British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[GearUp CheerUp]

. We know that our jobs are on the line. If BA gets away with their imposition, what do you think will happen in the future?

You really dont get it do you?

BA have imposed because Bassa refused to negotiate.

Can you explain why you feel that Bassa should be the only ones who do not need to take their share of cuts, when all the rest of BA have done so?

You know what?, Ive now decided that I hope this does come to a strike. If theres a climb down now, we'll only have the same nonsense from Bassa in a year or two, thats if the company survives that long. At least if theres a strike now, the Bassa heirarchy and the militants will be removed and the rest of us can get on with working for BA without the ball and chain of Bassa dragging us down.

You're about to reap the whirlwind - don't say you weren't warned.

[hval]

No response to My Post #2491

MissM,

You have responded to a number of postings that come after my posting (#2491) with the scenario. Am just wondering whether you have read it.

Are you able to see the similarities to the BA and BASSA situation?

Hval

[Snas]

At least if theres a strike now, the Bassa heirarchy and the militants will be removed and the rest of us can get on with working for BA without the ball and chain of Bassa dragging us down.

Alas that may well be true, you do seem to be represented by the least amoung you and your inability to elect sensible, professional and effective representation leaves you exposed to future abuses by a far less sensible and commercially aware management than the one you currently enjoy.

Cuts and changes to protect the company as a whole, shareholders, customers and employees alike have to be accepted and supported. Lose your union now and later on you may find a different economic climate where the squeeze is on to simply to line shareholders pockets, just because they can! -

Any union only has so many shots to fire and to waste one on this issue is foolish, you may well need it later to discover it has gone.

Unions are good, but only good ones, and goodness you may notice it's loss one day and regret all this, lots.

[MissM]

Hval

Is BASSA the only one to blame? BASSA presented proposal which BA more or less refused to look at. BA did not present the best deal NOR did BASSA. There were things in their proposal which I certainly didn't agree to, i.e. pay cut and Middle East B2B's. The proposal was also extremely miscalculated and under the terms that the money should be paid back to IFCE in 2 years, another thing which I didn't agree to either.

Our management has done nothing but lied straight into our faces and there's always been something up their sleeve. I have been here for almost 15 years and I can't think of a time when they have actually been honest to us. You reach out your hand and they take your whole arm. If I could trust our management I wouldn't be voting for a strike and accept the imposition but they will always come back for more.

Here's a scenario:

We call off the ballot and decide not to go ahead with the court hearing next month. Imposition remains and BA wins knowing that they can do anything they like without talking to us.

BA still needs to save another £100 million. They will introduce a separate fleet at LHR and before we know it all of us will be in a redeployment process.

Before anyone says anything about this scenario, the ballot is about the imposition and nothing else. If we give up now we will send a message of being weak and that is when they will knock us down for good. It's a chance to protect my job because if I don't the scenario above will happen which means the end to my career and BA would take that decision for me. If the fight for my job means that I will lose my job at least I would have tried.

[MrBunker]

Originally Posted by MissM

Hval

Is BASSA the only one to blame? BASSA presented proposal which BA more or less refused to look at. BA did not present the best deal NOR did BASSA. There were things in their proposal which I certainly didn't agree to, i.e. pay cut and Middle East B2B's. The proposal was also extremely miscalculated and under the terms that the money should be paid back to IFCE in 2 years, another thing which I didn't agree to either.

Our management has done nothing but lied straight into our faces and there's always been something up their sleeve. I have been here for almost 15 years and I can't think of a time when they have actually been honest to us. You reach out your hand and they take your whole arm. If I could trust our management I wouldn't be voting for a strike and accept the imposition but they will always come back for more.

Here's a scenario:

We call off the ballot and decide not to go ahead with the court hearing next month. Imposition remains and BA wins knowing that they can do anything they like without talking to us.

BA still needs to save another £100 million. They will introduce a separate fleet at LHR and before we know it all of us will be in a redeployment process.

Before anyone says anything about this scenario, the ballot is about the imposition and nothing else. If we give up now we will send a message of being weak and that is when they will knock us down for good. It's a chance to protect my job because if I don't the scenario above will happen which means the end to my career and BA would take that decision for me. If the fight for my job means that I will lose my job at least I would have tried.

MissM,

In the main I agree with the first paragraph. Neither side has covered themselves in glory in any way. But, and this is what perturbs me as it's a response I've seen a few times now, is that your last scenario suggests you're entirely prepared to strike at one of the most economically vulnerable times because a) you don't trust BA and b) something that hasn't yet happened, nor been put on the table as a future plan, might happen.

