British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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thanks snas!
I did forget to say in my post that I am disallusioned with SOME of my colleagues.
I am sure that you are correct that there are many that think the same as me. Its just that it is very hard to vocalise any sort of reasonable argument with some crew though. They only believe BA to be the enemy. They forget that they actually work for BA not BASSA. I really find it astonishing that on reading the BASSA forum you have to look with a magnifying glass to find any sort of mention as to the state of our airline or the industry and that perhaps savings may just need to be made! Nothing about the article in The Times online today re us heading for the worst loss in our history for example!
We are in the worst global recession post war for goodness sake (or were - I think we just crawled out this week didnt we?!) Something has gotta give!! Lets work harder for very similar conditions. Isnt that quite easy to take in?!!!
I am sure that you are correct that there are many that think the same as me. Its just that it is very hard to vocalise any sort of reasonable argument with some crew though. They only believe BA to be the enemy. They forget that they actually work for BA not BASSA. I really find it astonishing that on reading the BASSA forum you have to look with a magnifying glass to find any sort of mention as to the state of our airline or the industry and that perhaps savings may just need to be made! Nothing about the article in The Times online today re us heading for the worst loss in our history for example!
We are in the worst global recession post war for goodness sake (or were - I think we just crawled out this week didnt we?!) Something has gotta give!! Lets work harder for very similar conditions. Isnt that quite easy to take in?!!!
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From another place ....
WW has told another employee in no uncertain terms the situation, such that the employee feels able to report:
So, as I see it:
1. Unite win the court case -> BA serve 90-day notice of termination of contract. Current staff have to sign new fleet contract to keep job on industry +10%. Strike vote irrelevant as mandate no longer applies to situation
2. Unite lose court case but deliver strike mandate -> BA serve 90-day notice of termination of contract. Current staff have to sign new fleet contract to keep job on industry +10%. BA recall temps and use volunteers to supplement cabin crew who break strike/not BASSA members to fly basic schedule
3.Unite lose court case and deliver weak strike mandate/no mandate -> BA serve 90-day notice of termination of contract. Current staff have to sign new fleet contract to keep job on industry +10%.
Every which way you cut it, BA will end up with New Fleet at market +10% unless BASSA/Unite call of the ballot and seriously get back round the table in the next week or so. Have the numpties at the top of the BASSA table got the nous to see this? Personally I doubt it.
WW has told another employee in no uncertain terms the situation, such that the employee feels able to report:
He (WW) is not going to back down. He told me that these are issues that should have been addressed in 2001. There is no option other than to deal with them now. Anyone who believes that he is going to back down, however large the vote in favour of strike action, is living in a delusional world.
1. Unite win the court case -> BA serve 90-day notice of termination of contract. Current staff have to sign new fleet contract to keep job on industry +10%. Strike vote irrelevant as mandate no longer applies to situation
2. Unite lose court case but deliver strike mandate -> BA serve 90-day notice of termination of contract. Current staff have to sign new fleet contract to keep job on industry +10%. BA recall temps and use volunteers to supplement cabin crew who break strike/not BASSA members to fly basic schedule
3.Unite lose court case and deliver weak strike mandate/no mandate -> BA serve 90-day notice of termination of contract. Current staff have to sign new fleet contract to keep job on industry +10%.
Every which way you cut it, BA will end up with New Fleet at market +10% unless BASSA/Unite call of the ballot and seriously get back round the table in the next week or so. Have the numpties at the top of the BASSA table got the nous to see this? Personally I doubt it.
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great post
dididi
Great post and wish someone would put it on the bassa website though how long it would last is another issue
Perhaps Ba News would print it?
It is becoming clear that WW is determined to win this.
Lots of other posts paint likely scenarios whereby BASSA and the crew lose. I havent noticed one where BASSA wins and in case anyone forgets this is the current state of the airline industry.
BBC News - Iata says airlines suffered 'worst year' in 2009
Great post and wish someone would put it on the bassa website though how long it would last is another issue
Perhaps Ba News would print it?
It is becoming clear that WW is determined to win this.
Lots of other posts paint likely scenarios whereby BASSA and the crew lose. I havent noticed one where BASSA wins and in case anyone forgets this is the current state of the airline industry.
