British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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A Lurker,
Perhaps you could explain the rational behind BA leaving the rather lucrative Cabin Crew pay structure intact?
How will BA pay for this into the future? Bear in mind that yields have been dropping and are forecast never to return to the levels of 2007 as, even if passenger load factors return to previous levels, the fuel prices will damp down the yield.
Perhaps you could explain to all those who read this thread from other departments which have achieved their cost savings and have taken their pay cuts to ensure the survival of BA why they should 'prop' up the Terms and Conditions of the Cabin Crew?
Why should BA, and the rest of the employees, grant BASSA the advantage of re-negotiating when BASSA have failed to negotiate at any point in the past. Futility springs to mind.
So, why should the Cabin Crew be dealt with differently to the rest of BA? Again? Just like all the last times when BASSA have thrown their toys out of the cot.
Enough is enough.
Perhaps you could explain the rational behind BA leaving the rather lucrative Cabin Crew pay structure intact?
How will BA pay for this into the future? Bear in mind that yields have been dropping and are forecast never to return to the levels of 2007 as, even if passenger load factors return to previous levels, the fuel prices will damp down the yield.
Perhaps you could explain to all those who read this thread from other departments which have achieved their cost savings and have taken their pay cuts to ensure the survival of BA why they should 'prop' up the Terms and Conditions of the Cabin Crew?
Why should BA, and the rest of the employees, grant BASSA the advantage of re-negotiating when BASSA have failed to negotiate at any point in the past. Futility springs to mind.
So, why should the Cabin Crew be dealt with differently to the rest of BA? Again? Just like all the last times when BASSA have thrown their toys out of the cot.
Enough is enough.
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With regards to your new 'Council' are you planning on being an open, honest and transparent body in dealings with your new members?
I would imagine to start with they would need to tread very carefully. It is perfectly acceptable to publicly outline their ideals and their plans, but in the early stages they need to avoid being publicly identifiable.
Think "obscene" and "cult". And "threats" and "bullying" and "harrassment".
You don't need to be a rocket surgeon to guess how the BASSA oligarchy is likely to respond when they find out that there is someone who could possibly undermine the nonsense they spout - and upset their big fish/small pond scenario.
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So how much do you think that BA Cabin Crew should be paid?
For what it's worth, I think we get paid the right amount, and so, as it happens, does BA. They do feel, justifiably, that we could work a bit harder for the money. And most of us agree that that is the preferred option, far more preferable than a pay cut.
BA are looking at changing the rates of pay for new recruits, but that has been done before. Isn't it about time that we all just knuckled down and got on with it?
And yes, of course, The Professional Cabin Crew Council will be open, honest and transparent to it's members. It would be a collaboration between the members, the representatives and the company to ensure a Win-win situation. Our mission is to find solutions and solve problems to find an outcome which is in everyone's interests. And that's got to be good for us, our customers and our company.
I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own view and not that of BA.
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Posted by HiFlyer14
And yes, of course, The Professional Cabin Crew Council will be open, honest and transparent to it's members. It would be a collaboration between the members, the representatives and the company to ensure a Win-win situation. Our mission is to find solutions and solve problems to find an outcome which is in everyone's interests. And that's got to be good for us, our customers and our company
And yes, of course, The Professional Cabin Crew Council will be open, honest and transparent to it's members. It would be a collaboration between the members, the representatives and the company to ensure a Win-win situation. Our mission is to find solutions and solve problems to find an outcome which is in everyone's interests. And that's got to be good for us, our customers and our company
That frankly, is the way forward for all of us.
Not a Union that is stuck in the 70's trying to bring us all down with their outdated approach and mentality. Professional Cabin Crew Council has the right approach and mindset to move BA in the right direction to safeguard all our jobs to keep BA ahead of the competition in order to survive the recession.
It is a Council elected by sensible, intelligent forward thinking people who have all our interests at heart.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of BA.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 10th Jan 2010 at 18:51.
