British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Anyway as I say, surely a mistake - wouldn't be the first time TRACIE has had a hiccup.
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Well Sunnysmith, your comments prove that you do not have the access to the CF that you say you have
PS Some may be wondering (on another forum.... can't think where!) why the 'NIGELS HAVE BEEN SOLD OUT BY BALPA' as Balpa has decided to implement some of our agreement early. As far as I understand this is to enable the VR to take place and thus preserve the associated savings....
Thought you may like to know
SS
"Normal" Employment disputes
Whilst serious employment disputes should not, perhaps, be called "normal", they do tend to follow a pattern. Normally, both sides' negotiators can meet, and treat each other as human beings, whether or not they have any intention of coming to an agreement. Normally, it is only after the negotiations have broken down, and after the industrial action is underway that apparent "hatred" breaks out. "Hatred" is an overstatement in many cases, but once action is underway, both sides stop hearing each other, and label the other side as all sorts of things - normally very unpleasant.
I am puzzled why this pattern has not been followed in the BA CC dispute. The apparent "hatred" seems to be in place far too early.
The only circumstances where that "normally" takes place is where there are Political motivations in place - often associated with Trotskyite and other rabble-rousing infiltrators.
I really do not know whether or not there are such people in place in and around BA, but it could well explain this pattern of behaviour.
I am puzzled why this pattern has not been followed in the BA CC dispute. The apparent "hatred" seems to be in place far too early.
The only circumstances where that "normally" takes place is where there are Political motivations in place - often associated with Trotskyite and other rabble-rousing infiltrators.
I really do not know whether or not there are such people in place in and around BA, but it could well explain this pattern of behaviour.
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Tightslot.
The anti-bassa brigade haven't understood your posts. I cannot re-join the debate because in the first instance there isn't one.
Secondly, we at BA are fortunate that neither side of the debate is actually represented by the people who post on here. There is currently nothing to talk about; no news. Matters will recommence at the end of the two week cooling off period, and at that time there may be something to discuss.
In the meantime I cannot lower myself to the apparent current state play whereby Pilots are self-centred bigots and Bassa supporting Cabin Crew are simply stupid communists. There really is no chance of a thaw.
The anti-bassa brigade haven't understood your posts. I cannot re-join the debate because in the first instance there isn't one.
Secondly, we at BA are fortunate that neither side of the debate is actually represented by the people who post on here. There is currently nothing to talk about; no news. Matters will recommence at the end of the two week cooling off period, and at that time there may be something to discuss.
In the meantime I cannot lower myself to the apparent current state play whereby Pilots are self-centred bigots and Bassa supporting Cabin Crew are simply stupid communists. There really is no chance of a thaw.
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Glamourhoagie
If you look you'll see that Openskies is on its knees, and up for sale; so not much of a threat currently - plus there's enough going on at BA anyway.
But, in my view, Balpa's action worked!
We stopped Openskies threatening our work at London, and demonstrated strong resolve and intelligent and resourceful negotiating to BA mangement.
We tried to show leadership to your reps / members but they didn't pick up on it, which is one of the reasons you're in a pickle now. If only Bassa had seen the threat and been proactive.
In the same way crew now sneer at pilot pensions without realising that it is solely thanks to Balpa that you still have a decent pension, or any pension at all.
Certainly Bassa reps don't understand the 1st thing about pensions so merely try to copy Balpa's work.
If you look you'll see that Openskies is on its knees, and up for sale; so not much of a threat currently - plus there's enough going on at BA anyway.
But, in my view, Balpa's action worked!
We stopped Openskies threatening our work at London, and demonstrated strong resolve and intelligent and resourceful negotiating to BA mangement.
We tried to show leadership to your reps / members but they didn't pick up on it, which is one of the reasons you're in a pickle now. If only Bassa had seen the threat and been proactive.
In the same way crew now sneer at pilot pensions without realising that it is solely thanks to Balpa that you still have a decent pension, or any pension at all.
Certainly Bassa reps don't understand the 1st thing about pensions so merely try to copy Balpa's work.