If someone's prepared to strike on that basis then there is no limit to what the imagination of a febrile community might come up with on an annual basis to call a strike over. It can only be on the issues of fact which are in front of you or, over time, anarchy will take dominion.

MrB

[Nutjob]

Miss M

Before anyone says anything about this scenario, the ballot is about the imposition and nothing else. If we give up now we will send a message of being weak and that is when they will knock us down for goo

Same goes for Willie and BA. If they back down, then they will send a message of being weak and give BASSA free rein to throw their toys out of the cot year after year.

So as far as WW, the Board, your fellow employees and the shareholders are concerned.......BA HAS to win.

If any crew are relying on WW backing down when you send him another "message" then you need to think again. There is ZERO chance of this happening.

You WILL need to go on strike and you WILL need to risk losing your career.

All the best with that - you were warned literally thousands of times on this forum, so don't come crying when you're selling the house and signing-on.

[MissM]

pvmw

No, I haven't made a post about it as I think there is already a discussion about it.

GearUp CheerUp

Please, don't use that kind of attitude or I won't reply to you.

I DON'T think IFCE should be excluded from making any savings. When did I say that?

MrBunker

No, you are absolutely right that you should only vote on the issues of fact and nothing else. If I could trust BA I wouldn't be bothered with the imposition and let it be until the recession is over and deal with it then. Unfortunately, I don't trust them enough to let it be.

[petdemouche]

Maybe RyanAir will be in charge of reviving BA under administration...
Not sure you'll like your new job...

I still remember a book from Soljenitsin (who spent quite some time in the goulags...), he mentionned that before the revolution, commies were complaining in letters about their conditions in detention (too few books to read, only 2-3 pens given per month etc. etc.), he was wondering if they would have loved their own jails...
Moral of the story, you'll only know what you lost once it is gone.

Anyway, at the risk of sounding rude, I have very few sympathy for CC.
I have been badly treated more than once (and trust me, I am usually a "nice" person) by FAs in C, probably because they "had a bad day", which simply shouldn't exist. At the end of the day, you're (over)paid to live with the fear of a crash (if you have it), move a tray around (even in F, service isn't exactly michelin starred), show some safety instructions (unless it's on tape) and finally get taught how to empty a plane -passengers willing- in less than 2 minutes. What a big deal. It gives you the right to take passengers and coworkers as hostages with loosy stikes at the worst timing possible ? To be rude during flights because it's almost impossible to toss you of the company ?
Shame on you.
If you think you deserve more money, or not less money in spite of the economy, go get it somewhere else. If this place doesn't exist, draw your own conclusions.

[The Blu Riband]

BA still needs to save another £100 million. They will introduce a separate fleet at LHR and before we know it all of us will be in a redeployment process.

Before anyone says anything about this scenario, the ballot is about the imposition and nothing else. If we give up now we will send a message of being weak and that is when they will knock us down for good. It's a chance to protect my job because if I don't the scenario above will happen which means the end to my career and BA would take that decision for me. If the fight for my job means that I will lose my job at least I would have tried.

So its really all about the possiblity of being redeployed onto new fleet.

Which is a valid point, except that it's not what you're being ballotted about.

And why , if it is the intention, haven't BA already done it?

[wobble2plank]

Sadly most posters seem to have forgotten the little tickle of a question as to whether or not the imposition was contractual or not?

Depending upon the outcome of the court case which is rapidly approaching then entire discussion of strike, no strike, savings, no savings, New Fleet or not is totally moot.

If Unite lose in February, sure as eggs are eggs, BA will come hunting for damages from Unite for ill thought out and ill judged IA. Where does that leave all of those workers within other industries? I bet they are chuffed as nuts that Unite is backing such a paltry cause as BASSA's.

I wonder how much Unite will be able to donate to Labours election fund then?

[HiFlyer14]

Lurker, you asked:

And what could they have negotiated on?????? I am asking this as I know the pilots did 3 things - and in fact as your are putting yourself forward as part of the new PCCC can I ask you the following questions (open, transparent and honest etc)

1 What would you have negotiated on
2 What concessions would you have sought
3 In your opinion why did HMRC increase our tax by 7p in the £
4 How much could you have saved us below the 7p in the £ and by what means

As you are a potential leader of Crew I await your reply as this is your opportunity in a public arena to put forward your credentials

Sorry, for not getting back sooner - flying sometimes gets in the way! Just back from a long and tiring trip one hour ago - happy to oblige.