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I've been reading this for weeks now, and finally decided to join PPRuNe. With all the aggravation involved, and personal comments, and debates about Unions, and all the special payments and benefits that keep being revealed, isn't it time to turn back to the basic point. BA is losing £1M a day, and something has to happen to resolve that problem. If that means some people have to work a bit harder, and if new entrants get paid less than the old school, what's the problem? If the airline fails financially it's a lose-lose situation for everyone.
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The tireseome1
Welcome to PPrune, you have hit the nail on the head, stated the obvious, the problem is that BASSA just don't 'get it' and want to cling on to the past or give up a 'little' for a temporary period.
They have (hilariously) gone from having a policy of "no negotiation" based on a meeting at a racecourse, to "no negotiation until imposition is removed" to "doing this because we care about the service and our customers" (and then announcing a 12 day Christmas strike and refusing in recent days to be flexible with regards to the unprecedented weather), to now negotiating despite imposition (at Unite Gen Sec level).
They (BASSA) are all over the place, hypocritical, contradictory, selfish and frankly spent. Wille has outplayed them, outmanouevered them and seen them off on every level. He must, this time, see them off once and for all. They are now on borrowed time imo. They have no strategy, zero public support and no idea of where they go next.
Priceless.
Welcome to PPrune, you have hit the nail on the head, stated the obvious, the problem is that BASSA just don't 'get it' and want to cling on to the past or give up a 'little' for a temporary period.
They have (hilariously) gone from having a policy of "no negotiation" based on a meeting at a racecourse, to "no negotiation until imposition is removed" to "doing this because we care about the service and our customers" (and then announcing a 12 day Christmas strike and refusing in recent days to be flexible with regards to the unprecedented weather), to now negotiating despite imposition (at Unite Gen Sec level).
They (BASSA) are all over the place, hypocritical, contradictory, selfish and frankly spent. Wille has outplayed them, outmanouevered them and seen them off on every level. He must, this time, see them off once and for all. They are now on borrowed time imo. They have no strategy, zero public support and no idea of where they go next.
Priceless.
Last edited by TOM100; 10th Jan 2010 at 17:06.
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Further evidence of change
The January edition of Air Transport World (ATW) quotes LH execs as stating they are targeting a 40% reduction in costs on its European network, with LH mainline bearing the resposibility and no plans to use Germanwings (LCC) aircraft instead. Last month the German media were told the company was looking at "using some elements from the LCC business model" on continental flights. They have also stated that LH's effort to return its European operation to profitability will stop short of expanding Germanwings role.
Further evidence if indeed any more is required to demonstrate to BASSA that real lasting change is needed in the BA business model and like LH shorthaul needs to be the priority.
Taking a crew member off a flight is only a start. Current productivity is just not sustainable into the future.
Further evidence if indeed any more is required to demonstrate to BASSA that real lasting change is needed in the BA business model and like LH shorthaul needs to be the priority.
Taking a crew member off a flight is only a start. Current productivity is just not sustainable into the future.
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They (BASSA) are all over the place, hypocritical, contradictory, selfish and frankly spent. Wille has outplayed the, outmanouevered them and seen them off on every level. He must, this time, see them off once and for all. They are now on borrowed time imo. They have no strategy, zero public support and no idea of where they go next.
Well done Willie Walsh. You have my vote.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of BA.
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I don't always support WW, but on this one, he has the cojones and is commercially bang on. He is having to do very little, BASSA are quite nicely following his strategic plan themselves (and making themselves look like inept idiots at the same time), if they could only see it.....
It would be funny if it was not so serious to peoples' livelihoods.
Tiramisu, HF, Slidebustle et al, I wish you all the very best with PCCC, a very sensible development imo......I hope it finds legs.........BA need to be kept in check, no doubt about it, but by a progressive, commercially focused group, as opposed to a bunch of 70's throwback bullies......
It would be funny if it was not so serious to peoples' livelihoods.
Tiramisu, HF, Slidebustle et al, I wish you all the very best with PCCC, a very sensible development imo......I hope it finds legs.........BA need to be kept in check, no doubt about it, but by a progressive, commercially focused group, as opposed to a bunch of 70's throwback bullies......