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The mods are right – this must look atrocious to outsiders. Perhaps we should use this thread to tap into the intelligent and logical minds out there who could help us against the “naïve amateurs” that are sinking our ship, whilst ignoring the trolls?!
The reality is – we, BA cabin crew who care about our company and do NOT support the BASSA stance, are unable to speak out on any other forum. If anyone tries on CrewForum, BASSA forum or ESS forum rent-a-mob simply hit back making personal attacks and not a lot of sense. It would be no good as a lone voice writing to the Union so how can we make our voices heard?
At the AMICUS meeting there was a unanimous vote for “meaningful negotiations to continue”. However, on their website it states they have now pulled out of negotiations citing “failure to agree”. So where are the “meaningful negotiations”? Amicus have traditionally shown a bit more independence, so if they are now just following the BASSA lead, this is very bad news indeed. It appears that we are all just now being led like lambs to the slaughter. What can be done or do we just have to sit back and watch it happen? There is a wealth of knowledge out there – someone must know if this is right or wrong?
To the mods I would say that this is the ONLY forum where we can actually voice our concerns over the unions' treatment of us, their handling of this dire situation and receive some support from our flight crew colleagues. It has been great to read this thread and realise I’m not going mad. This thread is also very tame compared to the vitriol that is gushing out on the other forums against anyone who does not eat, drink and breathe the BASSA mantra. If you have half a brain, you’re not welcome there!
The reality is – we, BA cabin crew who care about our company and do NOT support the BASSA stance, are unable to speak out on any other forum. If anyone tries on CrewForum, BASSA forum or ESS forum rent-a-mob simply hit back making personal attacks and not a lot of sense. It would be no good as a lone voice writing to the Union so how can we make our voices heard?
At the AMICUS meeting there was a unanimous vote for “meaningful negotiations to continue”. However, on their website it states they have now pulled out of negotiations citing “failure to agree”. So where are the “meaningful negotiations”? Amicus have traditionally shown a bit more independence, so if they are now just following the BASSA lead, this is very bad news indeed. It appears that we are all just now being led like lambs to the slaughter. What can be done or do we just have to sit back and watch it happen? There is a wealth of knowledge out there – someone must know if this is right or wrong?
To the mods I would say that this is the ONLY forum where we can actually voice our concerns over the unions' treatment of us, their handling of this dire situation and receive some support from our flight crew colleagues. It has been great to read this thread and realise I’m not going mad. This thread is also very tame compared to the vitriol that is gushing out on the other forums against anyone who does not eat, drink and breathe the BASSA mantra. If you have half a brain, you’re not welcome there!
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It would be no good as a lone voice writing to the Union so how can we make our voices heard?
I would argue that if you all wrote to the union to express your opinion, it will make a difference. However, I do understand your reluctance. I have been encouraging my partner to do just that, but she shares your POV (it won't make a difference). This is because she spoke to one of the reps and ended up politely walking away as she got fed up with the anti-pilot, anti-WW and anti-BA hysteria.
I still say do it. Write a calm, factual letter to Bassa. Copy it to amicus. If all like minded crew did that, then those who represent you would be negligent/irresponsible if they did not address your concerns. At the end of the day you can only try to get your voice heard, but 'try' is the important bit!
support from our flight crew colleagues
Good luck
SS
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The Blu Ribband.
I'm doing my upmost to stay away from the Balpas/Bassas best - you smell arguments on here. However I have to question the statement that Balpa's action over OpenSkies worked. Was an organised march/walk along the Bath Rd and a 94% ballot for industrial action really 'intelligent and resourceful negotiating'?
OpenSkies is a farce and was a huge mistake by BA management for several reasons including incurring the wrath of BA's most accomodating department. But unless Balpa have taken control of the world economy, I'm afraid they haven't brought the impending sale/closure of OpenSkies.
I'm doing my upmost to stay away from the Balpas/Bassas best - you smell arguments on here. However I have to question the statement that Balpa's action over OpenSkies worked. Was an organised march/walk along the Bath Rd and a 94% ballot for industrial action really 'intelligent and resourceful negotiating'?
