British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Bealine,
Can you please expand on
Quote:
unions' request and boycott WW's Volunteer Army
Can you please expand on
Quote:
unions' request and boycott WW's Volunteer Army
Thanks, m4rx. I would be grateful if you would pass the word around! Whatever happens, most of us are with you and, much as no one wants BA to go down or our jobs to go, we understand what has brounght this on!
..................and now our pensions! Oh dear me, what a mess we're in!
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Flex
Excellent post
m4rx
I really hope very few pilots are anti crew but i think there are strong anti bassa feelings because,
Like the rest of the company we gave up money and increased productivity because we think the company is in deep trouble.
Bassa said the problem was temporary and their offer would only increase debt. They then went on to use the pilot agreement as a weapon to divide us ( included the 2.61% pay cut missed out the TAFB freeze missed out the 20% flying pay cut and said we would get the money back in shares. Shares depend on being profitable & maximum value is less than half of what we've lost. You were also offered shares subject to 30th June deadline)
BA were always going to make the savings so they imposed the November changes.
The bassa 12 days of Christmas strike was seen as wholey disprotionate, an attack on our customers and the future of our company. Hundreds of pilots voluntiered to be door operators on the BA forum believing the loony left are trying to destroy BA.
Bassa publish the latest mis-information claiming that BALPA were recruiting voluntiers. Not true. Bassa edit this after some pressure and tell us to Foxtrot Oscar. This resulted in many more voluntiers.
We see friends and colleagues being led down the path to ruin by a dishonest union and will not lose our jobs over the egos of the bassa reps. It isn't you, it is your union.
Believe Bill Frances:
Strike , you are nufleet
No strike , you might be nufleet in a few years.
BA will need to be seen to reward loyality so will not punish no voters with a new contract. I suspect FlexSRS is accurate above with his prediction of the near future if there is a strike.
Excellent post
m4rx
I really hope very few pilots are anti crew but i think there are strong anti bassa feelings because,
Like the rest of the company we gave up money and increased productivity because we think the company is in deep trouble.
Bassa said the problem was temporary and their offer would only increase debt. They then went on to use the pilot agreement as a weapon to divide us ( included the 2.61% pay cut missed out the TAFB freeze missed out the 20% flying pay cut and said we would get the money back in shares. Shares depend on being profitable & maximum value is less than half of what we've lost. You were also offered shares subject to 30th June deadline)
BA were always going to make the savings so they imposed the November changes.
The bassa 12 days of Christmas strike was seen as wholey disprotionate, an attack on our customers and the future of our company. Hundreds of pilots voluntiered to be door operators on the BA forum believing the loony left are trying to destroy BA.
Bassa publish the latest mis-information claiming that BALPA were recruiting voluntiers. Not true. Bassa edit this after some pressure and tell us to Foxtrot Oscar. This resulted in many more voluntiers.
We see friends and colleagues being led down the path to ruin by a dishonest union and will not lose our jobs over the egos of the bassa reps. It isn't you, it is your union.
Believe Bill Frances:
Strike , you are nufleet
No strike , you might be nufleet in a few years.
BA will need to be seen to reward loyality so will not punish no voters with a new contract. I suspect FlexSRS is accurate above with his prediction of the near future if there is a strike.
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Bealine,
Thanks for the clarification
Thanks for the clarification
To clarify a bit further, you see, regardless of whether or not we agree 100% with BASSA or not, one thing we are all in unanimous agreement about is that any significant changes which our TU represented workers have to accept should be agreed by negotiation and not forced through.
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M4rx, welcome to the debate; a reasoned and thought out response.
Firstly, I can assure you that the vast majority of pilots, (99.999%) do not want to destroy cabin crew. We have a very good working relationship, and in a lot of cases, personal relationships with crew. However, a very large proportion of us, who are in the position of being able to stand back from this dispute and take in the whole argument, seeing both sides, are firmly against the BASSA position, and feel, if anything, that it is the hubris, arrogance and one-upmanship from your very 'leaders' in BASSA, and the political games that are being played out at Unite HQ that are going to 'destroy cabin crew'
You make lots of points that I would love to discuss, but I am short on time, so I will just come back to this old chesnut
BA is not asking you to take a pay cut. - They have even gone to some lengths to protect your pay. They can't legally take your pay without a change of contract anyway. the only people who have offered a paycut are BASSA and they didn't even ask the crew if that is what they wanted.
This whole strike has nothing to do with pay, however, I'm sure Liz Malone would like to muddy the waters and make it so.
I don't know you, but I will take a guess, and say that you would probably be in the majority group of employees who would rather work a little bit harder, and hang on to your pay which you work hard for. Am I right?
