British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Litebulbs
Agree, tribunals run to the ACAS docs first, the courts, I'm not so sure.
Whilst we are batting this ball back and forth I dont see that the court could / would decide that the crew reduction was a contractual issue, just the loss of the one down payment at best. ..and then it perhaps doesnt happen often enough, in the eyes of the court, to have become a contractual issue?
It is far from a clear cut thing for either party in my view, but I dont see that anyoutcome is really a loss for BA in any way other then a degree of embarrasement, crew levels will remain the same and the payments would cease again after 90 days, and god knows what else at that point...
If you force your employer to change contractual terms they may as well get a few more bits done at the same time perhaps?
Whilst we are batting this ball back and forth I dont see that the court could / would decide that the crew reduction was a contractual issue, just the loss of the one down payment at best. ..and then it perhaps doesnt happen often enough, in the eyes of the court, to have become a contractual issue?
It is far from a clear cut thing for either party in my view, but I dont see that anyoutcome is really a loss for BA in any way other then a degree of embarrasement, crew levels will remain the same and the payments would cease again after 90 days, and god knows what else at that point...
If you force your employer to change contractual terms they may as well get a few more bits done at the same time perhaps?
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Midman,
Just imagine this conversation in court!
Most, but not all reasons for payments outside of basic pay, are because you have done something extra. The argument here would be that an establishment figure has been set for a place of work.
As it stood, if that establishment figure had been varied, then a compensatory payment would be made. There is nothing to stop a business varying establishment figures, but because you have a procedure to compensate for this and that is pay and as pay is a basic negotiated term, then it is a contractual position.
Just imagine this conversation in court!
Most, but not all reasons for payments outside of basic pay, are because you have done something extra. The argument here would be that an establishment figure has been set for a place of work.
As it stood, if that establishment figure had been varied, then a compensatory payment would be made. There is nothing to stop a business varying establishment figures, but because you have a procedure to compensate for this and that is pay and as pay is a basic negotiated term, then it is a contractual position.
The one-down payment is made in the event that less than the established complement operates on the day.
The established complement is changed permanently for business reasons by the company.
The new complement does not attract the payment as it is not below the established complement.
The payment is now made at the established figure -1 complement.
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Time to stop this needless bickering
C'mon you guys, stop all this unnecessary bickering; you are playing right into Willie Walsh's hands. Miz Liz Malone and her lackeys are also enjoying every moment, too.
Have none of you ever read about "divide and rule"?
Vote - either YES or NO - according to your consciences and be done.
Have none of you ever read about "divide and rule"?
Vote - either YES or NO - according to your consciences and be done.
cheerful pessimist
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Some random questions if I may:
1. Do you think that an out of court settlement is likely? Or do you see it going all the way to a judgement? Presumably the two sides are talking in the run-up to the trial. (Is BASSA's least worst outcome from this mess some kind of out of court settlement, linked to withdrawing the threat of IA?)
2. Instead of strike call #2, and assuming a Yes vote, could BASSA opt for a work to rule? Or are they in effect doing this already? Presumably this might save them from some of the potential damages claims, keep the reps in power and still inflict some on-going damage on BA. (Until any 90 day contract changes are introduced that is.) The reduction in crew levels will be difficult to reverse so realistically is this the only way that BASSA can get out of the problem? ie they continue to fight but by way of an on-going work to rule. Over time the reason for the work to rule will be changed to another cause and the original reason quietly dropped.
3. If BA implements the permanent withdrawal of travel benefits for strikers, does the joyous welcoming of this move by other departments at BA, in effect give BA the go ahead to impose it in any future strikes by other departments? Say things go pear shaped in the future and a different department really does have a justifiable strike situation, then wouldn't it be a bit rich to complain about any loss of travel benefits that are then imposed on that department?
4. Would an incentive be for BA to offer a small number of shares, (say 15), to everyone at BA who works on a BASSA strike day, as a thank you for keeping the business running? ie everyone at BA, not just those doing different jobs, would get the same number of shares per strike day worked. This would enforce the feeling of everyone mucking in for the long-term benefit of the company.
As a largely paper based exercise it wouldn't cost BA much in actual readies out of the bank account and any strike won't last long. If recent history carries on then it will cost very little in the long-term as BA is not exactly renown for paying dividends. They could hide the shares in another wrapper / nominee account so the shareholders' names won't appear on the official list of shareholders and then BASSA won't be able to tell who was breaking the strike. (ala hiding shares to avoid animal rights protestors getting hold of names and addresses.)