BBC News - Iata says airlines suffered 'worst year' in 2009
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Logicandsin - thankyou for your vote of confidence in us as cabin crew. It is reassuring to know. Please don't feel that you "put extra work" on anyone - I sincerely hope you have never been given that impression.
We at BA are doing whatever we can to support our customers and get them to their destination, whatever the ballot outcome. Many, many crew like myself and Didididi (welcome!) will be coming into work to operate alongside the thousands of volunteers from other departments. I reckon you will have the time of your life on a BA flight during the strike - a more dedicated and determined workforce you will never meet! Good luck with the cruise - look forward to welcoming you onboard.
Didididi - A very well written post. There are many more like us, and we are all now getting together under the title Professional Cabin Crew Council. This ludicrous destruction of our company has to stop. Please email [email protected]. Together we can make a difference and ensure that people like Logicandsin are able to carry out their well-deserved holiday plans.
We at BA are doing whatever we can to support our customers and get them to their destination, whatever the ballot outcome. Many, many crew like myself and Didididi (welcome!) will be coming into work to operate alongside the thousands of volunteers from other departments. I reckon you will have the time of your life on a BA flight during the strike - a more dedicated and determined workforce you will never meet! Good luck with the cruise - look forward to welcoming you onboard.
Didididi - A very well written post. There are many more like us, and we are all now getting together under the title Professional Cabin Crew Council. This ludicrous destruction of our company has to stop. Please email [email protected]. Together we can make a difference and ensure that people like Logicandsin are able to carry out their well-deserved holiday plans.
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Us and them
Dididi's initial posting to this thread seemed brave and totally genuine - until he/she wrote this:
I realise that this is cynical, but the highlighted bit could just about be construed as management-speak, thus casting doubt on the veracity of the message and the sincerity of the contributor.
Or is it just me being suspicious and cynical?
Keep a commitment from us to keep talking with Unite about
how we recruit new crew
Keep full union representation with an offer from us for
Unite to represent future crew.
how we recruit new crew
Keep full union representation with an offer from us for
Unite to represent future crew.
Or is it just me being suspicious and cynical?
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Originally Posted by La Pouquelaye
Dididi's initial posting to this thread seemed brave and totally genuine - until he/she wrote this:
Quote:
Keep a commitment from us to keep talking with Unite about
how we recruit new crew
Keep full union representation with an offer from us for
Unite to represent future crew.
I realise that this is cynical, but the highlighted bit could just about be construed as management-speak, thus casting doubt on the veracity of the message and the sincerity of the contributor.
Or is it just me being suspicious and cynical?
Quote:
Keep a commitment from us to keep talking with Unite about
how we recruit new crew
Keep full union representation with an offer from us for
Unite to represent future crew.
I realise that this is cynical, but the highlighted bit could just about be construed as management-speak, thus casting doubt on the veracity of the message and the sincerity of the contributor.
Or is it just me being suspicious and cynical?
(using some [ quote ] blah [ / quote ] boxes would make it clearer, but they do say "BF said in his recent letter"
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thanks for replies
thanks everyone who has commented so far. I am so glad to be able to have a decent chat!!
La Pouquelaye (fab name btw!) thanks very much for genuine and brave comment - I can assure you I am very genuine and trying to be brave! It WAS management speak that you were referring to - I was quoting directly from Bill Francis´ recent letter to all of us crew. It was what he has stated we will have his assurance we will keep but only if a NO vote and NO strike happens
Hope this clarifies
La Pouquelaye (fab name btw!) thanks very much for genuine and brave comment - I can assure you I am very genuine and trying to be brave! It WAS management speak that you were referring to - I was quoting directly from Bill Francis´ recent letter to all of us crew. It was what he has stated we will have his assurance we will keep but only if a NO vote and NO strike happens
Hope this clarifies
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@ DIDI ... don't mind La Pouquelaye, he just asks awkward questions [and rightly too]. I had similar uncharitable thoughts, but I believe you. 
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Dillussional
Hiflyer 14 and dididi,
With all due respect you are living in a dream world. WW, KW, and BF want to turn the cabin crew role into a transient workforce who are burned out after 2-5 year and leave...end of.
Whilst I don't agree with everything UNITE is doing or BASSA/CC89 have done in the past; this is our last chance for a settlement which will not turn our job role in something unrecognisable.
