British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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BA is about to report the largest loss in its history - of course BASSA and their militant members think it's all hipocrisy - if management hadn't fuel fixed or rushed through to open T5 things would have been fine.
vanHorck - Crew will be working to CAA Scheme in that case - agreements will be thrown out the window.
Get Smart - Hopefully it won't be the mislead and confused crew who get sacked for getting early flights and don't know what to do - let it be some of the LOUD voices from the other forums. I'm sure if they start sacking people they will be the first ones back to work.
vanHorck - Crew will be working to CAA Scheme in that case - agreements will be thrown out the window.
Get Smart - Hopefully it won't be the mislead and confused crew who get sacked for getting early flights and don't know what to do - let it be some of the LOUD voices from the other forums. I'm sure if they start sacking people they will be the first ones back to work.
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A friend of mine who is a member of CF let me have a look at some of the posts. It seems to be the same old names posting and it's the same old dribble.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
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Midman
Well you could look at £5.80 as the minimum wage and multiply that from check in to check out, minus a negotiated position on when you are on or off clock down route, multiplied by the head count, to give a figure that BA cold not legally go below, for reducing staff costs. Oh and pension, ST and reducing holiday to 20 days. If BA was still loosing money, then you would have to look elsewhere.
However, BA do set standards when recruiting and those standards demand a higher salary and or better working conditions.
However, BA do set standards when recruiting and those standards demand a higher salary and or better working conditions.
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I am still struggling to see haw you could just end BASSA, by bringing in a new fleet? BASSA are about 40 people in 13000. Sack the reps as it will be cheaper than sacking and re recruiting 13000. Admittedly, you would be liable for almost unlimited damages because law protects individuals from this action, but it would be a one off extraordinary cost.
But you would then see that it is not BASSA and you would be a fair few quid out of pocket and the alleged declining membership would probably be growing again.
This is the problem with this thread. There are some incredibly intelligent people on it, but it is like a pack hunt at times. Clearly their is a lack of trust between BASSA members and BA. That trust needs to be built up.
Good ideas from individuals that are accepted on both sides build up trust. Some of the pro strike members of this thread were engaged in debate. Just because they did not say I have changed my mind and agree 100% with everything you have said, does not mean that there points are not worth listening to.
There have been more than a few insults thrown at the abbreviation BASSA. Now individual members may see that as personally directed at them. Why would you then come to Pprune to be insulted? So they go and this thread serves no purpose.
But you would then see that it is not BASSA and you would be a fair few quid out of pocket and the alleged declining membership would probably be growing again.
This is the problem with this thread. There are some incredibly intelligent people on it, but it is like a pack hunt at times. Clearly their is a lack of trust between BASSA members and BA. That trust needs to be built up.
Good ideas from individuals that are accepted on both sides build up trust. Some of the pro strike members of this thread were engaged in debate. Just because they did not say I have changed my mind and agree 100% with everything you have said, does not mean that there points are not worth listening to.
There have been more than a few insults thrown at the abbreviation BASSA. Now individual members may see that as personally directed at them. Why would you then come to Pprune to be insulted? So they go and this thread serves no purpose.
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Litebulbs,
yes BA have decided that the premium that they can afford and believe is necessary to attract the right calibre of people is Market rate + 10%.
That s what the company has decided, it's not for the employees to decide what standard of recruit is acceptable.
We're about to lose best part of a billion quid this year and bassa are proposing increased costs! Who in their right minds could trust their judgement?
yes BA have decided that the premium that they can afford and believe is necessary to attract the right calibre of people is Market rate + 10%.
That s what the company has decided, it's not for the employees to decide what standard of recruit is acceptable.
We're about to lose best part of a billion quid this year and bassa are proposing increased costs! Who in their right minds could trust their judgement?
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Out of curiosity, what different "standards" does BA use when recruiting compared to other airlines?
Are they more demanding regarding educational history, fitness, etc.?
I certainly wasn't aware of this.
Are they more demanding regarding educational history, fitness, etc.?
I certainly wasn't aware of this.
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Litebulbs, you don't sack 13000 people, you issue 90 days notice of a change of contract.
Ask Bassa what their reaction to that would be.
I'd be interested to hear.
Anyway, I don't think it will get that far, the strike will fail within 48 hours.
Bassa will then be toothless.
Ask Bassa what their reaction to that would be.
I'd be interested to hear.
Anyway, I don't think it will get that far, the strike will fail within 48 hours.
Bassa will then be toothless.
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midman
Serving notice does not get rid of BASSA. The same people will be there. Yes that would solve the financial problem of crew cost however. What would be the result of that action though?
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The strike could have failed within 48 hours, but with the measures that BA are taking to reduce the impact allows the blame for the strike failing, to be directed elsewhere.
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More spin than a washing machine!
Fuel price:- Offset by successful hedging before and after the event. Not a money making/losing exercise, simply providing the ability to forward plan fuel costs.
Price fixing:- The cost of the fines will be offset by excess profit made during the period the 'fixed' prices were in place. One cannot take the fines as a negative revenue when you don't know the positive revenue stream.