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Strike
My gut feeling (for what it's worth!!) is that no strike will take place. I think,and hope,that it will all be sorted out quite soon.The forward booking have to be protected.
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I notice this thread is just one big BASSA bashing game for some of you and it tends to be the same people who don't even belong to BASSA. I do find it strange also that some pilots dislike BASSA now if i was to keep going on BALPA this and BALPA that im sure a few people get angry. I need not remind you all that a new ballot will take place in the coming weeks if people vote YES or NO that will be the decision they make. 92.49% does tell me something if it's more great if it's so be it but all i can say is we support BASSA 100%
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Wonker,
Nobody outside of the CC really care what BASSA do or how much you support BASSA.
Even if the entire CC community were 110% behind BASSA doesn't make what they are doing to the rest of the departments within BA who actually realise what is going on in the world any fairer.
When you want to harp on about how unfair the world is and it only affects your precious little corner of the company then fair game, off you go.
But don't start getting all stroppy when those employees who's jobs your incompetent Union are also putting on the line get annoyed and start expressing their views and opinions.
BASSA don't represent the views of all 40,000 BA employees and they don't have the right to drive the airline over the brink because they can't face up to the stark realities of life in the modern age.
As to what you think of BALPA, I really don't care. They have also done things I don't or didn't agree with and I made my opinion known on those issues to the company council within BALPA. As the Mods have stated this is about the CC Union stance to try and destroy our company.
Nobody outside of the CC really care what BASSA do or how much you support BASSA.
Even if the entire CC community were 110% behind BASSA doesn't make what they are doing to the rest of the departments within BA who actually realise what is going on in the world any fairer.
When you want to harp on about how unfair the world is and it only affects your precious little corner of the company then fair game, off you go.
But don't start getting all stroppy when those employees who's jobs your incompetent Union are also putting on the line get annoyed and start expressing their views and opinions.
BASSA don't represent the views of all 40,000 BA employees and they don't have the right to drive the airline over the brink because they can't face up to the stark realities of life in the modern age.
As to what you think of BALPA, I really don't care. They have also done things I don't or didn't agree with and I made my opinion known on those issues to the company council within BALPA. As the Mods have stated this is about the CC Union stance to try and destroy our company.
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Wonker,
You've missed the point entirely. It's not about whether one is, or isn't, in BASSA (or BALPA for that matter). It's about being able to conduct the debate on a level that allows all players in the game to contribute their opinions (whilst recognising that this is, at the heart of it, a cabin crew forum, moderated by cabin crew members from many different airlines). It's not the BASSA forum, nor is it the BALPA, Unite, RMT or any other forum.
However, it is a forum which uniquely allows access to anyone who chooses to post and, therefore, play by the rules of the forum. Consequently it's a unique place whereby anyone who has a vested interest in the running of BA (in this thread at least) can choose to contribute to the debate, post vitriol or vent their spleen. Hopefully much more of the former.
Whether you like it or not, this is not a place where your posting of a BASSA panegyric will be taken as read and somehow deemed to be the only tone that this forum will tolerate.
Welcome, if you will, to debate and discussion. Sometimes it will be heated, sometimes it will be abusive (and therein lies the function of the moderators in one aspect). However it will, always, I feel, be free, robust and open to challenge. If you are not prepared, in that vein, to defend your corner with objective reasoning, then you might well expect to be excoriated along the way.
To those who come here from a pro-BASSA stance (A Lurker, MissM et al) who I clearly do not agree with, I applaud you for standing your ground and arguing your case. If naught else may come of this fracas, I hope that we will always have intelligent, staunch individuals such as yourselves who can present their cases, even if I choose not, at the end of the debate, to agree with you.
Kind Regards,
MrB
You've missed the point entirely. It's not about whether one is, or isn't, in BASSA (or BALPA for that matter). It's about being able to conduct the debate on a level that allows all players in the game to contribute their opinions (whilst recognising that this is, at the heart of it, a cabin crew forum, moderated by cabin crew members from many different airlines). It's not the BASSA forum, nor is it the BALPA, Unite, RMT or any other forum.
