British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ the heavy heavy
Wow! The same course as me. Was there a hvitlegging on you cocaine addiction course!
I apologise. That was a really bad joke. I am shocked and surprised at how CC really believe that they have actually had survival trainng. Actually that is wrong of me to say that as they obviously have, just not to the same standards as many others.
Evening Miss M, I trust you have had a good day. Really do not mean to denigrate what training you have had. I know I certainly do not have the caring skills you have. Spending too long in jungles, deserts and such like places tends to do that to you. I tend to be blunt and truthful.
Hval
artic survival school or the cac course will help me prepare
I apologise. That was a really bad joke. I am shocked and surprised at how CC really believe that they have actually had survival trainng. Actually that is wrong of me to say that as they obviously have, just not to the same standards as many others.
Evening Miss M, I trust you have had a good day. Really do not mean to denigrate what training you have had. I know I certainly do not have the caring skills you have. Spending too long in jungles, deserts and such like places tends to do that to you. I tend to be blunt and truthful.
Hval
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MissM,
we already have passed most of it dear, what do you think we do at the start of our sep, Clue- it looks a lot like the exam you do at the end of yours! Med and a few things need to be added but I think we will cope.
Nobody demeaning your training or your job. We just to refuse to accept the portrayal of your courses as a Tom Wolfe novel, sorry.
It's not everybody v cc, it's everybody v bassa. I'm looking forward to meeting the cc during the strike, shaking them warmly by the hand and getting on with rebuilding our trust in each other and the customers trust in us all!
Your attendance, frankly, not required, in fact maybe your non attendance is the shot in the arm this company needs!
we already have passed most of it dear, what do you think we do at the start of our sep, Clue- it looks a lot like the exam you do at the end of yours! Med and a few things need to be added but I think we will cope.
Nobody demeaning your training or your job. We just to refuse to accept the portrayal of your courses as a Tom Wolfe novel, sorry.
It's not everybody v cc, it's everybody v bassa. I'm looking forward to meeting the cc during the strike, shaking them warmly by the hand and getting on with rebuilding our trust in each other and the customers trust in us all!
Your attendance, frankly, not required, in fact maybe your non attendance is the shot in the arm this company needs!
Heavy Heavy
I'm of the opinion that there was no problem to be fixed when I left - 1983 - BALPA had sorted them all out, remember we had strikes, too.
............and don't you worry about working for my pension, I worked for my own, thank you, 'tis not my lot that has squandered it away, or demanded the sort of salaries that now put it in jeopardy.
DaDog / TopBunk / 28L ......... thank you for the update, nothing new, pilots have worked as C.C. in the past when Hamble over-produced - or BOAC reduced the demand, I forget which. Doesn't matter now.
Best of luck, my crystal ball is not too clear, but if the likes of PanAm, Eastern, Swissair, Sabena, JAL can go under there is no magic bullet for B.A. that I can see.
Once again, I thank you for leaving us the problem to fix.
............and don't you worry about working for my pension, I worked for my own, thank you, 'tis not my lot that has squandered it away, or demanded the sort of salaries that now put it in jeopardy.
DaDog / TopBunk / 28L ......... thank you for the update, nothing new, pilots have worked as C.C. in the past when Hamble over-produced - or BOAC reduced the demand, I forget which. Doesn't matter now.
Best of luck, my crystal ball is not too clear, but if the likes of PanAm, Eastern, Swissair, Sabena, JAL can go under there is no magic bullet for B.A. that I can see.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 19th Jan 2010 at 23:52.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The framing is interesting....
Its interesting to read posts from BASSA advocates framing Pilots as somehow negative for willing to serve coffee and wine to passengers.
A hesitancy is noted from strike advocates since BA's request for volunteers...and you should hesitate.
BA is more than just the BASSA Cabin Crew. Its Pilots, Co-Pilots, baggage handlers, etc., etc.. All representing workers and families that you are threatening over an issue that the public, and your co-workers, view
as a self-indulgent snit fit.
BA will survive, due to the honor of its realistic employees.
BASSA will "get it" or they won't, but I'm voting for the positive, customer attuned, side of BA.
..and BASSA should be worried about Mr. Walsh's request, should be scrambling for messages to MP's, etc., because his message makes sense, and he is going to do what it takes for his company to survive inspite of you.
A hesitancy is noted from strike advocates since BA's request for volunteers...and you should hesitate.