OpenSkies is a farce and was a huge mistake by BA management for several reasons including incurring the wrath of BA's most accomodating department. But unless Balpa have taken control of the world economy, I'm afraid they haven't brought the impending sale/closure of OpenSkies.
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Human Factor.
Both BA management and the Unions have dug themselves in so deep that they are currently unable to budge. Just as frustrating and un-productive as being un-willing to talk at all.
But the point was made that Balpa's actions of marching and balloting represented intelligent and resourceful negotiation with BA management. On that basis, how can the suggestion that Cabin Crew may have to journey down the same route be interpreted as anything different.
The overwhelming feel of this thread is that the unions, and in particular Bassa are solely to blame for the current impasse, even the extension now affecting the ground staff and A grades.
OpenSkies is not the subject here, nor is the actions of Balpa, unless a threat of industrial action by one group can be construed as intelligent but by another group as reckless.
I know there will be no agreement on this point, I've had my say now you have yours and lets move on.
Both BA management and the Unions have dug themselves in so deep that they are currently unable to budge. Just as frustrating and un-productive as being un-willing to talk at all.
But the point was made that Balpa's actions of marching and balloting represented intelligent and resourceful negotiation with BA management. On that basis, how can the suggestion that Cabin Crew may have to journey down the same route be interpreted as anything different.
The overwhelming feel of this thread is that the unions, and in particular Bassa are solely to blame for the current impasse, even the extension now affecting the ground staff and A grades.
OpenSkies is not the subject here, nor is the actions of Balpa, unless a threat of industrial action by one group can be construed as intelligent but by another group as reckless.
I know there will be no agreement on this point, I've had my say now you have yours and lets move on.
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CSDs to get a 20% pay rise and an F ticket.
Old contract main crew to get a 5% pay rise.
New contract crew to get a 20% pay cut.
New fleet to be introduced.
BASSA happy to sign off on the deal. " Our senior ranks finally have the rewards that they so richly deserve".
You heard it here first!
Old contract main crew to get a 5% pay rise.
New contract crew to get a 20% pay cut.
New fleet to be introduced.
BASSA happy to sign off on the deal. " Our senior ranks finally have the rewards that they so richly deserve".
You heard it here first!
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No idea if the comment was a wind up, but there is an interesting story on Bloomberg today about Ryanair's results. This might concentrate some minds at BA, AF/KLM, LH etc. The link is:
Ryanair to Top Air France, Lufthansa on Extra Routes (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
The two most interesting points are:
"Discounters are certainly moving in. They capitalized on Alitalia SpA’s decision to scrap more than two-thirds of its flights at Malpensa airport in Milan. Ryanair now flies to 20 Italian destinations. EasyJet has gone to 17 aircraft from three in Milan and added planes at Gatwick as British Airways shrinks there."
My take on this is that any capacity cuts that BA etc have to make will simply be seized by the LoCos. Once lost, you'll struggle to regain market share in the upturn. Therefore efforts should focus on how to minimise such cuts, as "temporary" cuts will probably end up being permanent if Ryanair/Easy replace BA on any route. Cost structures are key to minimising capacity cuts now.
"Ryanair’s Millar said that while the company will keep up the pace of growth in the short term, the airline will be “a different type of carrier” in a few years. “Beyond 2012 we think growth will be more modest. You can’t forever grow at 15 percent, it would just blow up.”"
Again, my take is that 2012 is the year Ryanair will go long haul. They'll have exhausted their ability to grow (organically) in the short haul market, so they'll need to open up other markets to continue growing.
This is BA's long term competition. WW has already aknowledged that the old high fares premium model is probably broken for good. The heavily discounted Club fares currently offered by BA etc will be the norm even after the upturn. Ryanair will see to that by their usual ploy, ie flood the market with supply, cut fares aggressively, confident that any "margin pain" they suffer will be less than anyone else. They will offer a "dumbed down" business class that can be profitable at today's premium fares (ie 50-75% lower than BA has previously managed to charge)
BA's cost structure needs to be able to cope with this. It's for BA and its staff to work out how best to achieve it, but flexibility is key, as this allows maximum aircraft utilisation, which is central to the LoCos business model. A key component of maximising utilisation is flexibility in the staffing of those aircraft. Cost structures/staff incentives need to reflect this.
