the crew members will be put back on? The whole reason crew were offered VR and part time was to facilitate the reduction in crew complements. So with the headcount numbers reduced we would have to recruit more crew. Do you not think that this could be the birth of New Fleet/or the new contract?
This will not change the fact that BA are wanting to make savings. These crew complements save around £40m in two years the other £100m will be in New Fleet/FlexiFleet proposals BA have proposed. If crew complements have to be restored, then we have another £40m of the budget to be saved on top of the £100m in savings BA have put their proposals at. EEK! Where will that come from if not from crew complements?
Also, will BASSA/Unite still be balloting until BA accepts their proposal?? Which saves only a 1/3rd of what BA need and has some rather weird proposals in there (although if I'm honest i'm not totally against it)
Get over it. UNITE will win next month and BA will have to get the crewing levels back. Payback time.
Scenario: Unite win next week (may couple of days to reach a result) What do you reckon both sides will do? Do you think BA will back down and say ok, we give in no changes now? Actually, how do you think the crew members will be put back on? The whole reason crew were offered VR and part time was to facilitate the reduction in crew complements. So with the headcount numbers reduced we would have to recruit more crew. Do you not think that this could be the birth of New Fleet/or the new contract?
This will not change the fact that BA are wanting to make savings. These crew complements save around £40m in two years the other £100m will be in New Fleet/FlexiFleet proposals BA have proposed. If crew complements have to be restored, then we have another £40m of the budget to be saved on top of the £100m in savings BA have put their proposals at. EEK! Where will that come from if not from crew complements?
Also, will BASSA/Unite still be balloting until BA accepts their proposal?? Which saves only a 1/3rd of what BA need and has some rather weird proposals in there (although if I'm honest i'm not totally against it)
Last edited by SlideBustle; 28th Jan 2010 at 22:14. Reason: Spelling correction