British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
My wife is an employment law consultant. Its game, set and match to BA in her opinion.
The relevant thing to understand was quoted above:
They'll use SOSR and they'll win.
WWW
The relevant thing to understand was quoted above:
Disagreeing to changes in your employment conditions
Sometimes your employer will want to bring in a change to your contract that you don't agree to. Find out what your rights are if that is happening and how you can raise your complaint.
What if you and your employer don't agree?
If you don't agree, your employer is not allowed to just bring in a change. However, they can terminate your contract (by giving notice) and offer you a new one including the revised terms - effectively sacking you and taking you back on. Your employer would be expected to follow a statutory minimum dismissal procedure. They may have to follow a collective redundancy consultation process if they plan to do this to a group of employees.
If this situation happens in your workplace, you should contact the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service (Acas) or another advice service from our contacts pages for further guidance.
If you don't accept the new contract - or if you've accepted the new one but feel there was no good reason for ending the old one - you have the right to make an unfair dismissal claim provided you've at least one year of continuous service with your employer. You may also be able to claim redundancy if you have at least two years service.
If there is a sound business reason for the change, and your employer has properly consulted you and looked into any alternatives, you could find it difficult to win your claim.
Sometimes your employer will want to bring in a change to your contract that you don't agree to. Find out what your rights are if that is happening and how you can raise your complaint.
What if you and your employer don't agree?
If you don't agree, your employer is not allowed to just bring in a change. However, they can terminate your contract (by giving notice) and offer you a new one including the revised terms - effectively sacking you and taking you back on. Your employer would be expected to follow a statutory minimum dismissal procedure. They may have to follow a collective redundancy consultation process if they plan to do this to a group of employees.
If this situation happens in your workplace, you should contact the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service (Acas) or another advice service from our contacts pages for further guidance.
If you don't accept the new contract - or if you've accepted the new one but feel there was no good reason for ending the old one - you have the right to make an unfair dismissal claim provided you've at least one year of continuous service with your employer. You may also be able to claim redundancy if you have at least two years service.
If there is a sound business reason for the change, and your employer has properly consulted you and looked into any alternatives, you could find it difficult to win your claim.
They'll use SOSR and they'll win.
WWW
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The reason we are not backing out of your troubles is that many of us have family and/or good friends who are being poorly represented, who aren't receiving the full facts from Bassa, and could be being led into an unnecessary, stressful and ultimately expensive confrontation. Bassa need to start being open and honest, stop the tub-thumping and aggressive name-calling, and start being sophisticated and imaginative.
They should be working for the benefit of all their members, not just a few senior CSDs who commute, and who have by far the most to lose.
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It would seem that the city has wind of change.
BA share price is topping £1.61 at the moment and on the up!
Is it possible that the investors can see that BASSA is leading their membership into oblivion.
As to those posters who continually state that most of those expressing concern on this forum are anti BA CC, you honestly couldn't be further from the truth.
Change has to happen, there is more going on in the company than just the BASSA spat. We are all tightening belts and trying to re-organise the Airline for the future. We all want the CC along as well but not being led by a militant organisation such as BASSA who don't appear to be interested in balanced negotiation.
I, personally, enjoy the flights I do, have the greatest respect for the CC and constantly ensure that I am polite, respectful and courteous with them all. I do feel however that they are being let down by their union, when asked what is occurring they generally don't know and when they have honest, truthful and balanced answers as to why this wasn't agreed or why did the company do that they can see there is more than one side to the story.
The constant prattle of, 'you don't agree with BASSA then you must hate all CC' is really starting to wear thin. Please understand that trying to help a group of individuals make a life changing decision by supplying them with facts does not turn one into a CC hater, quite the opposite.
BA share price is topping £1.61 at the moment and on the up!
Is it possible that the investors can see that BASSA is leading their membership into oblivion.
As to those posters who continually state that most of those expressing concern on this forum are anti BA CC, you honestly couldn't be further from the truth.
Change has to happen, there is more going on in the company than just the BASSA spat. We are all tightening belts and trying to re-organise the Airline for the future. We all want the CC along as well but not being led by a militant organisation such as BASSA who don't appear to be interested in balanced negotiation.