5. After tackling an already docile and broken ITV workforce, is Adam Crozier going to be WW's successor?
(I am nothing to do with BA.)
1. Do you think that an out of court settlement is likely? Or do you see it going all the way to a judgement? Presumably the two sides are talking in the run-up to the trial. (Is BASSA's least worst outcome from this mess some kind of out of court settlement, linked to withdrawing the threat of IA?)
2. Instead of strike call #2, and assuming a Yes vote, could BASSA opt for a work to rule? Or are they in effect doing this already? Presumably this might save them from some of the potential damages claims, keep the reps in power and still inflict some on-going damage on BA. (Until any 90 day contract changes are introduced that is.) The reduction in crew levels will be difficult to reverse so realistically is this the only way that BASSA can get out of the problem? ie they continue to fight but by way of an on-going work to rule. Over time the reason for the work to rule will be changed to another cause and the original reason quietly dropped.
3. If BA implements the permanent withdrawal of travel benefits for strikers, does the joyous welcoming of this move by other departments at BA, in effect give BA the go ahead to impose it in any future strikes by other departments? Say things go pear shaped in the future and a different department really does have a justifiable strike situation, then wouldn't it be a bit rich to complain about any loss of travel benefits that are then imposed on that department?
4. Would an incentive be for BA to offer a small number of shares, (say 15), to everyone at BA who works on a BASSA strike day, as a thank you for keeping the business running? ie everyone at BA, not just those doing different jobs, would get the same number of shares per strike day worked. This would enforce the feeling of everyone mucking in for the long-term benefit of the company.
As a largely paper based exercise it wouldn't cost BA much in actual readies out of the bank account and any strike won't last long. If recent history carries on then it will cost very little in the long-term as BA is not exactly renown for paying dividends. They could hide the shares in another wrapper / nominee account so the shareholders' names won't appear on the official list of shareholders and then BASSA won't be able to tell who was breaking the strike. (ala hiding shares to avoid animal rights protestors getting hold of names and addresses.)
5. After tackling an already docile and broken ITV workforce, is Adam Crozier going to be WW's successor?
(I am nothing to do with BA.)
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If BA had reduced the level of service to cater for the reduction of headcount, at point of imposition, then the reason for being compensated would have been removed. You could argue that you would then enter into a standard redundancy situation. You could then have restructured the operation around this.
This was not done though. What happened was that you would have to work harder to achieve less total pay.
This was not done though. What happened was that you would have to work harder to achieve less total pay.
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eTicket,
If the courts rule in favour of Unite, then they gain a favourable negotiating position. Say average crew compliment of 9 and 200 flights a day for 3 months, then £50M in crew down payments owed (absolutely fictitious figures, so please do the maths).
Unite then say we want to protect future earnings of all current crew to counter any threat of New Fleet, but for the future of BA, accept a bit harder work, with a very quiet sweetener. Work out a mechanism to do this and shake hands outside of court.
Or is that a dream?!
If the courts rule in favour of Unite, then they gain a favourable negotiating position. Say average crew compliment of 9 and 200 flights a day for 3 months, then £50M in crew down payments owed (absolutely fictitious figures, so please do the maths).
Unite then say we want to protect future earnings of all current crew to counter any threat of New Fleet, but for the future of BA, accept a bit harder work, with a very quiet sweetener. Work out a mechanism to do this and shake hands outside of court.
Or is that a dream?!
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Originally Posted by Litebulbs
This was not done though. What happened was that you would have to work harder to achieve less total pay.
'But wait' I hear you cry, when the CSD is serving tea, they can't be resetting the AVOD etc, (the number of times I hear that bull, how difficult can it be? A 5yr old can work a video player), the service is suffering - this is a standard BASSA line.
So you might say the level of service has been reduced. In this day and age, with 10s of thousands of people losing their jobs, in the real world, I don't think the Judges are going to be hugely concerned with some overly pampered, over paid (compared to the rest of the UK c-crew) having to merely work a bit harder.
Whilst working slightly harder might seem like a crushing hardship, akin to the mines being closed, in the minds of BA crew, trust me when I say for the rest of the world it just looks like a ridiculous tantrum from a bunch of spoiled brats.