One final point to concentrate minds at BA. Ryanair's cash balances have risen this quarter, with no recourse to investors/banks. I doubt BA will be able to say that when they report this week. "Cash burn" is currently the main metric by which airlines are being measured/valued.
BA's challenges are all external. The internal flight crew versus cabin crew versus ground crew debate is actually a bit irrelevant. Very typical of large organisations, though, with "silo" mentalities. But that can be sorted out after you've at least made sure the organisation survives.
Ryanair to Top Air France, Lufthansa on Extra Routes (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
The two most interesting points are:
"Discounters are certainly moving in. They capitalized on Alitalia SpA’s decision to scrap more than two-thirds of its flights at Malpensa airport in Milan. Ryanair now flies to 20 Italian destinations. EasyJet has gone to 17 aircraft from three in Milan and added planes at Gatwick as British Airways shrinks there."
My take on this is that any capacity cuts that BA etc have to make will simply be seized by the LoCos. Once lost, you'll struggle to regain market share in the upturn. Therefore efforts should focus on how to minimise such cuts, as "temporary" cuts will probably end up being permanent if Ryanair/Easy replace BA on any route. Cost structures are key to minimising capacity cuts now.
"Ryanair’s Millar said that while the company will keep up the pace of growth in the short term, the airline will be “a different type of carrier” in a few years. “Beyond 2012 we think growth will be more modest. You can’t forever grow at 15 percent, it would just blow up.”"
Again, my take is that 2012 is the year Ryanair will go long haul. They'll have exhausted their ability to grow (organically) in the short haul market, so they'll need to open up other markets to continue growing.
This is BA's long term competition. WW has already aknowledged that the old high fares premium model is probably broken for good. The heavily discounted Club fares currently offered by BA etc will be the norm even after the upturn. Ryanair will see to that by their usual ploy, ie flood the market with supply, cut fares aggressively, confident that any "margin pain" they suffer will be less than anyone else. They will offer a "dumbed down" business class that can be profitable at today's premium fares (ie 50-75% lower than BA has previously managed to charge)
BA's cost structure needs to be able to cope with this. It's for BA and its staff to work out how best to achieve it, but flexibility is key, as this allows maximum aircraft utilisation, which is central to the LoCos business model. A key component of maximising utilisation is flexibility in the staffing of those aircraft. Cost structures/staff incentives need to reflect this.
One final point to concentrate minds at BA. Ryanair's cash balances have risen this quarter, with no recourse to investors/banks. I doubt BA will be able to say that when they report this week. "Cash burn" is currently the main metric by which airlines are being measured/valued.
BA's challenges are all external. The internal flight crew versus cabin crew versus ground crew debate is actually a bit irrelevant. Very typical of large organisations, though, with "silo" mentalities. But that can be sorted out after you've at least made sure the organisation survives.
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My last few posts certainly seem to have caused a bit of a stir...
To the people from CF reading this, you've blocked the wrong person. I know a lot of people call for naming and shaming, but if this happens, I'd happily take it to higher levels if need be. I posted what I posted to let others know about the awful attitude to some issues, not to be hunted down. Someone on CF has said I should be shot, which I presume is a "joke", although I don't particularly find it funny.
I'm fully aware of high emotions and tension, but I can't sit back and let false information be passed around as facts, neither can I accept the attitudes some people have regarding colleagues and opinions.
Gg
Edited to add that apparently I'm a spy sent from management or a media-hack...
To the people from CF reading this, you've blocked the wrong person. I know a lot of people call for naming and shaming, but if this happens, I'd happily take it to higher levels if need be. I posted what I posted to let others know about the awful attitude to some issues, not to be hunted down. Someone on CF has said I should be shot, which I presume is a "joke", although I don't particularly find it funny.