BA is more than just the BASSA Cabin Crew. Its Pilots, Co-Pilots, baggage handlers, etc., etc.. All representing workers and families that you are threatening over an issue that the public, and your co-workers, view
as a self-indulgent snit fit.
BA will survive, due to the honor of its realistic employees.
BASSA will "get it" or they won't, but I'm voting for the positive, customer attuned, side of BA.
..and BASSA should be worried about Mr. Walsh's request, should be scrambling for messages to MP's, etc., because his message makes sense, and he is going to do what it takes for his company to survive inspite of you.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Out and About
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd just like to add my welcome, and thanks, to any volunteers. Am looking forward to working with, and getting to know you onboard and downroute.
Please be assured that you'll be very well looked after by those of us who, like you, care deeply about our airline and its survival.
And d'you know what? We'll have some fun too!
To any YES voters: Have you got the message yet? This is the end-game. Well for you at least, not for us. BA is way way ahead of you now. Unlike unite/bassa/cc89 BA will soon explain very clearly, the exact consequences of a strike. Choose to ignore that information and you will have only yourselves and your inept union to blame for your unemployment. Your union won't care though. Still, at least you'll be secure in the knowledge that those of us still working for BA will be paying a higher tax on our allowances to help pay for your benefits .... so, there is, after all, something you CAN thank bassa for.
Please be assured that you'll be very well looked after by those of us who, like you, care deeply about our airline and its survival.
And d'you know what? We'll have some fun too!
To any YES voters: Have you got the message yet? This is the end-game. Well for you at least, not for us. BA is way way ahead of you now. Unlike unite/bassa/cc89 BA will soon explain very clearly, the exact consequences of a strike. Choose to ignore that information and you will have only yourselves and your inept union to blame for your unemployment. Your union won't care though. Still, at least you'll be secure in the knowledge that those of us still working for BA will be paying a higher tax on our allowances to help pay for your benefits .... so, there is, after all, something you CAN thank bassa for.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those of you who are thinking of voting for a strike...
A few thoughts from a member of the flying public:
1. The British public will not support you, especially after the fiasco before Christmas. Many industries and professions are feeling the pinch right now and the public perception is that BA CC are actually doing quite well with pay, terms and conditions.
2. You have already done serious damage to BA, whch will only get worse if you strike. Look what has just happened to FlyGlobeSpan and JAL - it could easily happen to you.
3. You may not have noticed, but the commercial aviation industry is having a rough time at the moment, why make it worse and lose customers to other airlines?
4. Your CEO is on the warpath, clearly determined to break union power amongst BA CC, and he appears to be holding all the good cards in his hand. Don't expect any mercy from BA management if you strike and everything goes pear-shaped.
5. It will be your jobs on the line. Those in charge of Unite and BASSA are very comfortably off, thank you very much, and they have nothing to lose - indeed, people who work for Unite are actually paid (by your Union subscriptions!) to organise and enable strike action! But you, on the other hand, have a lot to lose.
6. Nobody wants to see BA fail as a company. There are many other non-CC employees within BA that would also suffer terribly if the company went under. What right have you to take them down with you?
Please ponder these things carefully before you decide to create yet another PR disaster for yourselves and further damage your airline.
1. The British public will not support you, especially after the fiasco before Christmas. Many industries and professions are feeling the pinch right now and the public perception is that BA CC are actually doing quite well with pay, terms and conditions.
2. You have already done serious damage to BA, whch will only get worse if you strike. Look what has just happened to FlyGlobeSpan and JAL - it could easily happen to you.
3. You may not have noticed, but the commercial aviation industry is having a rough time at the moment, why make it worse and lose customers to other airlines?
4. Your CEO is on the warpath, clearly determined to break union power amongst BA CC, and he appears to be holding all the good cards in his hand. Don't expect any mercy from BA management if you strike and everything goes pear-shaped.
5. It will be your jobs on the line. Those in charge of Unite and BASSA are very comfortably off, thank you very much, and they have nothing to lose - indeed, people who work for Unite are actually paid (by your Union subscriptions!) to organise and enable strike action! But you, on the other hand, have a lot to lose.
6. Nobody wants to see BA fail as a company. There are many other non-CC employees within BA that would also suffer terribly if the company went under. What right have you to take them down with you?
