British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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We are the reason the pax come back time and time again.
I am telling you that I have seen the documents that BA want and BASSA have proposed and it is more than fair
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I am sorry but I get so many pax telling me we are the reason they fly with us. 
In fact our surveys show time and time again how wonderful we are. I don't think you have anything to fear about the company being destroyed. I am behind my company but again come to me with a temp solution and I will accept a reduction in pay for the next two years.
BASSA 100%
In fact our surveys show time and time again how wonderful we are. I don't think you have anything to fear about the company being destroyed. I am behind my company but again come to me with a temp solution and I will accept a reduction in pay for the next two years. BASSA 100%
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Well, I've had my sport so I'm off to the bar in a bit but, passengers will tell you whatever you want to hear. It's because you're stood in front of them. I say again, you insult the other tens of thousands of BA staff who make it run.
Why should you get a temporary deal when the rest of the company hasn't? What makes you exempt from all this?
You're not that special. None of us are.
Why should you get a temporary deal when the rest of the company hasn't? What makes you exempt from all this?
You're not that special. None of us are.
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I am sorry but I get so many pax telling me we are the reason they fly with us. In fact our surveys show time and time again how wonderful we are.
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Flying Chick - keep it lit!!!!
Flying Chick - as an ex BA Captain I am completely with you and BASSA. I fail to understand why Carnage, Bunker and the rest are so anti; perhaps because WW has succeeded in the "Divide" part of "Divide and Conquer". How anyone can expect you to take a permanent significant cut when the pilots have a temporary, (and as far as I can see refundable) reduction is pure lunacy.
Whilst I accept there's a case for temporary reductions, it has to be remembered that BA have got themselves into this position by bad management, and as usual, they're expecting the employees to bail them out.
It's just not on.
I believe the current pilots' position is not dissimilar to the way they sold future joiners pensions down the river, and they're now trying to put pressure on you the same way. It's shameful.
Remember WW and Aer Lingus..........
Whilst I accept there's a case for temporary reductions, it has to be remembered that BA have got themselves into this position by bad management, and as usual, they're expecting the employees to bail them out.
It's just not on.
I believe the current pilots' position is not dissimilar to the way they sold future joiners pensions down the river, and they're now trying to put pressure on you the same way. It's shameful.
Remember WW and Aer Lingus..........
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You are quite right AO. There will be no debate because they have delegated thinking to a union rep and wish to be told what to say. They will then post that here.
XT668 - Were you a BA Cityflyer captain perchance?
XT668 - Were you a BA Cityflyer captain perchance?
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The fact is BA cabin crew/cabin service is not and never has been the primary reason for most passengers choosing BA. It is far too variable for that. There can be world class service on one side of the aisle or at one end of the aircraft and the worlds worst at the other.The problem is simply one of attitude and always has been,- right back to pre merger days. The treatment of many passengers,- "punters" to many crew,- especially foreigners , can be woeful and a good number of people avoid BA because they dont want to get on a flight wondering if it is going to be a good day or a bad day. Those cabin crew who think that BA is way ahead of the game at consistent excellence are sadly mistaken. They should take a trip on any of the Far or Middle Eastern carriers or, closer to home, Easyjet, FlyBE and others and understand that it isn't the hard product that is all important but the perceived attitude of the crew. Putting aside the powerful effect of frequent flyer programmes which do seriously distort customer choice ( otherwise who would choose ever to fly on some of the legacy US carriers in particular?) it is simple genuine human warmth that counts.
BA knows a fair bit about people who do fly with them ,although the on board survey results have been seriously distorted for years, but not enough about those who dont -and why they dont. Apart from corporate deals, competitive pricing, routes and frequencies many choose the airline because of high perceptions of operational safety down to flight crew and engineering, so again it's far from all being about the cabin crew.
BA knows a fair bit about people who do fly with them ,although the on board survey results have been seriously distorted for years, but not enough about those who dont -and why they dont. Apart from corporate deals, competitive pricing, routes and frequencies many choose the airline because of high perceptions of operational safety down to flight crew and engineering, so again it's far from all being about the cabin crew.