I am post 1997 crew, and at the mid-mark of the new pay scale. Anyone who says I am over paid is sadly mistaken.
For job where you knowingly take on tasks such as 5-10 nights missed sleep a month (on longhaul), sacrifice many milestone events in your personal life (I've had a manager suggest my aunt re-arrange my cousin's funeral around my roster), and have to represent a company that no longer empowers frontline staff to use their initiative to solve customer issues; myself and more 50% of the cabin crew work force do this at the post 1997 rates.
I flew for another carrier for 12 years prior to coming to BA, and yes there are some ineffciencies at the Legacy carrier. And I am more than prepared to meet BA halfway on issues. I am happy have one less night down route in LAX, HKG, CPT, etc; I am happy to stay in a clean, safe Motel 6 near the airport in US cities rather than down town; I am willing to work harder on-board to compensate for the loss of the 1-2 cabin crew members we have lost on longhaul flights. I am willing to have my roster adjusted when operational irregularities exist. I have come to the realisation that promotion is now dead. I am happy to fly the maximum 900 annual hours regulated by the EU; but after I have done the above I want control over my personal/worklife balance---something BA is not willing to invest in the technology for.
I am all for consensual change. An agreement that we as a community give back at time when BA is in financial hardship; but get rewarded when the company prospers (a deal which our Flight Colleagues have received). BA have not once offer us any reward for what we give up (once the company is back in profit). The biggest issue is IMPOSITION, if BA can just institute a change whenever it wants, what will be next?
The issue is BA DON'T want to talk. Every day we receive some new threat via e-mail, letter or phone. The company has the public and every other department believing we all earn pots of dough....at least 50% of us are on the new post 1997 contract. BA published very deceiving figures; the figures they used are the average a cabin crew member costs including company NI and pension contributions. The figures they used for Easyjet/Virgin did not. Subsequently, an Easyjet crew member who flies their maximum 900 block hours a year earns MORE than an equivalent crew member at BA.
Why I have voted YES, and will support any action by UNITE.
In the last 2 years an incompetent management team has cost BA billions:
* Openskies;
* Virgin passenger price fixing debacle;
* T5 disaster;
* Cargo price fixing fines;
* Fuel hedging too high;
* Not reacting to market conditions (i.e. not reducing surplus supply soon enough);
* Management redundancies which cost on average £100,000 per separated staff member;
* Continued management bonuses, when all other ranks have been asked to give back;
* A chairman who will receive his "unpaid leave" back as a bonus in 2011,
* Everytime BF sends out a letter to cabin crew this costs approx £2,500 a mailshot. This is well over what I earn in a good month.
The list goes on.
Good luck working during the strike. It won't be easy during or after.
With all due respect you are living in a dream world. WW, KW, and BF want to turn the cabin crew role into a transient workforce who are burned out after 2-5 year and leave...end of.
Whilst I don't agree with everything UNITE is doing or BASSA/CC89 have done in the past; this is our last chance for a settlement which will not turn our job role in something unrecognisable.
I am post 1997 crew, and at the mid-mark of the new pay scale. Anyone who says I am over paid is sadly mistaken.
For job where you knowingly take on tasks such as 5-10 nights missed sleep a month (on longhaul), sacrifice many milestone events in your personal life (I've had a manager suggest my aunt re-arrange my cousin's funeral around my roster), and have to represent a company that no longer empowers frontline staff to use their initiative to solve customer issues; myself and more 50% of the cabin crew work force do this at the post 1997 rates.
I flew for another carrier for 12 years prior to coming to BA, and yes there are some ineffciencies at the Legacy carrier. And I am more than prepared to meet BA halfway on issues. I am happy have one less night down route in LAX, HKG, CPT, etc; I am happy to stay in a clean, safe Motel 6 near the airport in US cities rather than down town; I am willing to work harder on-board to compensate for the loss of the 1-2 cabin crew members we have lost on longhaul flights. I am willing to have my roster adjusted when operational irregularities exist. I have come to the realisation that promotion is now dead. I am happy to fly the maximum 900 annual hours regulated by the EU; but after I have done the above I want control over my personal/worklife balance---something BA is not willing to invest in the technology for.
