British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Stoic and DC3
Interesting re the BASSA Rally on Monday.
Normally BASSA are very quick to jump up and down about the excellent turn out, going to great lengths to explain that its been "independently verified" etc, numbers are rapidly posted on their news section and threads are started on all 3 main forums outlining how good the numbers were.
However this time, there is no "news item" and various threads started by people who were not there asking about turnout etc. have been left unanswered to slip down the page and out of site or have gone altogether.
Perhaps one of our BASSA fans can ask the question..................
On another note, there seemed a great deal of apathy amongst the crew on the bus last night, apart from one person, and this must go down as the quote of the day.
Priceless
Normally BASSA are very quick to jump up and down about the excellent turn out, going to great lengths to explain that its been "independently verified" etc, numbers are rapidly posted on their news section and threads are started on all 3 main forums outlining how good the numbers were.
However this time, there is no "news item" and various threads started by people who were not there asking about turnout etc. have been left unanswered to slip down the page and out of site or have gone altogether.
Perhaps one of our BASSA fans can ask the question..................
On another note, there seemed a great deal of apathy amongst the crew on the bus last night, apart from one person, and this must go down as the quote of the day.
I'm voting Yes, because I'm on part time in March, and by the time I come back it will all be over
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On another note, there seemed a great deal of apathy amongst the crew on the bus last night, apart from one person, and this must go down as the quote of the day.
Priceless
I'm voting Yes, because I'm on part time in March, and by the time I come back it will all be over
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Why didn't BA use the detail of the PWC audit to convince the doubters that BASSA's 'proposal' was way off the mark? A breakdown and explanation of why the figures didn't stack up could have put paid to BASSA's 'we offered significant savings but they've been ignored' mantra.
to be fair BA did try to explain the figures on several occasions, but
(and I know well how varied and obscure some info from BA can be , even when it's important) I think it got overshadowed be Bassa's propaganda.
And Bassa do propaganda extremely well, and their drones are very convincing .
And threatening!
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Just wanted to say with regards to some of the comments on here about ''WW demonstrating it only takes 2 days to train cabin crew'' and saying it will show it's not as rigorous as people will have you believe - please... don't lower yourselfs to the BASSA mob. Thanks. I obviously know that cabin crew is not a ''skilled'' job as in pilots, doctors, fireman etc however it isn't just a Nandos job!!
Anyway, I fail to see how they could be compliant with a 2 days course. If they are to be part of the MINIMUM crew complement then they surely must be fully trained in SEP - not just on the aircraft type but on generic SEP and SOPS? I may be wrong but if anyone finds the directive from the CAA saying basic SEP is only 2 days including Avmed then I would like to see it as I would be shocked. Obviously if they were to be surplus to the legal crew complement (like the 5th crew member on the A320 or the 6th on a 757) then I would understand as the minimum crew can complete the other duties should anything arise.
Basic SEP (SOPs, general evac, equipment and emergency procedures, all 5 drills, fire smoke etc) plus the CRM and security is around 1-2 weeks then 1 day for each aircraft type (think it is 2 day for 747) then Avmed is 4 days although to be honest I think they would probably cut the avmed down as not all crew members have to be on the defib (some airlines only have the SCCMs I think) Food hygiene would have to be taken only if they were serving food but then that only takes a few hours.
Oh who knows! I'm not knocking the decision or those of you who are to volunteer - however I don't know how realistically they will put thousands in a few weeks with the lack of availability of trainers, mockups, classrooms and all the admin stuff that goes over our heads but I think the training department will be v.busy!!
Anyway, I fail to see how they could be compliant with a 2 days course. If they are to be part of the MINIMUM crew complement then they surely must be fully trained in SEP - not just on the aircraft type but on generic SEP and SOPS? I may be wrong but if anyone finds the directive from the CAA saying basic SEP is only 2 days including Avmed then I would like to see it as I would be shocked. Obviously if they were to be surplus to the legal crew complement (like the 5th crew member on the A320 or the 6th on a 757) then I would understand as the minimum crew can complete the other duties should anything arise.
Basic SEP (SOPs, general evac, equipment and emergency procedures, all 5 drills, fire smoke etc) plus the CRM and security is around 1-2 weeks then 1 day for each aircraft type (think it is 2 day for 747) then Avmed is 4 days although to be honest I think they would probably cut the avmed down as not all crew members have to be on the defib (some airlines only have the SCCMs I think) Food hygiene would have to be taken only if they were serving food but then that only takes a few hours.
Oh who knows! I'm not knocking the decision or those of you who are to volunteer - however I don't know how realistically they will put thousands in a few weeks with the lack of availability of trainers, mockups, classrooms and all the admin stuff that goes over our heads but I think the training department will be v.busy!!
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Stoic
Hmmm, I too was quoted a figure of around 300 attending last Monday. Probably should not read too much into this statistic however, one senses that perhaps a change is in the air. Let's hope for everyone's sake especially the customer
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@ slidebustle ... I think the training throughput issue was discussed about 50 page back 
To an outsider there would seem to be some potential difficulties; however, I'm sure Mr Walsh and his team have numerous Draft Plans in place for the eventuality, on the evidence seen to date.