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XT668
As you're so up to date on things, can you let us all know what changes the engineers agreed to? Then please explain how the pilots' deal is relevant to that and then again, why our CC deal is relevant to both the aforementioned deals.
I know the details of each deal but I'll let you know my thoughts before you reply. They are unrelated! Each department had to make cuts and changes according to the targets that BA set them. Those targets were based on market rate, the need for savings and current efficiency / inefficiency.
The engineers and pilots met their targets. End of. There is no guaranteed clawback of cuts in either deal. They are permanent changes!
According to PWC, BASSA's proposals met only 30% of their target. Now at this point, we can continue to be adult, or you can sneer at PWC's valuation of the BASSA deal like Flying Chick. However, you can deny it's real value all you like - it simply won't change BA's course of action. Which is why I want BASSA to get round the table, poll it's members, accept that the world has changed and then negotiate a deal that will be superior to Willie's impending imposition.
BA's cuts will not affect the large numbers of us on the lower rates of pay too much - we already work that efficiently (especially our crew at LGW) for that re-numeration. It will, however, hit a few very, very hard. That gives me no pleasure. I accept that will be a lot to bear with existing mortgages etc. We all cut our cloth to fit. But are those higher terms and conditions justifiable in this day and age?
Since you retired you may also have missed that BASSA allowed the pay, allowances, crewing levels and products that BA now propose airline-wide at LGW. Not such much as a whimper either. But they now resist those changes at LHR on principle or because it will ruin our airline?
As you're so up to date on things, can you let us all know what changes the engineers agreed to? Then please explain how the pilots' deal is relevant to that and then again, why our CC deal is relevant to both the aforementioned deals.
I know the details of each deal but I'll let you know my thoughts before you reply. They are unrelated! Each department had to make cuts and changes according to the targets that BA set them. Those targets were based on market rate, the need for savings and current efficiency / inefficiency.
The engineers and pilots met their targets. End of. There is no guaranteed clawback of cuts in either deal. They are permanent changes!
According to PWC, BASSA's proposals met only 30% of their target. Now at this point, we can continue to be adult, or you can sneer at PWC's valuation of the BASSA deal like Flying Chick. However, you can deny it's real value all you like - it simply won't change BA's course of action. Which is why I want BASSA to get round the table, poll it's members, accept that the world has changed and then negotiate a deal that will be superior to Willie's impending imposition.
BA's cuts will not affect the large numbers of us on the lower rates of pay too much - we already work that efficiently (especially our crew at LGW) for that re-numeration. It will, however, hit a few very, very hard. That gives me no pleasure. I accept that will be a lot to bear with existing mortgages etc. We all cut our cloth to fit. But are those higher terms and conditions justifiable in this day and age?
Since you retired you may also have missed that BASSA allowed the pay, allowances, crewing levels and products that BA now propose airline-wide at LGW. Not such much as a whimper either. But they now resist those changes at LHR on principle or because it will ruin our airline?
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Anyhow before the moderators interject, enough of pilots deals, thats done and dusted back to the cabin crew negotiations.
Flying chick,
Firstly you cant ballot as there is nothing to strike over, untill new contracts are sent out,
secondly if they are and a ballot goes forward I would predict a 60% yes vote from a 30% return, ie a 22% in favour, hardly a big yes and easy for BA to rule it an illegal strike, especially after BASSA not bothering to turn up for negotiations or even meet the deadline, did they explain that much, or how they were offered a look at the pwc's figures before the deadline but didnt bother turning up.
Lastly, if BASSA have been so upfront, why did it take them a week to fudge the individual figures for their proposal after they submitted it, and how come they never told you the whole package you would get and the huge benfits in having the monthly payments over box payments etc.