I, personally, enjoy the flights I do, have the greatest respect for the CC and constantly ensure that I am polite, respectful and courteous with them all. I do feel however that they are being let down by their union, when asked what is occurring they generally don't know and when they have honest, truthful and balanced answers as to why this wasn't agreed or why did the company do that they can see there is more than one side to the story.
The constant prattle of, 'you don't agree with BASSA then you must hate all CC' is really starting to wear thin. Please understand that trying to help a group of individuals make a life changing decision by supplying them with facts does not turn one into a CC hater, quite the opposite.
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Well, 100 more BA pilots to lose their jobs.
What will BASSA do when 3,000 cabin crew are given their notice on 1st September?
Please, all of you on the new contract take a stand against the "fat cat" £60,000 WW CSDs that run BASSA. Share the wealth before you share the pain!!!
What will BASSA do when 3,000 cabin crew are given their notice on 1st September?
Please, all of you on the new contract take a stand against the "fat cat" £60,000 WW CSDs that run BASSA. Share the wealth before you share the pain!!!
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Originally Posted by Bealine
I am no lawyer but I always believe that British Law will act on what is fair and reasonable and what British Airways proposes is not fair and not reasonable.
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There are plenty of personnel leaving the armed services right now. Add the newly delivered deal to experienced real aircrew with their pensions and I'm sure that there will be a seemless transition. Old decrepit CSD's should take fright, there are many that will take the new contracts and oversee their downfall.
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So, the BA proposal letters have been sent out to World Wide crew, people have read them and thought to themselves....... is all they want? Phew! 
In a nutshell;
a) 2000 man power equiv reduction via VR 50/75% part time if desired. 150 33% PTW also avail.
b) 1 PSR reduction on WW flights, 1 main crew member reduction on LR flights
c) CSD has to do a defined working role
d) Some nightstops that were 2 nights reduced to 1 night, except Oz trips.
e) No paycut two yr pay freeze & one yr incremental freeze, unless you take home less than £14.5k. (+£18-21k allowances)
f) Early day report two hours earlier
So, in summary, work a bit harder on board (or quite a bit harder in the case of a minority of CSDs, you know the ones!), a bit less time in the hotel downroute (as so many crew are hitting 900hrs, this just means more time at home) and most importantly, no paycut. No minimum wage. No hourly rate.
Can't see a lot to strike about on the face of it, I think BASSA are going to have a job to get people riled up enough to risk the dole queue and start striking over that lot, it all seems reasonable enough...
Anyone know what the Eurofleet / LGW proposal is?
In a nutshell;
a) 2000 man power equiv reduction via VR 50/75% part time if desired. 150 33% PTW also avail.
b) 1 PSR reduction on WW flights, 1 main crew member reduction on LR flights
c) CSD has to do a defined working role
d) Some nightstops that were 2 nights reduced to 1 night, except Oz trips.
e) No paycut
two yr pay freeze & one yr incremental freeze, unless you take home less than £14.5k. (+£18-21k allowances)f) Early day report two hours earlier
So, in summary, work a bit harder on board (or quite a bit harder in the case of a minority of CSDs, you know the ones!), a bit less time in the hotel downroute (as so many crew are hitting 900hrs, this just means more time at home) and most importantly, no paycut. No minimum wage. No hourly rate.
Can't see a lot to strike about on the face of it, I think BASSA are going to have a job to get people riled up enough to risk the dole queue and start striking over that lot, it all seems reasonable enough...
Anyone know what the Eurofleet / LGW proposal is?
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I haven't received my letter yet 
. They sent out the wrong ones to the Pursers at LGW anyways, so new letter in the post as we speak.
Much shouting and screaming and toy throwing on another forum (guess which one), saying NO NO NO.
Part of the EF letter is one less day off (in line with LGW), single supervisory role on the aircraft (either CSD or Purser), less crew on each aircraft (in line with LGW). Not sure what the rest of it is, to be honest.
Gg
(oh, and apparently most crew at LGW are now "gap year students"
)
. They sent out the wrong ones to the Pursers at LGW anyways, so new letter in the post as we speak. Much shouting and screaming and toy throwing on another forum (guess which one), saying NO NO NO.
Part of the EF letter is one less day off (in line with LGW), single supervisory role on the aircraft (either CSD or Purser), less crew on each aircraft (in line with LGW). Not sure what the rest of it is, to be honest.