Please ponder these things carefully before you decide to create yet another PR disaster for yourselves and further damage your airline.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: EARTH
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Volunteers highly regarded
On the contrary Mr Angry, volunteers are highly regarded in BA, as in Charity work and other cover, so much so that they have been offered various perks in the past as a thank you. The fact that they will continue with their usual jobs and with the fun Cabin Crew positions shows flexibility, committment and aptitude on their part - good for progression. Some Managers have been inundated with volunteers so they will release staff on a systematic, shared basis, so everyone has a chance to fly.
Also the Cabin Crew who replied to the company directly on email to say they would be working were also later asked for their career aspirations, so there might be some fast track new CSD's, Pursers, etc, a good reward for the CC who value their company.
All sounds great and well planned by BA.
Also the Cabin Crew who replied to the company directly on email to say they would be working were also later asked for their career aspirations, so there might be some fast track new CSD's, Pursers, etc, a good reward for the CC who value their company.
All sounds great and well planned by BA.
[QUOTE]However, I think the passengers would sacrifice a premium cabin service during the flight to actually get them to the destination, thoughts customers?/QUOTE]
I think the service on a "volunteer" flight would be better than normal. At least all of the crew would actually want to be there for a change.
I think the service on a "volunteer" flight would be better than normal. At least all of the crew would actually want to be there for a change.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't seen any mention of this:
Perhaps one of the BASSA types could scroll back in the thread and let Malone et al know what has happily been posted in the public domain.
I reckon LaLa must have written that herself on her LA laptop, because it didn't spell check "rumor" as wrong
Oh, and I meant to ask BASSA members; no-one seems to have an accurate idea of how much Malone and her cronies take out of your 15 quid a month. Don't BASSA produce accounts?
Because I think I'd want to know where my money was going, rather than blindly entrust it to a bunch of such proven liars.
In other depressing news for BASSA, the Iberia merger looks like it's pressing on, and - gasp - without their approval!:
I forgot to comment on Tony Woodley's gem in response to the volunteer CC program: “This is a provocative attempt by BA to disrupt negotiations". Hey Tony, what do you think a 
strike call is then, pal?
We also have to check that BALPA, as rumors are suggesting, have achieved a lower increase than crew.
I reckon LaLa must have written that herself on her LA laptop, because it didn't spell check "rumor" as wrong
Oh, and I meant to ask BASSA members; no-one seems to have an accurate idea of how much Malone and her cronies take out of your 15 quid a month. Don't BASSA produce accounts?
Because I think I'd want to know where my money was going, rather than blindly entrust it to a bunch of such proven liars.
In other depressing news for BASSA, the Iberia merger looks like it's pressing on, and - gasp - without their approval!:
Iberia and British Airways could seal their merger agreement as early as February, the Spanish flag carrier's largest shareholder, savings bank Caja Madrid, said on Tuesday.
"We're on the right track. I think February will be decisive for the deal. There's not much left that needs agreeing to, if anything at all," Caja Madrid chairman Miguel Blesa told reporters at a presentation of the savings bank's 2009 results.
"I don't know if it will be (signed) in February but it won't go past March," Blesa added.
Iberia and BA announced a memorandum of understanding in November for a merger to create the world's third largest airline by revenue.
The main stumbling block to the merger will be an agreement on how to address BA's multi-billion pound pension fund deficit.
"We're on the right track. I think February will be decisive for the deal. There's not much left that needs agreeing to, if anything at all," Caja Madrid chairman Miguel Blesa told reporters at a presentation of the savings bank's 2009 results.
"I don't know if it will be (signed) in February but it won't go past March," Blesa added.
Iberia and BA announced a memorandum of understanding in November for a merger to create the world's third largest airline by revenue.
The main stumbling block to the merger will be an agreement on how to address BA's multi-billion pound pension fund deficit.
strike call is then, pal?
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TorC
Message received and understood.
Weekendflyer
1. Sometimes you need to do things without support.
2. Flyglobespan and JAL are not anywhere near the size of BA.
3. I think most of us know about what is happening all around the world but things will get better.
4. Mercy from BA management? We don't even get it in normal situations so why should this be any different?
5. We know that our jobs are on the line. If BA gets away with their imposition, what do you think will happen in the future?
6.That sort of argument could be used for any other job category within BA, or any other company. If the pilots were to call for a ballot and a possible industrial action you could ask them the same question.
Message received and understood.