Golden handshake:- Contractual obligation for senior/board level managers.
T5:- BAA acceded to the companies demand that they take accountability. T5 Rent has been reduced to take into account the initial losses. All comes under the banner of 'streamlining'.
CEO Basic salary! :- He is the CEO of a FTSE 100 blue chip company. At that salary pretty cheap in comparison to his peers around the industry.
Revenue lost due to Christmas dispute:- Due to Unite/BASSA's inability to negotiate those cost must and will be laid at the door of the Union and thus accounted for by an increase in the required savings of the CC department.
Pension deficit:- BASSA are claiming the company is responsible for the stock market crash now are they? The Pension fund is invested in the stock market which, certainly in specific areas, has suffered the most over the past two years! If the stocks rally to the original figures and Gordo Brown hadn't robbed the funds of £110 billion over the past 11 years the fund would be healthy. Non argument.
Imposed removal of Crew:- Only a loss if BASSA seek to destroy the company and demand 'working 1 down' payments. Something that will NOT sit well with the rest of the company!
If BASSA can spin so much rubbish into a small paragraph the what chance does the rest of the document have?
Answer, none.
Fuel price hedging misjudgment = GBP400m
Price fixing amount set aside for Fines = GBP350m
Class action law suit settlement over fuel surcharge = 203m
Cargo price fixing fines Canada = GBP150m
Cargo price fixing fines Australia = GBP2.5m
Golden handshake for those held accountable for price fixing = GBP1.6m
T5 opening debacle = GBP100m
CEO Basic Salary = GBP750k + bonuses
Revenue already lost due to Christmas dispute = GBP20m
Pension deficit = GBP3.7 billion
Imposed removal of a cabin crew member = GBP31m
Price fixing amount set aside for Fines = GBP350m
Class action law suit settlement over fuel surcharge = 203m
Cargo price fixing fines Canada = GBP150m
Cargo price fixing fines Australia = GBP2.5m
Golden handshake for those held accountable for price fixing = GBP1.6m
T5 opening debacle = GBP100m
CEO Basic Salary = GBP750k + bonuses
Revenue already lost due to Christmas dispute = GBP20m
Pension deficit = GBP3.7 billion
Imposed removal of a cabin crew member = GBP31m
Price fixing:- The cost of the fines will be offset by excess profit made during the period the 'fixed' prices were in place. One cannot take the fines as a negative revenue when you don't know the positive revenue stream.
Golden handshake:- Contractual obligation for senior/board level managers.
T5:- BAA acceded to the companies demand that they take accountability. T5 Rent has been reduced to take into account the initial losses. All comes under the banner of 'streamlining'.
CEO Basic salary! :- He is the CEO of a FTSE 100 blue chip company. At that salary pretty cheap in comparison to his peers around the industry.
Revenue lost due to Christmas dispute:- Due to Unite/BASSA's inability to negotiate those cost must and will be laid at the door of the Union and thus accounted for by an increase in the required savings of the CC department.
Pension deficit:- BASSA are claiming the company is responsible for the stock market crash now are they? The Pension fund is invested in the stock market which, certainly in specific areas, has suffered the most over the past two years! If the stocks rally to the original figures and Gordo Brown hadn't robbed the funds of £110 billion over the past 11 years the fund would be healthy. Non argument.
Imposed removal of Crew:- Only a loss if BASSA seek to destroy the company and demand 'working 1 down' payments. Something that will NOT sit well with the rest of the company!
If BASSA can spin so much rubbish into a small paragraph the what chance does the rest of the document have?
Answer, none.
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UNITE figures
FlexSRS wrote:
Let's look at some of the figures.
CEO Basic Salary = GBP750k + bonuses
So? A CEO of a large corporate must be paid well, and arguably Willie Walsh is paid a lot less than some other CEOs.
Revenue already lost due to Christmas dispute = GBP20m
And who caused this?
Pension deficit = GBP3.7 billion
Will going on strike improve BA's chances of closing this deficit?
Two-year pay freeze offered by cabin crew = GBP28m Refused by BA
This is just a lie by UNITE. BA proposed a two-year pay freeze in June 2009 which was rejected by a mass CC meeting but which UNITE was prepared to consider. See BBC NEWS | Business | BA staff reject cost-cutting plan.
And furthermore, this pay freeze isn't just about cabin crew, most of the rest of BA's employees won't be getting a pay rise either.
CEO Basic Salary = GBP750k + bonuses
So? A CEO of a large corporate must be paid well, and arguably Willie Walsh is paid a lot less than some other CEOs.
Revenue already lost due to Christmas dispute = GBP20m
And who caused this?
Pension deficit = GBP3.7 billion
Will going on strike improve BA's chances of closing this deficit?
Two-year pay freeze offered by cabin crew = GBP28m Refused by BA
This is just a lie by UNITE. BA proposed a two-year pay freeze in June 2009 which was rejected by a mass CC meeting but which UNITE was prepared to consider. See BBC NEWS | Business | BA staff reject cost-cutting plan.
And furthermore, this pay freeze isn't just about cabin crew, most of the rest of BA's employees won't be getting a pay rise either.