The sad thing is, if BASSA had actually negotiated, and come to a settlement back in the summer, you could have just had the crew complement changes, and that was it. Pay protected, box payments protected by an average payment (and no, it doesn't include meal payments, you still get those, and no, Miss Malone, dividing it by 365 days and 24hrs a day to get some low number isn't going to fool anyone). Protection from New Fleet, and even discussion as to how it would or would not come about.
As well as this, you could have had the share scheme that was on offer to everyone, I think there might have even been some extra staff travel tickets on the table at one point. None of this stress, none of the 12 days of Xmas, none of the public vilification, all the VR people getting what they wanted, 1000s and 1000s of your colleagues getting the part time they desperately wanted, already spending more time with their families or studying or pursuing other business interests.
When you look at the position you are in now, that initial offer of just getting on with the 'one down' (now you have seen it's not that bad at all) suddenly looks rather good. I think a lot of people now get the feeling they are being herded down a one way street towards a mincing machine, and are looking back over their shoulders thinking it suddenly doesn't seem like a good idea. However, you are being marched down this street with the likes of Malone and her kitchen-fitting-cronies bringing up the rear with a pistol pointed at your back. No dissent or questioning is allowed, you are being marched to your doom.
The sad thing is, the people marching you towards your untimely demise have totally lost sight of the realities of the situation. It has become personal now, it is Malone v Walsh and who has the bigger metaphorical balls. It's no longer about what is best for crew, it's personal interests and posturing, and that is the saddest thing about this whole sorry affair.
Firstly, I can assure you that the vast majority of pilots, (99.999%) do not want to destroy cabin crew. We have a very good working relationship, and in a lot of cases, personal relationships with crew. However, a very large proportion of us, who are in the position of being able to stand back from this dispute and take in the whole argument, seeing both sides, are firmly against the BASSA position, and feel, if anything, that it is the hubris, arrogance and one-upmanship from your very 'leaders' in BASSA, and the political games that are being played out at Unite HQ that are going to 'destroy cabin crew'
You make lots of points that I would love to discuss, but I am short on time, so I will just come back to this old chesnut
Originally Posted by m4rx
But should my salary be cut by a third after 20 years because it is alleged that a starter at virgin earns less
This whole strike has nothing to do with pay, however, I'm sure Liz Malone would like to muddy the waters and make it so.
I don't know you, but I will take a guess, and say that you would probably be in the majority group of employees who would rather work a little bit harder, and hang on to your pay which you work hard for. Am I right?
The sad thing is, if BASSA had actually negotiated, and come to a settlement back in the summer, you could have just had the crew complement changes, and that was it. Pay protected, box payments protected by an average payment (and no, it doesn't include meal payments, you still get those, and no, Miss Malone, dividing it by 365 days and 24hrs a day to get some low number isn't going to fool anyone). Protection from New Fleet, and even discussion as to how it would or would not come about.
As well as this, you could have had the share scheme that was on offer to everyone, I think there might have even been some extra staff travel tickets on the table at one point. None of this stress, none of the 12 days of Xmas, none of the public vilification, all the VR people getting what they wanted, 1000s and 1000s of your colleagues getting the part time they desperately wanted, already spending more time with their families or studying or pursuing other business interests.
When you look at the position you are in now, that initial offer of just getting on with the 'one down' (now you have seen it's not that bad at all) suddenly looks rather good. I think a lot of people now get the feeling they are being herded down a one way street towards a mincing machine, and are looking back over their shoulders thinking it suddenly doesn't seem like a good idea. However, you are being marched down this street with the likes of Malone and her kitchen-fitting-cronies bringing up the rear with a pistol pointed at your back. No dissent or questioning is allowed, you are being marched to your doom.
The sad thing is, the people marching you towards your untimely demise have totally lost sight of the realities of the situation. It has become personal now, it is Malone v Walsh and who has the bigger metaphorical balls. It's no longer about what is best for crew, it's personal interests and posturing, and that is the saddest thing about this whole sorry affair.
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I am really looking forward to there being some promotion possibilities on New Fleet - currently as main crew there is no chance! I am really interested in the role of CSM - is there anyone on here who can give me a heads up as to the application process?
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Bill Francis confirmed in a chat session today that staff travel will be PERMANENTLY removed for those who strike - I'm sure some commuters are having second thoughts.
Have you read some of the comments on the other forums? I'm actually ashamed to be having some of them as my colleagues - some are utterly disgusting.
Have you read some of the comments on the other forums? I'm actually ashamed to be having some of them as my colleagues - some are utterly disgusting.
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any significant changes which our TU represented workers have to accept should be agreed by negotiation
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quote
I've been very clear that if crew vote yes and then go on strike, there will be a huge financial cost to the company.
Removing staff travel permanently from those who take strike action will contribute to recovering those costs.
Removing staff travel permanently from those who take strike action will contribute to recovering those costs.
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fly12345,
no it won't because the intention is to make it to expensive for crew to commute thus forcing their hands.