Weekendflyer
1. Sometimes you need to do things without support.
2. Flyglobespan and JAL are not anywhere near the size of BA.
3. I think most of us know about what is happening all around the world but things will get better.
4. Mercy from BA management? We don't even get it in normal situations so why should this be any different?
5. We know that our jobs are on the line. If BA gets away with their imposition, what do you think will happen in the future?
6.That sort of argument could be used for any other job category within BA, or any other company. If the pilots were to call for a ballot and a possible industrial action you could ask them the same question.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flyglobespan and JAL are not anywhere near the size of BA.
BA flew 33 million passengers to 150 destinations using a fleet of 245 aircraft.
Back to school for you, or are you quoting from the "BASSA Official Airline Guide" where every failed airline is far smaller than "too-big-to-fail BA"?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sometimes you need to do things without support.
MissM
Well done MissM. You have just backed BA management.
After one year of attempting to negotiate with BASSA, who have totally and utterly refused, BA Management, have had enough. They realised if they kept going BA would probably be bankrupt and in the same state as JAL, Globespan and myriad other air transportation companies. Share holders have not been too pleased either. After all who gets paid to manage the company (strategic, day to day etc)? Certainly not BASSA.
Hval
Edited for spelling error
1. Sometimes you need to do things without support
After one year of attempting to negotiate with BASSA, who have totally and utterly refused, BA Management, have had enough. They realised if they kept going BA would probably be bankrupt and in the same state as JAL, Globespan and myriad other air transportation companies. Share holders have not been too pleased either. After all who gets paid to manage the company (strategic, day to day etc)? Certainly not BASSA.
Hval
Edited for spelling error
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: england
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not Bassa's fault!
Miss M
Well done,as a loyal Bassa supporter, for saying that the tax audit could have been handled better.Your words not mine.
Out of curiosity have you said that on crew forum?
If you haven't would you like to do so?
Well done,as a loyal Bassa supporter, for saying that the tax audit could have been handled better.Your words not mine.
Out of curiosity have you said that on crew forum?
If you haven't would you like to do so?
Last edited by 617sqn; 20th Jan 2010 at 06:57.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MissM " I think most of us know about what is happening all around the world but thin
MissM
MissM.
You are totally correct, "things" will get better. But when? Before BA are a defunct company, or after?
I would also agree when you say "most of us know about what is happening". I would, how ever, exclude you and other militant BASSA persons from that statement.
I'll tell you what. Here is a scenario.
You and your family plus some friends own a company and I am employed by you. For years I have been saying "even though you pay my salary and should run the company, I am not going to let you". For many years you let me have my way, including being paid two or three times the market rate, working less hours than any one else and having top of the range expenses. With time you find that your company is less and less productive and starts to lose money. Then a huge, nasty recession hits. Many competitors go to the wall. Not your company though as you have been prudent and have some savings. How ever... you start to make losses; big losses. You try to get me to come around and work with you, but I refuse to talk with you. Your company, your families company and your friends company is getting close to bankruptcy.
What would you do?
Hval
I think most of us know about what is happening all around the world but things will get better.
You are totally correct, "things" will get better. But when? Before BA are a defunct company, or after?
I would also agree when you say "most of us know about what is happening". I would, how ever, exclude you and other militant BASSA persons from that statement.
I'll tell you what. Here is a scenario.
You and your family plus some friends own a company and I am employed by you. For years I have been saying "even though you pay my salary and should run the company, I am not going to let you". For many years you let me have my way, including being paid two or three times the market rate, working less hours than any one else and having top of the range expenses. With time you find that your company is less and less productive and starts to lose money. Then a huge, nasty recession hits. Many competitors go to the wall. Not your company though as you have been prudent and have some savings. How ever... you start to make losses; big losses. You try to get me to come around and work with you, but I refuse to talk with you. Your company, your families company and your friends company is getting close to bankruptcy.
What would you do?
Hval
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe 7.5% of subs go to the senior reps themselves.
roughly 10,000 crew x £150pa x 7.5% = £112,500
Not a bad little earner!!!
Plus, it is written into the Bassa constitution that the reps have total control over expenditure.
Wow
I stand by to be corrected as this is second hand info
roughly 10,000 crew x £150pa x 7.5% = £112,500
Not a bad little earner!!!
Plus, it is written into the Bassa constitution that the reps have total control over expenditure.