R7
Flying chick,
Firstly you cant ballot as there is nothing to strike over, untill new contracts are sent out,
secondly if they are and a ballot goes forward I would predict a 60% yes vote from a 30% return, ie a 22% in favour, hardly a big yes and easy for BA to rule it an illegal strike, especially after BASSA not bothering to turn up for negotiations or even meet the deadline, did they explain that much, or how they were offered a look at the pwc's figures before the deadline but didnt bother turning up.
Lastly, if BASSA have been so upfront, why did it take them a week to fudge the individual figures for their proposal after they submitted it, and how come they never told you the whole package you would get and the huge benfits in having the monthly payments over box payments etc.
R7
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Flying chick - You seem to delight in sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "I'm not listening" but I'll press ahead anyway.
You say passengers keep flying BA because of their crews. As has been pointed out there are lots of reasons why passengers choose to/have to fly BA.
If we were to list the reasons why people (particularly those all-important and now scarce premium passensers) don't fly the airline, the inconsistent quality of cabin crew would be high on the list. In particular:
- Lack of visibility of Cabin Service Director, particularly in premium cabins
- High variability in the quality of crews (most notably in First class where a bad crew can wreck a flight for the passenger, but also in Club World and Club Europe)
- Lack of visibility of crews in World Traveller inbetween the first and second meal service.
The majority of BA crews do a capable job of delivering the specified product.
There are a minority of crew who are exceptionally good. They deliver a warm, attentive and professional service and cannot do enough for passengers. When you get one of these crews, BA is the best in the industry.
Unfortunately, there are also another minority of crew that can make BA the absolute worst. Sour-faced, grumpy crew members (and very often in senior positions) who will go out of their way to do no more than the absolute bare minimum.
BA does not have a right to exist. There is plenty of competition out there (don't forget the Star Alliance has just gained a strong foothold at LHR through Lufthansa's acquisition of bmi, and Lufthansa have really upped their game recently) and unless it adapts its cost structure and working practices it will not survive.
You say passengers keep flying BA because of their crews. As has been pointed out there are lots of reasons why passengers choose to/have to fly BA.
If we were to list the reasons why people (particularly those all-important and now scarce premium passensers) don't fly the airline, the inconsistent quality of cabin crew would be high on the list. In particular:
- Lack of visibility of Cabin Service Director, particularly in premium cabins
- High variability in the quality of crews (most notably in First class where a bad crew can wreck a flight for the passenger, but also in Club World and Club Europe)
- Lack of visibility of crews in World Traveller inbetween the first and second meal service.
The majority of BA crews do a capable job of delivering the specified product.
There are a minority of crew who are exceptionally good. They deliver a warm, attentive and professional service and cannot do enough for passengers. When you get one of these crews, BA is the best in the industry.
Unfortunately, there are also another minority of crew that can make BA the absolute worst. Sour-faced, grumpy crew members (and very often in senior positions) who will go out of their way to do no more than the absolute bare minimum.
BA does not have a right to exist. There is plenty of competition out there (don't forget the Star Alliance has just gained a strong foothold at LHR through Lufthansa's acquisition of bmi, and Lufthansa have really upped their game recently) and unless it adapts its cost structure and working practices it will not survive.
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Flying Chick said:
After being told we wouldn't have much of our pay touched, BA proposals were the worst ever seen. I could earn more in tesco. They cannot possibly expect us to accept those awful term and conditions. Why would anyone accept that?
Flying Chick you need to read the proposals again. BA are proposing we work harder. There is no pay cut in the BA proposal.
UNITE are proposing a 2.61% paycut - why should we accept that??
Welcome to BAbitch, ClimbDetent and Blondebird. The army of people prepared to speak out is growing daily - thankyou for having the courage to do so. We need more people to speak out. The only way that we can defeat the BASSA bullying is if we speak out and challenge it.
Oh - and Flying Chick - I soon put the BASSA militants on my flights straight - it's very easy you see - facts and figures confuse them and they are unable to reply.