I am all for consensual change. An agreement that we as a community give back at time when BA is in financial hardship; but get rewarded when the company prospers (a deal which our Flight Colleagues have received). BA have not once offer us any reward for what we give up (once the company is back in profit). The biggest issue is IMPOSITION, if BA can just institute a change whenever it wants, what will be next?
The issue is BA DON'T want to talk. Every day we receive some new threat via e-mail, letter or phone. The company has the public and every other department believing we all earn pots of dough....at least 50% of us are on the new post 1997 contract. BA published very deceiving figures; the figures they used are the average a cabin crew member costs including company NI and pension contributions. The figures they used for Easyjet/Virgin did not. Subsequently, an Easyjet crew member who flies their maximum 900 block hours a year earns MORE than an equivalent crew member at BA.
Why I have voted YES, and will support any action by UNITE.
In the last 2 years an incompetent management team has cost BA billions:
* Openskies;
* Virgin passenger price fixing debacle;
* T5 disaster;
* Cargo price fixing fines;
* Fuel hedging too high;
* Not reacting to market conditions (i.e. not reducing surplus supply soon enough);
* Management redundancies which cost on average £100,000 per separated staff member;
* Continued management bonuses, when all other ranks have been asked to give back;
* A chairman who will receive his "unpaid leave" back as a bonus in 2011,
* Everytime BF sends out a letter to cabin crew this costs approx £2,500 a mailshot. This is well over what I earn in a good month.
The list goes on.
Good luck working during the strike. It won't be easy during or after.
Last edited by Muizenberg; 30th Jan 2010 at 19:57.
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Muizenberg
Your post is sincere and well written and I agree with you re all the money losing shambles BA have stumbled through in recent times.
BUT you still dont mention the financial trouble we are in right now, be it BAs fault or not. Or the state of the airline industry right now.
Why is a strike the only way? Why cripple an almost dead horse now? Why cut off your nose to spite your face when you yourself say you are willing to take on a lot of the proposed changes?
Your post is sincere and well written and I agree with you re all the money losing shambles BA have stumbled through in recent times.
BUT you still dont mention the financial trouble we are in right now, be it BAs fault or not. Or the state of the airline industry right now.
Why is a strike the only way? Why cripple an almost dead horse now? Why cut off your nose to spite your face when you yourself say you are willing to take on a lot of the proposed changes?
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Muizenberg, lots of interesting points.
I will just pick you up on this point, and I don't blame you for your misunderstanding, I blame BASSA.
It's a little known fact that before the deadline there was a share offer on the table for all staff groups if they could negotiate a solution before the deadline.
Since BASSA were at that time still not turning up for meetings or refusing to sit in the same room as the CC89 reps, I'm not surprised they didn't tell you that they had blown that particular opportunity.
BA didn't just impose "whenever it wanted", it did it as a last ditch resort after trying for months and months and months to get a sensible response out of BASSA who were still at the "no no no footstomp hissyfit" stage, and not at the stage you are at now, ie "I am more than prepared to meet BA halfway on issues." - BASSA are still not at that point.
They could have negotiated one down, bidding for longhaul, a share scheme and protections against New Fleet. Looking back, they have really squandered their chances, what a waste.
Originally Posted by Muizenberg
I am all for consensual change. An agreement that we as a community give back at time when BA is in financial hardship; but get rewarded when the company prospers (a deal which our Flight Colleagues have received). BA have not once offer us any reward for what we give up (once the company is back in profit).
It's a little known fact that before the deadline there was a share offer on the table for all staff groups if they could negotiate a solution before the deadline.
Since BASSA were at that time still not turning up for meetings or refusing to sit in the same room as the CC89 reps, I'm not surprised they didn't tell you that they had blown that particular opportunity.
The biggest issue is IMPOSITION, if BA can just institute a change whenever it wants, what will be next?
They could have negotiated one down, bidding for longhaul, a share scheme and protections against New Fleet. Looking back, they have really squandered their chances, what a waste.
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Muizenberg
You Stated at length that you agree with some of what BA are doing and tend to agree with it. However you also state that you are voting yes for many many reasons which are not directly connected with the current dispute.
I too am frustrated at the disgraceful waste of money the recent difficulties have caused, but those difficulties have nothing to do with the BASSA/ BA dispute.
Please be clear on exactly what you are taking action for. You seem to be justifying a no vote................