The Professional Cabin Crew Council is, as you aware, in early days yet. We were not involved in the HMRC investigation, and consequently it would be unrealistic and misleading to say what would or wouldn’t have been negotiable. What we can tell you is that IF the PCCC had been dealing with this, we would have found out. We would have done our research, we would have worked closely with BALPA, we would have sought assistance and guidance from BA, and we would have sought professional taxation advice.

Armed with that information, we would have then done exactly what BALPA did, and negotiated with HMRC for the best possible rate.

You are absolutely right to ask these kind of questions; this is exactly what our industrial relations needs – members asking questions and getting professional answers. I trust therefore that you have asked the same questions of UNITE as they were the ones involved in the investigation, and I am sure we would all very much appreciate it if you could publish the replies. It would also be helpful to know which parties they worked closely with on this and what kind of professional taxation advice they enlisted.

If you would like to join PCCC then please don’t hesitate to contact us on our email address: [email protected]

I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[L337]

Our management has done nothing but lied straight into our faces and there's always been something up their sleeve. I have been here for almost 15 years and I can't think of a time when they have actually been honest to us. You reach out your hand and they take your whole arm. If I could trust our management I wouldn't be voting for a strike and accept the imposition but they will always come back for more.

Whilst everyone lines up to trash BA Cabin Crew, what almost all outsiders, and allot of BA employees chose to forget is how extraordinarily badly Cabin Crew in BA are managed. As a BA pilot married to CC I get to see it first hand. It is staggeringly bad, and to some extent BA are reaping what they have sowed. Sadly they are also appallingly led by BASSA as well.

All of this has led to a workforce, badly demotivated, and unhappy in almost every conceivable way. You bet changes need to happen, but it would be nice to see BA move away from the mushroom school of management.

All this finger pointing is very easy, but at the same time a finger needs to be pointed at BA management as well. They have not covered themselves in glory.

[Desertia]

MissM,

For the THIRD time I will explain this:

Is BASSA the only one to blame? BASSA presented proposal (sic) which BA more or less refused to look at.

This is a BASSA lie. In response to BA's initial proposals, BASSA came back with their own set of proposals claiming they were worth 150 million or so.

BA had those proposals INDEPENDENTLY audited and the audit deemed them to be around the 54 million mark. So when you say "BA more or less refused to look at them", do you not realise how it sounds? Paying good money to a globally respected audit firm to do a detailed appraisal sounds nothing like "more or less refused to look at them"?

So let's go back to the truth shall we? It is BASSA who refused to even view a presentation on the financial state of the accounts; who threw a fit about a confidentially agreement to avoid looking at the actual company accounts when they were offered; who refused to negotiate once PWC had shredded their ludicrous and overstated savings claim.

BASSA are the liars here. All of the above are easily verifiable.

And worse, BASSA have been repeating this lie on their website, (their own document, which I quoted to you a couple of weeks ago, and which you also ignored) claiming that they offered savings of 175 million! Not only aren't they very good liars, but they can't remember what their previous lies were.

Our management has done nothing but lied straight into our faces and there's always been something up their sleeve. I have been here for almost 15 years and I can't think of a time when they have actually been honest to us. We call off the ballot and decide not to go ahead with the court hearing next month. Imposition remains and BA wins knowing that they can do anything they like without talking to us.

Actually they haven't lied at all. They told BASSA that if there were no negotiations, they would impose the changes. They did. They told BASSA the ballot was flawed and that they would leave themselves open to legal action.
BASSA called the strike. BA took legal action.

BASSA's case is now so weak BA don't NEED to lie. They can tell them everything they intended to do between now and the end of March, and -strike or not- there isn't a damned thing BASSA can do about it. Because they are weak, ineffectual, unprofessional and desperately trying to look after themselves and not their members.

You are simply cannon fodder to them.

BA still needs to save another £100 million. They will introduce a separate fleet at LHR and before we know it all of us will be in a redeployment process.

If that's what their management decide is needed to keep the company in business, then they have everyone's backing. BASSA lost every last iota of credibility with its malicious strike call in December.

If we give up now we will send a message of being weak and that is when they will knock us down for good.

IMHO they are trying to knock BASSA down for good. Because they are controlled with an iron fist by expensive, untrustworthy, troublesome, selfish and dishonest old timers who will do anything to cling on to their outdated, overpriced and poor value packages.

It's a chance to protect my job because if I don't the scenario above will happen which means the end to my career and BA would take that decision for me. If the fight for my job means that I will lose my job at least I would have tried.

You may think you are fighting for your job. If you sincerely think that, then BASSA have succeeded. To the rest of us, you are being sent over the trenches to fight someone else's battle.

I can only recommend you follow the lead of some of your wiser colleagues and consider quitting this hapless union and engaging BA in fruitful conversations about your mutual futures.