After being told we wouldn't have much of our pay touched, BA proposals were the worst ever seen. I could earn more in tesco. They cannot possibly expect us to accept those awful term and conditions. Why would anyone accept that?
Flying Chick you need to read the proposals again. BA are proposing we work harder. There is no pay cut in the BA proposal.
UNITE are proposing a 2.61% paycut - why should we accept that??
Welcome to BAbitch, ClimbDetent and Blondebird. The army of people prepared to speak out is growing daily - thankyou for having the courage to do so. We need more people to speak out. The only way that we can defeat the BASSA bullying is if we speak out and challenge it.
Oh - and Flying Chick - I soon put the BASSA militants on my flights straight - it's very easy you see - facts and figures confuse them and they are unable to reply.
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LD12986 said,
There are a minority of crew who are exceptionally good. They deliver a warm, attentive and professional service and cannot do enough for passengers. When you get one of these crews, BA is the best in the industry.
To be fair and give a balanced view, I think more than half the time long haul LHR ( and I am in no doubt LGW, although I have no experience of this) crews are like this, but I totally agree, you only need a bad csd or a few bad apples and the difference is appalling.
R7
There are a minority of crew who are exceptionally good. They deliver a warm, attentive and professional service and cannot do enough for passengers. When you get one of these crews, BA is the best in the industry.
To be fair and give a balanced view, I think more than half the time long haul LHR ( and I am in no doubt LGW, although I have no experience of this) crews are like this, but I totally agree, you only need a bad csd or a few bad apples and the difference is appalling.
R7
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Why I don't fly BA
One reason is the patronising, insulting attitude presented by "Flying Chick".
"Darling".... honestly, do you think that's a useful term in an adult debate, or does BA cabin crew training include a Danny La Rue impression section?
I've had much better service in a Thai economy cabin than I've had in many a BA business class seat. Not to say this is the norm, but you need to get off your high horse if you think treating one passenger nicely and getting a glowing tribute makes up for the number that walk off the aircraft rolling their eyes rather than get involved in an argument with a petulant, overblown dinosaur.
And as for claiming that none of your colleagues in briefings show any dissent, I think it's safe to say it's for the same reason: to avoid the same repetitive, juvenile haranguing that you've so gloriously exhibited here.
You can keep repeating your mantra as long as you like, but BA do find other ways of doing passenger satisfaction surveys, and those that aren't happy are probably more likely to offer their opinions in this environment than on an aircraft in front of an audience (although I myself have no compunction about calling a useless, noisy makeweight a useless, noisy makeweight. I'm sure I've been called a "bitch" more than once as I walked off a BA aircraft).
For the sake of BA, I and many others who have much money to spend flying BA medium and long haul (I wouldn't go as far as saying 95% because I don't invent figures) are fully behind the BA Boards attempt to rein in the cabin crew drama queens. They've been a blight on the airline for a long time.
Personally, when Europe based, I used to fly BA primarily because it was an airline almost guaranteed to get you where you wanted to be, finding innovative and rapid solutions to wildfire strikes, technical problems, etc.
That was, and remains far more important to me, and in this climate I would imagine to many businessmen, than "chicken or beef", trust me.
I know all about the barrage of newspaper adverts and other media rubbish you're planning, to try and bolster your case when the revolution comes; thankfully I also trust the good old British public (which is really all you can address) to take a look at your greed in a time of need and stick two fingers up at it.
Take that back to the coven and pour it in the cauldron - if you have the guts to do it without editing it, which I doubt.
"Darling".... honestly, do you think that's a useful term in an adult debate, or does BA cabin crew training include a Danny La Rue impression section?
I've had much better service in a Thai economy cabin than I've had in many a BA business class seat. Not to say this is the norm, but you need to get off your high horse if you think treating one passenger nicely and getting a glowing tribute makes up for the number that walk off the aircraft rolling their eyes rather than get involved in an argument with a petulant, overblown dinosaur.