Fly safe
You Stated at length that you agree with some of what BA are doing and tend to agree with it. However you also state that you are voting yes for many many reasons which are not directly connected with the current dispute.
I too am frustrated at the disgraceful waste of money the recent difficulties have caused, but those difficulties have nothing to do with the BASSA/ BA dispute.
Please be clear on exactly what you are taking action for. You seem to be justifying a no vote................
Fly safe
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muizenberg i know some managers can be hard work but time off for a funeral is down to next of kin ,far as i know .the bad snow couple of weeks ago ,,where i work any one who did not make it in had leave deducted . did that apply to all cc in similar position ? u aint hard done by for the sake of everyone else in ba just get on with your job and do it with a smile! just noticed your comment about it not being easy during and after a strike what on earth do you mean ?
Last edited by Finnster; 30th Jan 2010 at 21:18.
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miuzenberg
to quote you
``Good luck working during the strike. It won't be easy during or after.``
If there is a strike you won`t be working after !!! At least not to the terms and conditons you have now and BASSA could have negotiated had they made a reasonable and sensible effort. You will do well to note the posts made about the 90 day rule should BASSA either win or loose the court battle.
Please look at all the consequences of voting yes why you are voting at all and read the balanced last 3 posts by your colleagues,
``Good luck working during the strike. It won't be easy during or after.``
If there is a strike you won`t be working after !!! At least not to the terms and conditons you have now and BASSA could have negotiated had they made a reasonable and sensible effort. You will do well to note the posts made about the 90 day rule should BASSA either win or loose the court battle.
Please look at all the consequences of voting yes why you are voting at all and read the balanced last 3 posts by your colleagues,
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The so-called "ninety day rule"
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen!
So many contributors are getting their knickers in a twist over this so-called "ninety-day rule" - and all for nothing.
Has anyone repeat anyone seen this mentioned in any official communication made or published by British Airways management in connection with this dispute?
Until Willie Walsh, or any of his sidekicks, bring the subject up can we perhaps have just a little less hysteria over a simple rumour - for that is what it is at the moment.
So many contributors are getting their knickers in a twist over this so-called "ninety-day rule" - and all for nothing.
Has anyone repeat anyone seen this mentioned in any official communication made or published by British Airways management in connection with this dispute?
Until Willie Walsh, or any of his sidekicks, bring the subject up can we perhaps have just a little less hysteria over a simple rumour - for that is what it is at the moment.
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Muizenberg, a quick reminder of what is on the table, what happened in the past and what might happen in the future is completely irrelevant.
BF letter:
* their current individual terms and conditions
* their current pay, with increment rises for most crew of between two per cent and seven per cent this financial year and next
* their average variable pay (allowances) through the offer of a monthly standard payment
* their options for voluntary lifestyle changes, either through changing fleets at Heathrow or transferring to part time
* a commitment from the company to keep talking with Unite about how it recruits new crew .
* full union representation with an offer from the company for Unite to represent future crew.
BF letter:
* their current individual terms and conditions
* their current pay, with increment rises for most crew of between two per cent and seven per cent this financial year and next
* their average variable pay (allowances) through the offer of a monthly standard payment
* their options for voluntary lifestyle changes, either through changing fleets at Heathrow or transferring to part time
* a commitment from the company to keep talking with Unite about how it recruits new crew .
* full union representation with an offer from the company for Unite to represent future crew.
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Miuzenburg,
I respect your decision to vote Yes. What concerns me is many Yes voters yourself included include the comment about those of us who choose to go into work, as ''good luck it won't be easy coming to work during or after''.
All I can say about that is ANYONE who gives ANYONE a hard time - and that includes both sides of the fence and bullies or tries to make life miserable are the ones who need good luck and need to be worried! We have EGwhatevernumberitis which is a bullying and harassment policy. I don't like the word bullying bandied around all the time however this behaviour is classed as bullying and there is a formal policy. No one should have to be bullied, regarded a ''scab'' or have unfair treatment or be ''sent to coventry'' (rather be sent to New York!
) because of not going on strike or volunteering to work.
We all have our own reasons and decisions. We are all adults and it is something some people actually have not grasped yet. Despite some having been adults for some time
I would like to say I do worry that Yes voters and strikers will bring the company down with them and have expressed my opinions on what could happen on here. It is my opinion (and shared by many crew and non-crew alike!) However, I would not bully a striker as we all make our decisions and many have been misled.