I'm fully aware of high emotions and tension, but I can't sit back and let false information be passed around as facts, neither can I accept the attitudes some people have regarding colleagues and opinions.
Gg
Edited to add that apparently I'm a spy sent from management or a media-hack...
Last edited by Glamgirl; 28th Jul 2009 at 02:28.
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I find that crew forum hilarious! On the one hand they are running round in a demented witch hunt trying to track down Glamgirl and ban her for "misrepresenting crew", yet in the same thread they refer to BA pilots using a variety of four letter expletives and even suggest they wouldn't bother to hang onto poor old Tim Lancasters legs if he flew out of his 1-11 window tomorrow. And he was a nice guy! Meanwhile their ringleader pops up on here in numerous guises like some schizophrenic Lord Haw Haw telling us black is white whilst rallying his troops over there with patently false information about everyone else. Then they all get round and slap each others backs before turning their vitriol on the only person posting any truth because she's "got to take the rough with the smooth". Nut jobs!
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Anyway enough of the hilarity and back to the serious stuff. I know a lot of crew are concerned about how things are developing at the moment and how the months ahead might play out so I had a think about timelines and what could happen.
If a strike is going to occur Willie wants it on or after 1st October: it’s the winter season, tactical cancellations are in place, the slot restrictions have been lifted which means there’s no long term penalty to the airline and it’s a traditionally quiet period.
If BASSA want to strike they need to give 7 days notice of a ballot and 28 days notice of a strike. To make the ballot legally watertight they are going to have to ensure anybody on a 11 day trip or 14 day vacation has the chance to vote, plus they have to count the votes and maybe check them again. That means they’ll probably have to spend about 21 days on the balloting process, so lets work on 56 days as the minimum time to strike.
The failure to agree was registered on Friday 25th July. The cooling off period ends Fridays 8th August.
Saturday 9th: Nothing happens. BASSA have nothing to call a strike for.
Sunday 10th: Nothing happens (reps taken the day off?)
Monday 11th: The printing presses roll into action. By the end of the day 14000 new contracts are in the post.
Tuesday 12th: Contracts start dropping on door mats. BASSAs phones are ringing off the hook with concerned members who didn’t realise it could come to this. BA managers phones are on voicemail, BASSA can’t reach any of them and they’re barred from BA premises.
Wednesday 13th: BASSA issues formal notice of intention to ballot.
Fast forward the minimum 56 days and whaddya know, its:
October 1st! BASSA strike begins. Or does it? BA crew have had 56 days to look at the new contract. It’s not as bad as they were led to believe. A fixed monthly flying payment (“Well it would be good to even out my income each month”). A change to the disruption agreement (“I haven’t diverted in years and I hate losing a trip when there’s disruption”) . Promotion on merit (“I’m good, I could achieve it, and I’ll never get it if I have to wait 12 years under a seniority system”). Part time for all (“I’ve waited years for that”). Maybe even a bidding system.
And with the carrot comes the stick. All crew must notify BA of their availability to work on the strike dates. If you are not available you will not be paid. If you go sick you will not be paid. Staff travel suspended for a year for strikers and those with ‘pattern absence’ on strike days. And the knowledge that in 34 days if you haven’t signed the new contract then in the eyes of the law you have resigned: you’re out of a job and can’t even claim the dole. That’s assuming the strike is even permitted. BA will be in the High Court seeking an injunction against the strike, claiming an SOSR need to issue new contracts. BA have played it by the book legally. BASSA have been caught feeding their members false information about other employees deals and whipping up an atmosphere of hostility.
BASSA thinks 14000 crew will stand shoulder to shoulder and fight to preserve the way things are. I think if they’re Gatwick based, new contract or part-time crew they’ll be slipping in the back door to T5 to keep a job they like and earnings they can’t match elsewhere. When we reach November 11th (90 days since the new contract was issued) we wave goodbye to the die hards on the picket lines and move on to the brave new world of BA. Perhaps the most frightening element of this scenario is that it’s all entirely legal for BA to do, but I doubt BASSA really want their members to go into this dispute with their eyes open. They might start to ask awkward questions.