However, it is a forum which uniquely allows access to anyone who chooses to post and, therefore, play by the rules of the forum. Consequently it's a unique place whereby anyone who has a vested interest in the running of BA (in this thread at least) can choose to contribute to the debate, post vitriol or vent their spleen. Hopefully much more of the former.
Whether you like it or not, this is not a place where your posting of a BASSA panegyric will be taken as read and somehow deemed to be the only tone that this forum will tolerate.
Welcome, if you will, to debate and discussion. Sometimes it will be heated, sometimes it will be abusive (and therein lies the function of the moderators in one aspect). However it will, always, I feel, be free, robust and open to challenge. If you are not prepared, in that vein, to defend your corner with objective reasoning, then you might well expect to be excoriated along the way.
To those who come here from a pro-BASSA stance (A Lurker, MissM et al) who I clearly do not agree with, I applaud you for standing your ground and arguing your case. If naught else may come of this fracas, I hope that we will always have intelligent, staunch individuals such as yourselves who can present their cases, even if I choose not, at the end of the debate, to agree with you.
Kind Regards,
MrB
wobble2plank,
I notice that as soon as you gave A Lurker a detailed answer, as well as some testing questions, he/she (depends on who in the family is using the log-on, I think) disappears. Always seems to happen.
And wonker attempts to play all 'sensitive' when anyone criticises BASSA, but is also quite happy to spit venom, on a very personal level, at named individuals. Hopeless!
I notice that as soon as you gave A Lurker a detailed answer, as well as some testing questions, he/she (depends on who in the family is using the log-on, I think
) disappears. Always seems to happen.And wonker attempts to play all 'sensitive' when anyone criticises BASSA, but is also quite happy to spit venom, on a very personal level, at named individuals. Hopeless!
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A third union for cabin crew is probably what BA needs and wants!
How do you expect it to work for your members? I can't see it making really much difference as crew would still work to those terms and conditions negotiated by BASSA and Amicus. The latter, which by the way, really hasn't had anything to say. Or, will you be a union for NewFleet perhaps?
How do you expect it to work for your members? I can't see it making really much difference as crew would still work to those terms and conditions negotiated by BASSA and Amicus. The latter, which by the way, really hasn't had anything to say. Or, will you be a union for NewFleet perhaps?
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MissM
The clue to your answer is in your question.
Many people who don't appreciate Bassa's style, stance, communications etc feel that there is now no moderate mouthpiece for like-minded cabin crew. CC89 was able to fulfil that need to a certain extent, but since it's absorption into Unite, it has lost its independent and alternative voice.
There's a gap waiting to be filled.
Many people who don't appreciate Bassa's style, stance, communications etc feel that there is now no moderate mouthpiece for like-minded cabin crew. CC89 was able to fulfil that need to a certain extent, but since it's absorption into Unite, it has lost its independent and alternative voice.
There's a gap waiting to be filled.
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A third union for cabin crew is probably what BA needs and wants!
How do you expect it to work for your members? I can't see it making really much difference as crew would still work to those terms and conditions negotiated by BASSA and Amicus. The latter, which by the way, really hasn't had anything to say. Or,will you be a union for NewFleet perhaps?
I resigned from AMICUS/BAASA because I lost faith in the fact that the present UNION failed to negotiate on my behalf. When a New Council is formed, it is my belief that they will work with BA for us and not against us. The T's and C's negotiated by the Trade Unions is something that has already been debated if you remember.
New Fleet is not here yet, it won't be long before it is, but BASSA do not wish to have anything to do with New Fleet, otherwise they would have accepted Bill Francis open invitation to discuss New Fleet which he said was 'not set in stone.'
Professional Cabin Crew Council is for anyone wishing to join, present cabin crew including New Fleet.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my views and not those of BA.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 10th Jan 2010 at 22:33.
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When a New Council is formed, it is my belief that they will work with BA for us and not against us.