Also FINALLY, for the sake of CRM and safety will BOTH SIDES of the Flight Deck door whether you are a Yes-er, a No-er or Flight crew who back us or flight crew who are against a strike and are volunteering, by all means discuss the situation and disagree but don't forget, even if we disagree with our views; can we both respect each other and maintain CRM. I do worry that this will be lost (Strikers bullying us non strikers, flight crew bullying crew as they think it's their fault we went on strike, cabin crew bullying flight crew because they are worried about their jobs and have volunteered etc etc)
Let's stand together and look after each other.
I respect your decision to vote Yes. What concerns me is many Yes voters yourself included include the comment about those of us who choose to go into work, as ''good luck it won't be easy coming to work during or after''.
All I can say about that is ANYONE who gives ANYONE a hard time - and that includes both sides of the fence and bullies or tries to make life miserable are the ones who need good luck and need to be worried! We have EGwhatevernumberitis which is a bullying and harassment policy. I don't like the word bullying bandied around all the time however this behaviour is classed as bullying and there is a formal policy. No one should have to be bullied, regarded a ''scab'' or have unfair treatment or be ''sent to coventry'' (rather be sent to New York!
) because of not going on strike or volunteering to work.We all have our own reasons and decisions. We are all adults and it is something some people actually have not grasped yet. Despite some having been adults for some time
I would like to say I do worry that Yes voters and strikers will bring the company down with them and have expressed my opinions on what could happen on here. It is my opinion (and shared by many crew and non-crew alike!) However, I would not bully a striker as we all make our decisions and many have been misled.
Also FINALLY, for the sake of CRM and safety will BOTH SIDES of the Flight Deck door whether you are a Yes-er, a No-er or Flight crew who back us or flight crew who are against a strike and are volunteering, by all means discuss the situation and disagree but don't forget, even if we disagree with our views; can we both respect each other and maintain CRM. I do worry that this will be lost (Strikers bullying us non strikers, flight crew bullying crew as they think it's their fault we went on strike, cabin crew bullying flight crew because they are worried about their jobs and have volunteered etc etc)
Let's stand together and look after each other.
* Openskies;
* Virgin passenger price fixing debacle;
* T5 disaster;
* Cargo price fixing fines;
* Fuel hedging too high;
* Not reacting to market conditions (i.e. not reducing surplus supply soon enough);
* Management redundancies which cost on average £100,000 per separated staff member;
* Continued management bonuses, when all other ranks have been asked to give back;
* A chairman who will receive his "unpaid leave" back as a bonus in 2011,
* Everytime BF sends out a letter to cabin crew this costs approx £2,500 a mailshot. This is well over what I earn in a good month.
* Virgin passenger price fixing debacle;
* T5 disaster;
* Cargo price fixing fines;
* Fuel hedging too high;
* Not reacting to market conditions (i.e. not reducing surplus supply soon enough);
* Management redundancies which cost on average £100,000 per separated staff member;
* Continued management bonuses, when all other ranks have been asked to give back;
* A chairman who will receive his "unpaid leave" back as a bonus in 2011,
* Everytime BF sends out a letter to cabin crew this costs approx £2,500 a mailshot. This is well over what I earn in a good month.
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Heard BA have struggled to find VOLS now are turning to temps many telling them to FO so Willie and Billy you are running out of ideas. Feb 1st will soon be here i'll leave you with the words of Cheryl Cole
Anything that´s worth having
Is sure enough worth fighting for
Quitings out of the question
When it gets tough gotta fight some more
We gotta fight fight fight fight fight for this job
We gotta fight fight fight fight fight for this job
We gotta fight fight fight fight fight for this job
Its worth having its worth fighting for
I just put the X in the box and it's a YES box thought you would like to know
Anything that´s worth having
Is sure enough worth fighting for
Quitings out of the question
When it gets tough gotta fight some more
We gotta fight fight fight fight fight for this job
We gotta fight fight fight fight fight for this job
We gotta fight fight fight fight fight for this job
Its worth having its worth fighting for
I just put the X in the box and it's a YES box thought you would like to know
Last edited by Watersidewonker; 30th Jan 2010 at 21:52. Reason: X in the box YES YES YES