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Diplome
All airlines require a high standard of recruiting for crew. Maybe not qualification wise like pilots, but in inter-personal, communication, customer service and team work skills. Or they should do anyway! BA is obviously a ''full service global premium airline'' so theoretically staff recruited should be the highest calibre of staff. Not saying easyjet or charters shouldn't be either as I have flown with those airlines and to be honest ''same ---- different uniform'' springs to mind!! 
Infact some of the best service examples I have seen have come from charters/Virgin! Many could teach some colleagues at BA a lesson BUT....
We have a lot of good staff who are expected to deliver a premium product to First and Club passengers. So realistically this should be reflected in the conditions/pay. It's my opinion minimum wage should not be paid to BA crew. Infact I do not believe minimum wage should be paid to ANY airlines cabin crew. Some will say ''it is unqualified job'' etc but it can be demanding work and has a high safety element in it with regards to what we are trained in. Whilst I am a No voter, I do believe ALL airline cabin crew deserve a decent wage (no I am not saying we should all be on the old contract still!!) many do, some, in my personal opinion, are paid under what they should.
That is, of course, not for me to decide but after all this ramble, my point is, cabin crew, not least of all BA cabin crew should be paid a decent wage, well above minimum wage for the UK and BA crew should be paid above market rate to award crew for delivering a premium service. I think it should be the same for Virgin, as they are a premium airline but ask good ol' socialist Richard what he thinks of his staff and how they should be paid!
And yes I am a no voter!!
Infact some of the best service examples I have seen have come from charters/Virgin! Many could teach some colleagues at BA a lesson BUT....We have a lot of good staff who are expected to deliver a premium product to First and Club passengers. So realistically this should be reflected in the conditions/pay. It's my opinion minimum wage should not be paid to BA crew. Infact I do not believe minimum wage should be paid to ANY airlines cabin crew. Some will say ''it is unqualified job'' etc but it can be demanding work and has a high safety element in it with regards to what we are trained in. Whilst I am a No voter, I do believe ALL airline cabin crew deserve a decent wage (no I am not saying we should all be on the old contract still!!) many do, some, in my personal opinion, are paid under what they should.
That is, of course, not for me to decide but after all this ramble, my point is, cabin crew, not least of all BA cabin crew should be paid a decent wage, well above minimum wage for the UK and BA crew should be paid above market rate to award crew for delivering a premium service. I think it should be the same for Virgin, as they are a premium airline but ask good ol' socialist Richard what he thinks of his staff and how they should be paid!
And yes I am a no voter!!
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SlideBustle
My apologies if I created the impression that I was endorsing CC only being worthy of minimum wage.
I read the initial post as a statement asserting that BA recruit to a higher standard than other airlines..something I wasn't aware of.
My mistake.
I read the initial post as a statement asserting that BA recruit to a higher standard than other airlines..something I wasn't aware of.
My mistake.
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No worries, Diplome. I know exactly what you meant. I know you didn't mean that but I just got abit on a ramble as some people have said (on various forums) that this new fleet will be on minimum wage (I do not know if this is true or not btw)
As for your Original post, as far as I am aware all airlines recruit to a high standard. Although in reality, some airlines may have more rigid/rigerous internal scoring criterea for recruiting staff... If you know what I mean. But qualification wise and skill wise, all airlines require the same/similar standards as far as I know.
My previous post was more on why I think BA should be paid a premium - being a global premium airline (which Bill Francis has claimed he will even on New Fleet - market rate plus 10%) Although like I said, it is my opinion we are all cabin crew (all airlines) we all have good and bad in us (like any job/any profession etc) and we all do a demanding job and play an important part in safety onboard with our training and of course service so we deserve a ''reasonable'' salary above minimum wage. Not asking for riches but you all know what I mean, I hope
As for your Original post, as far as I am aware all airlines recruit to a high standard. Although in reality, some airlines may have more rigid/rigerous internal scoring criterea for recruiting staff... If you know what I mean. But qualification wise and skill wise, all airlines require the same/similar standards as far as I know.
My previous post was more on why I think BA should be paid a premium - being a global premium airline (which Bill Francis has claimed he will even on New Fleet - market rate plus 10%) Although like I said, it is my opinion we are all cabin crew (all airlines) we all have good and bad in us (like any job/any profession etc) and we all do a demanding job and play an important part in safety onboard with our training and of course service so we deserve a ''reasonable'' salary above minimum wage. Not asking for riches but you all know what I mean, I hope
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Do BA recruit to a higher standard than the low cost carriers?
Five years ago my niece thought it was unlikely BA would employ her as a flight attendant because she does not speak a second language fluently.
She applied to three low cost carriers whom all rejected her (she applied to one of them twice). Before giving up she applied to BA who employed her as a f/a without any problems.
Five years ago my niece thought it was unlikely BA would employ her as a flight attendant because she does not speak a second language fluently.
She applied to three low cost carriers whom all rejected her (she applied to one of them twice). Before giving up she applied to BA who employed her as a f/a without any problems.
Last edited by Jpax; 30th Jan 2010 at 14:42. Reason: spelling