If a strike is going to occur Willie wants it on or after 1st October: it’s the winter season, tactical cancellations are in place, the slot restrictions have been lifted which means there’s no long term penalty to the airline and it’s a traditionally quiet period.
If BASSA want to strike they need to give 7 days notice of a ballot and 28 days notice of a strike. To make the ballot legally watertight they are going to have to ensure anybody on a 11 day trip or 14 day vacation has the chance to vote, plus they have to count the votes and maybe check them again. That means they’ll probably have to spend about 21 days on the balloting process, so lets work on 56 days as the minimum time to strike.
The failure to agree was registered on Friday 25th July. The cooling off period ends Fridays 8th August.
Saturday 9th: Nothing happens. BASSA have nothing to call a strike for.
Sunday 10th: Nothing happens (reps taken the day off?)
Monday 11th: The printing presses roll into action. By the end of the day 14000 new contracts are in the post.
Tuesday 12th: Contracts start dropping on door mats. BASSAs phones are ringing off the hook with concerned members who didn’t realise it could come to this. BA managers phones are on voicemail, BASSA can’t reach any of them and they’re barred from BA premises.
Wednesday 13th: BASSA issues formal notice of intention to ballot.
Fast forward the minimum 56 days and whaddya know, its:
October 1st! BASSA strike begins. Or does it? BA crew have had 56 days to look at the new contract. It’s not as bad as they were led to believe. A fixed monthly flying payment (“Well it would be good to even out my income each month”). A change to the disruption agreement (“I haven’t diverted in years and I hate losing a trip when there’s disruption”) . Promotion on merit (“I’m good, I could achieve it, and I’ll never get it if I have to wait 12 years under a seniority system”). Part time for all (“I’ve waited years for that”). Maybe even a bidding system.
And with the carrot comes the stick. All crew must notify BA of their availability to work on the strike dates. If you are not available you will not be paid. If you go sick you will not be paid. Staff travel suspended for a year for strikers and those with ‘pattern absence’ on strike days. And the knowledge that in 34 days if you haven’t signed the new contract then in the eyes of the law you have resigned: you’re out of a job and can’t even claim the dole. That’s assuming the strike is even permitted. BA will be in the High Court seeking an injunction against the strike, claiming an SOSR need to issue new contracts. BA have played it by the book legally. BASSA have been caught feeding their members false information about other employees deals and whipping up an atmosphere of hostility.
BASSA thinks 14000 crew will stand shoulder to shoulder and fight to preserve the way things are. I think if they’re Gatwick based, new contract or part-time crew they’ll be slipping in the back door to T5 to keep a job they like and earnings they can’t match elsewhere. When we reach November 11th (90 days since the new contract was issued) we wave goodbye to the die hards on the picket lines and move on to the brave new world of BA. Perhaps the most frightening element of this scenario is that it’s all entirely legal for BA to do, but I doubt BASSA really want their members to go into this dispute with their eyes open. They might start to ask awkward questions.
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CFC
Makes unhappy reading, doesn't it? Yet that's where BASSA have taken us. It was too late when we missed BA's deadline at the end of June. I'm afraid you can't laugh BALPA's OpenSkies strike being legally blocked one moment and then scoff at the possibility of BASSA being blocked in a similar way.
Keep kidding yourself that it won't happen. The rest of us are trying to work out what we'll do when it does.
I hope you have a "Plan B" and somewhere to vent your frustrations - I doubt you'll have a legal strike to do that with.
Makes unhappy reading, doesn't it? Yet that's where BASSA have taken us. It was too late when we missed BA's deadline at the end of June. I'm afraid you can't laugh BALPA's OpenSkies strike being legally blocked one moment and then scoff at the possibility of BASSA being blocked in a similar way.
Keep kidding yourself that it won't happen. The rest of us are trying to work out what we'll do when it does.
I hope you have a "Plan B" and somewhere to vent your frustrations - I doubt you'll have a legal strike to do that with.