And as for claiming that none of your colleagues in briefings show any dissent, I think it's safe to say it's for the same reason: to avoid the same repetitive, juvenile haranguing that you've so gloriously exhibited here.
You can keep repeating your mantra as long as you like, but BA do find other ways of doing passenger satisfaction surveys, and those that aren't happy are probably more likely to offer their opinions in this environment than on an aircraft in front of an audience (although I myself have no compunction about calling a useless, noisy makeweight a useless, noisy makeweight. I'm sure I've been called a "bitch" more than once as I walked off a BA aircraft).
For the sake of BA, I and many others who have much money to spend flying BA medium and long haul (I wouldn't go as far as saying 95% because I don't invent figures) are fully behind the BA Boards attempt to rein in the cabin crew drama queens. They've been a blight on the airline for a long time.
Personally, when Europe based, I used to fly BA primarily because it was an airline almost guaranteed to get you where you wanted to be, finding innovative and rapid solutions to wildfire strikes, technical problems, etc.
That was, and remains far more important to me, and in this climate I would imagine to many businessmen, than "chicken or beef", trust me.
I know all about the barrage of newspaper adverts and other media rubbish you're planning, to try and bolster your case when the revolution comes; thankfully I also trust the good old British public (which is really all you can address) to take a look at your greed in a time of need and stick two fingers up at it.
Take that back to the coven and pour it in the cauldron - if you have the guts to do it without editing it, which I doubt.
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I wonder if BA will use evidence from the forums as ammo, specifically forcing forum hosts to name agitators, thereby rendering a strike illegal on the grounds of incitement?
See Warning to abusive bloggers as judge tells site to reveal names | Technology | The Guardian
See Warning to abusive bloggers as judge tells site to reveal names | Technology | The Guardian
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WOW....Some really bitter and twisted posts on this thread. Some of you might get your desired 'debate' if you were a little less aggressive in your posts.
What will you do when all is sorted out with CC - go to another thread and harangue groundstaff/ ramp workers?
At the end of the day, and many will get on the merry-go-round and slate me, BA have to negotiate with Bassa/Amicus and whatever your thoughts/hopes are that is the reality of life in BA.
What will you do when all is sorted out with CC - go to another thread and harangue groundstaff/ ramp workers?
At the end of the day, and many will get on the merry-go-round and slate me, BA have to negotiate with Bassa/Amicus and whatever your thoughts/hopes are that is the reality of life in BA.
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CFC
BA DID have to negotiate. That stage ended on 30th June. A further negotiation period was created with the introduction of ACAS to mediate. Both periods ended with no agreement.
I'm not so sure Willie now needs to negotiate anymore and I'm very fearful that he will simply impose. Could you explain why he won't do this? What are his other options?
Nutjob (not bitter or twisted, just worried about my future)
P.S Strong, factual debate should not be confused with aggression. It is the name-calling ("DARLING") and unnecessary statements ("you can all go to hell in a handcart") from those who are pro-BASSA-approach that can be construed as aggressive imo.
BA DID have to negotiate. That stage ended on 30th June. A further negotiation period was created with the introduction of ACAS to mediate. Both periods ended with no agreement.
I'm not so sure Willie now needs to negotiate anymore and I'm very fearful that he will simply impose. Could you explain why he won't do this? What are his other options?
Nutjob (not bitter or twisted, just worried about my future)
P.S Strong, factual debate should not be confused with aggression. It is the name-calling ("DARLING") and unnecessary statements ("you can all go to hell in a handcart") from those who are pro-BASSA-approach that can be construed as aggressive imo.
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You might find this enlightening, especially reading from Dismissal & re-engagement onwards:
Gannons London Solicitors: Restructuring - changing employment contracts & cutting pay - private companies; redundancy; bonuses; dismissal; employee consultation;
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I'm not so sure Willie now needs to negotiate anymore and I'm very fearful that he will simply impose. Could you explain why he won't do this? What are his other options?
With all the doom and gloom in the industry, action is still required by the company. The longer the CEO leaves it, the worst it can only get.