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Originally Posted by Litebulbs
Or is that a dream?!
What a lot of crew are realising is that given the various ways of making the savings, 1 down is actually the least painful, because they have realised that it isn't actually that bad at all now they have done it, and it is certainly better than taking a pay cut.
BASSA on the other hand have made this whole thing about putting the crew numbers back to how they were. What are their suggestions for making the savings now? Middle East B-2-Bs - don't make me laugh. By their own hubris they are ruling out the solution that most crew would have probably chosen anyway, a constant mantra of normal crew is "we don't mind working a bit harder, we just want to keep our pay" - ie exactly what they have now. Doh!
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In a war of ideology there are only ever winners, losers and converts.
Anybody who thinks regardless of the legal outcome that WW will be handing out payments to crew neither a student of law or people. Bassa's panacea may involve a victorious day in court, buckets of cash being delivered for dispersal and a return to old practices but everybody outside lala ashram can only see sceismic implications to a BA defeat. For everyone.
If your voting yes then I beg you not to seek comfort in fantasy. If you win the court case BA will invoke 90 day notice. If you lose and strike, I think it will be over in a matter of days, who returns to work will be up to BA not bassa. Either way your reps have either by design, manipulation or sheer studity discarded the oppurtunity to be involved in the managing of the pain of change.
It's the colosseum ladies, it's doesn't matter if ww is Nero or agustus, you are the lion feed and the rest of us are the legion. Good news is the spectators are the British public and press and they are baying for blood.
is unlikely.
Anybody who thinks regardless of the legal outcome that WW will be handing out payments to crew neither a student of law or people. Bassa's panacea may involve a victorious day in court, buckets of cash being delivered for dispersal and a return to old practices but everybody outside lala ashram can only see sceismic implications to a BA defeat. For everyone.
If your voting yes then I beg you not to seek comfort in fantasy. If you win the court case BA will invoke 90 day notice. If you lose and strike, I think it will be over in a matter of days, who returns to work will be up to BA not bassa. Either way your reps have either by design, manipulation or sheer studity discarded the oppurtunity to be involved in the managing of the pain of change.
It's the colosseum ladies, it's doesn't matter if ww is Nero or agustus, you are the lion feed and the rest of us are the legion. Good news is the spectators are the British public and press and they are baying for blood.
is unlikely.
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What are their suggestions for making the savings now?
Increase to contract type
Cancel unpaid leave
Defer part time offers until 01/04/10
Zone close
Cap First Class
Shorthaul surplus to WW
Temps to LGW - LGW transfers
Specific Flight Cancellations
LGW main crew member returns to purserCancel unpaid leave
Defer part time offers until 01/04/10
Zone close
Cap First Class
Shorthaul surplus to WW
Temps to LGW - LGW transfers
Specific Flight Cancellations
Source: - http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/TheWayForwardcombi.pdf
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Litebulb,
That is a dream.
I have taken several J flights since the CSD has to do a few hours serving. Some have been wonderful and made it work with little effort.
On a recent flight the youngish male CSD obviously put every obstacle in his way to ensure the service was the worst I have experienced. This rubs off on the other cabin staff in J who were miserable and did not smile once. No hot towels or second rolls offered. These are the people who should be replaced. There are a lot of very good cabin crew who out number the poor performers.
BA need to identify the poor performers and those who have no interest in the customers, problem is how do they decide who those crew are?
Sadly for the customers the union feeds false information to turn them against BA. I am all for New Fleet because it could result in fresh faces who will speak to the customers. The sooner New Fleet is brought in the better and BA will prosper.
I have no fear in flying with volunteer crew, they cannot be worse than the grumpy grannies and grandads we frequently see on the long range flights.
Short haul flight cabin staff seem more adjusted to working with less crew. I somwtimes fly on the A320 where they still have 4 cabin staff.
I hope they all vote yes for strike action and carry it through. Of course the union reps and hard faced militants will wriggle out of working on the first day of the strike. They will not risk anything for themselves, sadly some of the good crew will be in the firing line.
As far as EU law preventing staff travel removal is concerned, how is it when people go sick their staff travel is removed, where is the EU law to stop that?
That is a dream.
I have taken several J flights since the CSD has to do a few hours serving. Some have been wonderful and made it work with little effort.