We shall all see in the fulness of time, I'm sure. Second-guessing isn't going to clarify anything. This customer just wants to be able to fly with BA, as booked, shortly after Easter - otherwise he'll get a £4k refund from BA and the money [of necessity] goes to a different British carrier.
To an outsider there would seem to be some potential difficulties; however, I'm sure Mr Walsh and his team have numerous Draft Plans in place for the eventuality, on the evidence seen to date.We shall all see in the fulness of time, I'm sure. Second-guessing isn't going to clarify anything. This customer just wants to be able to fly with BA, as booked, shortly after Easter - otherwise he'll get a £4k refund from BA and the money [of necessity] goes to a different British carrier.
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volunteer crew
On ess home page there is a link to the training.
It will be only very basic training and consists of 1 day pre course reading and 20 days in the classroom.
Pilots who have SEP knowledge will get away with a few days depending on their recency
It will be only very basic training and consists of 1 day pre course reading and 20 days in the classroom.
Pilots who have SEP knowledge will get away with a few days depending on their recency
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Oh yes it would make sense only needing a few days for pilots as you guys are already SEP trained in alot of areas in the cabin. But I meant for people like ground staff etc who have not been crew - they would need longer than 2 days!
Twotoneblue - oh forgive me! Have been working hard (doing my 18 hours a week!
) last few days so have cheated a lil' bit and skipped some pages!
Twotoneblue - oh forgive me! Have been working hard (doing my 18 hours a week!
) last few days so have cheated a lil' bit and skipped some pages!
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My Manager told me today that BA have started to contact crew who have just taken VR to see if they would be interested in coming back for a short time.I guess their CRC will be uptodate.
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Desertia
Read properly what I wrote in the very first piece. I did write that BASSA's proposal was extremely miscalculated and they changed their amounts a couple of times. I still can't understand how Middle East B2B would save the company money as rostering two trips separate without paying B2B payment and 3 MBT's is probably cheaper.
Maybe BA spent a huge amount of money on having them reviewed by PWC.
If you cared to read what I wrote you would see that I meant for the time I have been in this company (and probably longer than that) and not only during this dispute.
The whole of the company? It sounds a bit exaggerated to claim that.
I have already stated that BASSA's proposal was extremely miscalculcated!
Read properly what I wrote in the very first piece. I did write that BASSA's proposal was extremely miscalculated and they changed their amounts a couple of times. I still can't understand how Middle East B2B would save the company money as rostering two trips separate without paying B2B payment and 3 MBT's is probably cheaper.
Maybe BA spent a huge amount of money on having them reviewed by PWC.
Actually they haven't lied at all.
In case you haven't noticed, the whole of the company around you is together against BASSA
Now finally: Unless you have any evidence to the contrary, can you stop with the lie that BA did not review BASSA's proposal, and accept the fact that BASSA have been lying about the amount of savings they offered ever since the audit report came out.
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I have already stated that BASSA's proposal was extremely miscalculcated!
Why do you think its OK to strike against the imposition that BA made, having had no other choice?
Why do you feel that Bassa should be exempt from doing its bit in helping out the company (apart from some "extremely miscalculated" proposals, of course), when all other work groups have negotiated changes / cuts?
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Hval
1. Nobody wants BA to close down and I don't blame anyone for trying to protect their lifehood.
2. Pay is not the issue, for the time being, but if you want to discuss it I suppose we always could. I'm not saying that we are worth more than anyone else but this is the deal which BA has for its crew. I was recruited under different terms. The ones who started in 1997 were recruited under different ones. The ones from BCAL and the 70's were too recruited on different terms too.
3. A company should be allowed to manage.
4. Of course they are. BA has its faults. BASSA has its faults. Nobody is perfect but when it comes to choosing, or should I say relying on, between these two BASSA is the winner. It doesn't mean I trust EVERY SINGLE WORD which comes out of our representatives. I read and listen to everything carefully and even the stuff which BA sends us, unlike some crew who throw away everything which comes from them without reading or listening to it.
5. I suppose I could always write something down to you.
6. You are most welcome.
7. I understand your point of view. When it comes to productivity things CANNOT be changed on WW because most crew are working as much as possible. I don't know what it's like at EF or LGW and if changes could be made there.
1. Nobody wants BA to close down and I don't blame anyone for trying to protect their lifehood.
2. Pay is not the issue, for the time being, but if you want to discuss it I suppose we always could. I'm not saying that we are worth more than anyone else but this is the deal which BA has for its crew. I was recruited under different terms. The ones who started in 1997 were recruited under different ones. The ones from BCAL and the 70's were too recruited on different terms too.