Removing staff travel permanently from those who take strike action will contribute to recovering those costs.
Last edited by the heavy heavy; 29th Jan 2010 at 15:45. Reason: getting back on thread - venting over
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the heavy heavy, my quote is from BF and not from me, as for commuters, there is good and bad wherever you commute from and if or not you pay taxes.
to further inflame an already very sad situation doesn t really help one s argument.
As a matter of fact most Spanish and other European commuters are not even or entirely Latin but tax free ex pats from the UK living there from this country.
to further inflame an already very sad situation doesn t really help one s argument.
As a matter of fact most Spanish and other European commuters are not even or entirely Latin but tax free ex pats from the UK living there from this country.
Last edited by fly12345; 29th Jan 2010 at 15:14.
Unemployment is high in Spain.
Spain Joblessness Climbs to 18.8%, Highest Since 1998 (Update2) - BusinessWeek
Spain Joblessness Climbs to 18.8%, Highest Since 1998 (Update2) - BusinessWeek
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apologies. If BF is saying that then i'm afraid he is being disingenuous, part of the ongoing war.
Originally Posted by The Heavy Heavy
It may not be very PC to say that the loss of a few hundred [commuters] from rome/paris/bcn may be more of a loss to A&F than BA but im pretty sure its true.
However, all that aside, there is a known problem regarding crew commuting from a long way away, trying to avoid nights in the UK for tax reasons, and turning up to work moaning, cold, tired, almost demanding they get first rest and a blanket. We have all seen it. The same could be said for British crew who now live in a tax exile and do the same thing, I don't think nationality really comes in to it, it's just commuting from a long distance.
I really do think that the promise of having staff travel removed will really concentrate some minds though. I don't think it will stop them (commuters) voting YES, but I am pretty damn sure they will turn up to work, and they will be able to justify it to themselves and their colleagues that 'it's alright for you, you can just drive in to work for the next 20 years, I can't. I HAVE to come in during the strike'
Last edited by FlexSRS; 29th Jan 2010 at 15:51. Reason: Edited to reflect a poster or mod removing their post that they probably thought better of on reflection
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Let’s not get distracted, the sexuality, nationality or ethnicity of crew has nothing whatsoever to do with this dispute.
In fact I would suggest that even raising any of the above is not only irrelevant but unhelpful at best.
[Edit - the posts that caused me to write the above have gone, I'll leave mine though as a gentle reminder eh]
In fact I would suggest that even raising any of the above is not only irrelevant but unhelpful at best.
[Edit - the posts that caused me to write the above have gone, I'll leave mine though as a gentle reminder eh]
Last edited by Snas; 29th Jan 2010 at 15:57. Reason: Posts vanished.
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I really hope very few pilots are anti crew but i think there are strong anti bassa feelings because,
Like the rest of the company we gave up money and increased productivity because we think the company is in deep trouble.
Bassa said the problem was temporary and their offer would only increase debt. They then went on to use the pilot agreement as a weapon to divide us ( included the 2.61% pay cut missed out the TAFB freeze missed out the 20% flying pay cut and said we would get the money back in shares. Shares depend on being profitable & maximum value is less than half of what we've lost. You were also offered shares subject to 30th June deadline)
BA were always going to make the savings so they imposed the November changes.
The bassa 12 days of Christmas strike was seen as wholey disprotionate, an attack on our customers and the future of our company. Hundreds of pilots voluntiered to be door operators on the BA forum believing the loony left are trying to destroy BA.
Bassa publish the latest mis-information claiming that BALPA were recruiting voluntiers. Not true. Bassa edit this after some pressure and tell us to Foxtrot Oscar. This resulted in many more voluntiers.
We see friends and colleagues being led down the path to ruin by a dishonest union and will not lose our jobs over the egos of the bassa reps. It isn't you, it is your union.
Like the rest of the company we gave up money and increased productivity because we think the company is in deep trouble.
Bassa said the problem was temporary and their offer would only increase debt. They then went on to use the pilot agreement as a weapon to divide us ( included the 2.61% pay cut missed out the TAFB freeze missed out the 20% flying pay cut and said we would get the money back in shares. Shares depend on being profitable & maximum value is less than half of what we've lost. You were also offered shares subject to 30th June deadline)
BA were always going to make the savings so they imposed the November changes.
The bassa 12 days of Christmas strike was seen as wholey disprotionate, an attack on our customers and the future of our company. Hundreds of pilots voluntiered to be door operators on the BA forum believing the loony left are trying to destroy BA.
Bassa publish the latest mis-information claiming that BALPA were recruiting voluntiers. Not true. Bassa edit this after some pressure and tell us to Foxtrot Oscar. This resulted in many more voluntiers.
We see friends and colleagues being led down the path to ruin by a dishonest union and will not lose our jobs over the egos of the bassa reps. It isn't you, it is your union.