In case you haven't noticed, the whole of the company around you is together against BASSA.

Or to paraphrase Loopy Lizzie: "UNITED THEY STAND!".

Now finally: Unless you have any evidence to the contrary, can you stop with the lie that BA did not review BASSA's proposal, and accept the fact that BASSA have been lying about the amount of savings they offered ever since the audit report came out.

And can I suggest you at least explore what the PCCC have to offer rather than listen to the repetitive and destructive nonsense BASSA feed you.

[617sqn]

And worse, BASSA have been repeating this lie on their website quote Desertia




And therein lies the problem.
Bassa do not lie do they?
Any tricky questions get the answer "but it says on Bassa's website."
The brainwashing and bullying is shocking.

[hval]

Miss M - Thank You

Miss M,

Thank you for your detailed response. It is much appreciated, as is the time you are giving to being on this forum.

The details you have provided now give me a better insight as to why you believe you are willing to go on strike. I am not going to respond to those comments until later on (unfortunately I am on duty and shall be for another eight hours). The organisation I am with, we work minimum of fifty hours a week (works out at over 2500 hours annually) and we are on call as well. Don't get paid extra for being on call. Don't get extra for working christmases, public holidays or anything either. The hours exclude breaks and travel time. I don't mind as I knew what I was getting in to when I joined.

A few quick points though, if I may.

1/ If the company is going to be shut down due to being insolvent, shouldn't every one work together to prevent this? BASSA certainly haven't played the game

2/ What are companies for? Aren't they purely for making share holders, or owners, a profit? Do you really believe that you are worth significantly more than your competitors? Your costs are inflicting severe pain for BA and its profits (unfairly so).

3/ Who gets paid to manage the company? Shouldn't they be allowed to manage?

4/ Aren't unions supposed to be for the good of man? With BASSA not playing the game and not cooperating (which has been going on for years) this is not occuring

5/ Please will you tell me more about the BA Management faults and errors. If you wish, email me, rather than post here. I won't put any points you email to me on the web - unless you are happy with me to do so. Please will you give me your side, and if you are able to, BA's side of things.

6/ Ref the BASSA proposals (pay ME B2B etc.), thank you for your honesty.

7/ Are you able to see my points from the scenario I scripted about who runs the firm and why things are that way? After all I would think it awfully unfair if I was paying a lot of money for salaries and less productivity per person than competitiors and not making a profit. In fact, not making a profit to such an extent that we may go bankrupt - but that employee will be rich.

Thank you once again for your time.

Hval

[ottergirl]

....all leave, part time, days off, (MBTs) cancelled from 1st March.

(my bold)

Just to clarify, BA can not cancel part-time blocks as the individuals are not employed by BA during those periods. They can only control the parts where you are employed by them! Thats not to say that one couldn't volunteer to give up that time in a 'willing to work' format if one chose. So cabin crew who are for example 50% or 33% may well find that a strike has no impact on their working days.

[wascrew]

I think the attempt was to send a message to MISSM who despite all her posts and alledged commitment is hoping that she will be on a part-time week and/or days off instead of having to put into practice what she preaches and actually have the guts to go on strike which i pressume she will be voting for! As previously posted there are many cabin crew who will be hoping for the same cowardly outcome or go sick rather than actually strike!

[ottergirl]

Thanks L337

how extraordinarily badly Cabin Crew in BA are managed

appallingly led by BASSA as well

for you have summed up the situation succintly! In a nutshell, between a rock and a hard place!

All my own views as ever.

[GearUp CheerUp]

GearUp CheerUp

Please, don't use that kind of attitude or I won't reply to you.

I DON'T think IFCE should be excluded from making any savings. When did I say that?

What attitide is that then? Just stating the stark truth that Bassa are going down and, if you dont detatch yourself from them, then you're going down with them.

Reply or not, I really couldn't be bothered either way. What matters is that BA are setting out to destroy Bassa and have the backing of the board, the shareholders, the general public and most of the rest of the employees of the company. This would not have been necessary if your union had not refused to negotiate / offered up a savings plan with 1/3 of the value claimed by Bassa.

If your dispute with BA had been genuine, Id have backed you to the hilt, as it is, I have this morning volunteered to step in and do your job for you, should it come to a strike.

[Desertia]

how extraordinarily badly Cabin Crew in BA are managed

This is the crux of the dispute, surely? BA want to stop BASSA managing cabin crew. They want to manage them themselves.

And, thank heavens, it would appear this is one battle they are more than capable of winning now.

12 days to go before the faecal matter really hits the air circulation apparatus.