3. A company should be allowed to manage.
4. Of course they are. BA has its faults. BASSA has its faults. Nobody is perfect but when it comes to choosing, or should I say relying on, between these two BASSA is the winner. It doesn't mean I trust EVERY SINGLE WORD which comes out of our representatives. I read and listen to everything carefully and even the stuff which BA sends us, unlike some crew who throw away everything which comes from them without reading or listening to it.
5. I suppose I could always write something down to you.
6. You are most welcome.
7. I understand your point of view. When it comes to productivity things CANNOT be changed on WW because most crew are working as much as possible. I don't know what it's like at EF or LGW and if changes could be made there.
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I've just volunteered to help out my cabin crew colleagues and will be happy to go back to my 9-5 day job, no complaints, carry on. Many of my colleagues have done just the same. To Bassa/Unite - if the worst you can come up with is to label your own crew colleagues/union members, any other BA Unite employees the 'S' word via a press release (oh so clever) then bring it on, you've just shown your organisation to be... well.. hmmm ..professional, that's the word!!
Is it true that Unite are losing members from the non crew BA community ?
hmmm ..professional, that's the word!!Is it true that Unite are losing members from the non crew BA community ?
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Raveng
well, I wouldn't like to guess how many non-crew are leaving Unite but I am one of them, withdrew in September - getting lots of missives asking me to pay up though, telling me what good value my subscription is........
Is it true that Unite are losing members from the non crew BA community ?
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GearUp CheerUp
Because imposition is wrong.
For the 100th time I don't think IFCE should be exempted from doing any savings!
Why do you think its OK to strike against the imposition that BA made, having had no other choice?
Why do you feel that Bassa should be exempt from doing its bit in helping out the company (apart from some "extremely miscalculated" proposals, of course), when all other work groups have negotiated changes / cuts?
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MissM, it could be argued that imposition is wrong. However, my wife imposes on me all the time, so I guess I'm used to it. But when the Union has declined to negotiate, what option has BA got? BASSA actually forced BA into imposition, it seems.
As to IFCE savings, I understand virtually everyone else in BA has already offered up savings. The debate is now about "how much" IFCE will offer. And BA needs a LOT more than BASSA was offering, regardless of which set of figures you choose. And those savings won't come from YOU, will they? - your pay remains unchanged. Only new joiners will experience the harsh World of the 21st Century.
As to IFCE savings, I understand virtually everyone else in BA has already offered up savings. The debate is now about "how much" IFCE will offer. And BA needs a LOT more than BASSA was offering, regardless of which set of figures you choose. And those savings won't come from YOU, will they? - your pay remains unchanged. Only new joiners will experience the harsh World of the 21st Century.
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MissM
1. So, just to humour me, how long do you think it is right for the company to allow for negotiations to come to an agreement, when the other side 'just says no'?
2. IF Bassa had proposed the solution that has been imposed, would it have been acceptable to you?
Quote: Why do you think its OK to strike against the imposition that BA made, having had no other choice?
Because imposition is wrong
Because imposition is wrong
2. IF Bassa had proposed the solution that has been imposed, would it have been acceptable to you?
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OK here goes MissM. I do not like imposition either. The imposed crew complements and the service routines that go with it are not brilliant as they have not been trialled. Most of my flights have been fine though, some are not so good but I will just feed it back. I am not going to say let's put 6 crew on a 319 to CDG back on (ok maybe a 4th!) But, we have to accept that in effect the company was forced to do this really, as talks had got nowhere, company losing a large amount of money. Apparently the union were showing ''we're not changing so there'' attitude for 9 months.... how much longer should BA wait, we still would have not made any changes (and therefore no savings) now as where have the new round of talks got to - nowhere! Again! Sound familiar!
I am extremely unhappy with the situation! We all are I think no matter what side of the fence you are on. But, the crux is after the strike what will the union do? If there of course is a BA left. What will going on strike for 12 days achieve? WW is not going to back down. He needs permanent change. It is as simple as that. I agree the ideal way forward is negotiation. Both sides, unfortunately are not budging... however I can see BA's reason they need to save money permanently!! Unite put forward just 1 proposal which hardly saved anything permanently. There are things to add to it. The negotiation table looks very much like table tennis with it going back and forth back and forth with nothing actually being done!!! Because of this, Unite are failing us crew because if it continues BA will have no choice but to impose other changes. And we don't want that!
It is so demorilising at the moment. Really awful!
I am extremely unhappy with the situation! We all are I think no matter what side of the fence you are on. But, the crux is after the strike what will the union do? If there of course is a BA left. What will going on strike for 12 days achieve? WW is not going to back down. He needs permanent change. It is as simple as that. I agree the ideal way forward is negotiation. Both sides, unfortunately are not budging... however I can see BA's reason they need to save money permanently!! Unite put forward just 1 proposal which hardly saved anything permanently. There are things to add to it. The negotiation table looks very much like table tennis with it going back and forth back and forth with nothing actually being done!!! Because of this, Unite are failing us crew because if it continues BA will have no choice but to impose other changes. And we don't want that!
It is so demorilising at the moment. Really awful!