Wow
I stand by to be corrected as this is second hand info
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
617sqn
Read my previous posts and you will see that I have said so many times that I don't always agree with everything BASSA does. I think the tax issue has already been mentioned on other forums. I can't understand why I would have to do it because 20 to 30 pounds a month, when our rosters and payslips vary so much from one month to another, won't affect me.
Read my previous posts and you will see that I have said so many times that I don't always agree with everything BASSA does. I think the tax issue has already been mentioned on other forums. I can't understand why I would have to do it because 20 to 30 pounds a month, when our rosters and payslips vary so much from one month to another, won't affect me.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flyglobespan and JAL are not anywhere near the size of BA.
JAL are considerably bigger than BA and I would be fairly certain that their employees would, 2 years ago, have been certain the company couldn't go bankrupt. Globespan were telling the media and their employees the day before that everything was fine, not to do so would have killed forward bookings and driven the airline into bankruptcy far quicker.
If you were to look back over the past decade and factor out the bankruptcy protection that the US carriers have enjoyed then the actual airlines flying today would be quite different. It is only the ability to adapt quickly which enables companies to survive.
The cabin crew are enjoying broadly similar terms to those they had in the 1980's. When an economy return ticket to Manchester could cost up to £500 in and era when landing/navigation fees were cheaper, fuel was cheaper, handling fees were cheaper and taxes were cheaper. Compare that to the squeeze on revenue and thus yield we have now. Can BASSA really justify its approach of 'not listening long enough that the bad men will go away'? Or, 'It's ok coz in a few years it will all be nice and rosy again so we only need to stamp our feet and throw our toys out of the cot until then, then we can tell you all I told you so'?
The cost base of the company compared to the revenue stream is too high. It has been too high for too long. If the cost base is not brought down to a manageable level then investment in new aircraft, routes and personnel cannot take place. If that is the case then, ultimately, the engineering and depreciation and running cost bases start to accelerate out of control as the inability to replace aircraft causes an astronomical increase in running costs.
EasyJet and Ryanair have profited over the past couple of years by cutting costs to the bone and rapidly fluctuating their ticket prices. I don't fora moment suggest that BA go down that route but the cost base MUST be reduced and the department with the biggest overhead to return is IFcE.
Time for change. Time for BASSA to realise that the other departments, the other employees, the traveling public, the general public and, in many cases, the DOT and the Government are not behind what is, in the midst of a recession and the highest unemployment figures for years, a petulant hissy fit over nothing.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MissM said:-
But MissM, you didn't answer his question.
617sqn said:
So, have you?
617sqn
Read my previous posts and you will see that I have said so many times that I don't always agree with everything BASSA does. I think the tax issue has already been mentioned on other forums. I can't understand why I would have to do it because 20 to 30 pounds a month, when our rosters and payslips vary so much from one month to another, won't affect me
Read my previous posts and you will see that I have said so many times that I don't always agree with everything BASSA does. I think the tax issue has already been mentioned on other forums. I can't understand why I would have to do it because 20 to 30 pounds a month, when our rosters and payslips vary so much from one month to another, won't affect me
617sqn said:
Out of curiosity have you said that on crew forum?
If you haven't would you like to do so?
If you haven't would you like to do so?
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: england
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not Bassa's fault!
From my understanding, over on crew forum the LGW crew are quite rightly upset at this tax rise.They have been hit very hard.
Then you get people like Miss M saying that they won't notice it!
The crew are being slated for not sending in enough receipts so it is not Bassa's fault is it?
The fact that so many are proudly spouting that they want to pay extra tax suggests a cover up of Bassa's failings.
Surely if Bassa had done its upmost to prevent it the venom would be directed at the tax man?
I have never heard so many hard liners say that they feel it is right to support the country by paying extra and to stop moaning about it.
Any crew who go against this line of thinking are quickly put down.
Are my understandings correct?
Then you get people like Miss M saying that they won't notice it!
The crew are being slated for not sending in enough receipts so it is not Bassa's fault is it?
The fact that so many are proudly spouting that they want to pay extra tax suggests a cover up of Bassa's failings.
Surely if Bassa had done its upmost to prevent it the venom would be directed at the tax man?
I have never heard so many hard liners say that they feel it is right to support the country by paying extra and to stop moaning about it.
Any crew who go against this line of thinking are quickly put down.
Are my understandings correct?