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flex,
have deleted the post cause it was off thread and a mild sleepless induced rant!
there are great crew from all walks of life, orientations and nationalities. My experience on the '400 flying to the premium destinations, that bassa covet so much, that seem to be crewed by the same people all the time has probably coloured my judgement.
The numbers of crew who I see on the 400 that see the job as an inconvience whilst getting them to an A&F, pool, or boyfriend was the single biggest shock I had when coming from short haul. The numbers of crew I listen to on the bus/flight deck displaying nothing but contempt for our passengers whilst explaining to me why Bassa must win and they should give up nothing has driven me over the edge. It's been very hard but I've managed to keep the dispute out of my work bubble. excuse me if i vent on here,
i've enjoyed reading your postings and apologise for any offence you found in mine.
ps i have also stopped going to sin/hkg/syd to avoid having to listen!
have deleted the post cause it was off thread and a mild sleepless induced rant!
there are great crew from all walks of life, orientations and nationalities. My experience on the '400 flying to the premium destinations, that bassa covet so much, that seem to be crewed by the same people all the time has probably coloured my judgement.
The numbers of crew who I see on the 400 that see the job as an inconvience whilst getting them to an A&F, pool, or boyfriend was the single biggest shock I had when coming from short haul. The numbers of crew I listen to on the bus/flight deck displaying nothing but contempt for our passengers whilst explaining to me why Bassa must win and they should give up nothing has driven me over the edge. It's been very hard but I've managed to keep the dispute out of my work bubble. excuse me if i vent on here,
i've enjoyed reading your postings and apologise for any offence you found in mine.
ps i have also stopped going to sin/hkg/syd to avoid having to listen!
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Most commuters will probably do this - they vote yes and keep their fingers crossed they will be away on a trip during the strike. That would solve their problems. If not - most will come into work because they CANNOT afford to lose their staff travel. What would their options be - buy full fare tickets, fly easyJet or Ryanair and take the bus to and from LHR or move to the UK? It would cause too much trouble for them.
FlexSRS is right about the known problem about commuters - again there are crew who live 20 minutes away from LHR and call themselves a commuter.
I remember some years ago when I worked with a commuter - he had to drive for an hour to the airport - and take 2 flights to get to LHR. Our flight was in the evening and he had been up since 5 that morning - he almost fell asleep on his jumpseat!
FlexSRS is right about the known problem about commuters - again there are crew who live 20 minutes away from LHR and call themselves a commuter.
I remember some years ago when I worked with a commuter - he had to drive for an hour to the airport - and take 2 flights to get to LHR. Our flight was in the evening and he had been up since 5 that morning - he almost fell asleep on his jumpseat!
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As the wheel goes round and round, and all the niceties of; individual contracts; T&C; allowances "safety and service for customers" [who are they?]; and all the minutiae of the operation are discussed - the fact remains that to survive BA has to achieve some substantial savings in its operating costs.
NOT from reducing pay and/or benefits for those who already work for the company.
NOT from reducing staffing levels across the board, and imposing redundancy.
YES is simply asking LHR crews to do what their colleagues at LGW do; work with one fewer CC, and have the CSD contribute to the workload. This is legal, according to the CAA who determine these matters, otherwise LGW wouldn't be allowed to operate as they do.
SO - the argument is simple.
1. BA imposes the necessary changes, or the company goes bust.
2. BASSA insist the changes are 'imposition', and either strikes or wins its case, so money continues to leach out of the door, and the company goes bust.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand the mindset of those CC who are apparently completely committed to causing the collapse of their employer.
For BASSA it is a complete lose-lose scenario, whichever way it works out.
[I am not a rocket-scientist, but I do understand money in/money out]
NOT from reducing pay and/or benefits for those who already work for the company.
NOT from reducing staffing levels across the board, and imposing redundancy.
YES is simply asking LHR crews to do what their colleagues at LGW do; work with one fewer CC, and have the CSD contribute to the workload. This is legal, according to the CAA who determine these matters, otherwise LGW wouldn't be allowed to operate as they do.
SO - the argument is simple.
1. BA imposes the necessary changes, or the company goes bust.
2. BASSA insist the changes are 'imposition', and either strikes or wins its case, so money continues to leach out of the door, and the company goes bust.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand the mindset of those CC who are apparently completely committed to causing the collapse of their employer.
For BASSA it is a complete lose-lose scenario, whichever way it works out.
[I am not a rocket-scientist, but I do understand money in/money out]
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There's never been a problem in the past to work with one down - the only difference is that they are not getting the one down payment. That's where the shoe pinches.
You should hear some crew - some are even claiming that they have taken a pay cut because they are not getting the money from the removed crew member.
You should hear some crew - some are even claiming that they have taken a pay cut because they are not getting the money from the removed crew member.