On a recent flight the youngish male CSD obviously put every obstacle in his way to ensure the service was the worst I have experienced. This rubs off on the other cabin staff in J who were miserable and did not smile once. No hot towels or second rolls offered. These are the people who should be replaced. There are a lot of very good cabin crew who out number the poor performers.
BA need to identify the poor performers and those who have no interest in the customers, problem is how do they decide who those crew are?
Sadly for the customers the union feeds false information to turn them against BA. I am all for New Fleet because it could result in fresh faces who will speak to the customers. The sooner New Fleet is brought in the better and BA will prosper.
I have no fear in flying with volunteer crew, they cannot be worse than the grumpy grannies and grandads we frequently see on the long range flights.
Short haul flight cabin staff seem more adjusted to working with less crew. I somwtimes fly on the A320 where they still have 4 cabin staff.
I hope they all vote yes for strike action and carry it through. Of course the union reps and hard faced militants will wriggle out of working on the first day of the strike. They will not risk anything for themselves, sadly some of the good crew will be in the firing line.
As far as EU law preventing staff travel removal is concerned, how is it when people go sick their staff travel is removed, where is the EU law to stop that?
Last edited by Jpax; 28th Jan 2010 at 23:56. Reason: spelling
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Litebulbs, how?
Bassa want crew reinstated before they will talk! I'm afraid you can't protect all you have, nobody can!
You work for a loss making company. You are one of the reasons it's making a loss. Work it out!
Bassa want crew reinstated before they will talk! I'm afraid you can't protect all you have, nobody can!
You work for a loss making company. You are one of the reasons it's making a loss. Work it out!
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[QUOTEQuote:
What are their suggestions for making the savings now?
Lets have a recap shall we: -
Increase to contract type
Cancel unpaid leave
Defer part time offers until 01/04/10
Zone close
Cap First Class
Shorthaul surplus to WW
Temps to LGW - LGW transfers
Specific Flight Cancellations
LGW main crew member returns to purser
Source: - http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...rwardcombi.pdf
][/QUOTE]
eh aren't theese the means by which Bassa want BA to cope whilst replacing the crew they paid to leave?
Please explain how caping first, canc flights and zone closure generate revenue from which our pay is delivered?
What are their suggestions for making the savings now?
Lets have a recap shall we: -
Increase to contract type
Cancel unpaid leave
Defer part time offers until 01/04/10
Zone close
Cap First Class
Shorthaul surplus to WW
Temps to LGW - LGW transfers
Specific Flight Cancellations
LGW main crew member returns to purser
Source: - http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloa...rwardcombi.pdf
][/QUOTE]
eh aren't theese the means by which Bassa want BA to cope whilst replacing the crew they paid to leave?
Please explain how caping first, canc flights and zone closure generate revenue from which our pay is delivered?
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I can understand why you would want to reinstate crew complements, before a High Court ruling. If they did not, there would be no reason for going to court. It is about negotiating positions. Hopefully everyone knows the court ruling is pivotal in this.
The outcome come of the ruling will either be a hard battled draw or an absolute mullering. I am sure we agree who sits where with the result.
The outcome come of the ruling will either be a hard battled draw or an absolute mullering. I am sure we agree who sits where with the result.
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Heavy Heavy
I know, quite funny really.
The BASSA blurb that came with the ballot stated, and I quote word for word, "Our comprehensive proposal was dismissed with a one line response".
I cant say I'm surprised when they were proposing dropping flights and customers...! It's a shame that voters didnt recieve a copy of this silly suggestion as I'll bet most havent seen it.
The BASSA blurb that came with the ballot stated, and I quote word for word, "Our comprehensive proposal was dismissed with a one line response".
I cant say I'm surprised when they were proposing dropping flights and customers...! It's a shame that voters didnt recieve a copy of this silly suggestion as I'll bet most havent seen it.
Last edited by Snas; 29th Jan 2010 at 00:01. Reason: typo
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Originally Posted by Litebulbs
I hope any court would not take any external influences into account. It will be decided whether BA are in breach of a contractual term, as it was in November.
Ie, in the harshest trading conditions in a generation, with airlines going bust left & right, in the midst of a global recession, with people up and down the country losing their jobs, is it 'reasonable' for BA to ask its cabin crew, who are already paid way more than the nearest competitors, and who are in some cases (EF)about half as productive, to work very slightly harder?
What do you think?