Gg
(oh, and apparently most crew at LGW are now "gap year students"
)
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Thanks for the info GG, I'd be very interested to hear any more details on the EF SH proposal.
I think BASSA are going to have a hard time convincing LGW to strike.
"Come on guys, support us and risk the dole, strike strike strike!"
"Why should we?"
"Err, because we don't to have 3 crew on a 319!"
"Like we do at Gatwick?"
"Well, we can't possibly have less crew on the 777"
"Like at Gatwick?"
etc etc
I think BASSA are going to have a hard time convincing LGW to strike.
"Come on guys, support us and risk the dole, strike strike strike!"
"Why should we?"
"Err, because we don't to have 3 crew on a 319!"
"Like we do at Gatwick?"
"Well, we can't possibly have less crew on the 777"
"Like at Gatwick?"
etc etc
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Mandycon said: BB and all the other budding lawyers on here lets leave the legalities to the legal experts shall we.
Where are the legal experts Mandycon?
BASSA advice on a new contract letter? - "They can't do it" - yet the government website says they can.
"Don't sign it". But give no information about the consequences that this involves.
BASSA advice on a strike? "They can't sack you". Yet again the information shows they can.
Leaving the legalities to the so-called legal experts of BASSA can have only one consequence: instant dismissal.
Personally, I prefer to find out the information for myself, sign the letter, and keep my job.
Hi to Geardown and FlexSRS - good to see you onboard - the Speak Out against BASSA (SOBs!) army grows!
Where are the legal experts Mandycon?
BASSA advice on a new contract letter? - "They can't do it" - yet the government website says they can.
"Don't sign it". But give no information about the consequences that this involves.
BASSA advice on a strike? "They can't sack you". Yet again the information shows they can.
Leaving the legalities to the so-called legal experts of BASSA can have only one consequence: instant dismissal.
Personally, I prefer to find out the information for myself, sign the letter, and keep my job.
Hi to Geardown and FlexSRS - good to see you onboard - the Speak Out against BASSA (SOBs!) army grows!
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Flex,
There are very few at LGW who would be interested in striking. Also, there are more and more crew at LHR who are waking up and realising that maybe they've been fed (quite) a few porkies and are now figuring it out for themselves.
The sooner the militants realise there is no legal reason to call strike, the better. Any other action, such as a mass sick day or similar will only cause problems for the individuals and will have no impact on the management apart from management having to find another stamp to send out the P45.
Gg
Ps. Some people in other places thinks that I'm anti-crew. This is obviously not true - how could I be?
There are very few at LGW who would be interested in striking. Also, there are more and more crew at LHR who are waking up and realising that maybe they've been fed (quite) a few porkies and are now figuring it out for themselves.
The sooner the militants realise there is no legal reason to call strike, the better. Any other action, such as a mass sick day or similar will only cause problems for the individuals and will have no impact on the management apart from management having to find another stamp to send out the P45.
Gg
Ps. Some people in other places thinks that I'm anti-crew. This is obviously not true - how could I be?
Last edited by Glamgirl; 6th Aug 2009 at 17:01.
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Letter to EF Main Crew
1) Restates that for those that have already registered, there will be, subject to business need: VR / 75% or 50% PT / 33% PT for 150 people.
2) Pay freeze untill FEB2011.
3) 1 Year increment freeze 01/01/10 to 21/12/10 for those on a basic salary of £14500 or higher.
4) Reduction to days off from 10 to 9 pm.
5) Finish time on last day of working blocks of upto 5days to be extended to 2200.
6) Crew complement on EF flights to be consistant with those at LGW. Service routines to be changed to reflect this.
The letter then refers to a new Q&A available on the IFCE intranet and then asks us to complete on online survey.
The online survey asks us to rank in order of preference:
9 days off, 2200 late finish, WW B767 work, 2year payfreeze, increment freeze, single supervisor.
edited: The online survey also has space for any additional comments.
So, another part of the jigsaw has been placed: it'll not be possible to accuse BA of failing to consult.
2) Pay freeze untill FEB2011.
3) 1 Year increment freeze 01/01/10 to 21/12/10 for those on a basic salary of £14500 or higher.
4) Reduction to days off from 10 to 9 pm.
5) Finish time on last day of working blocks of upto 5days to be extended to 2200.
6) Crew complement on EF flights to be consistant with those at LGW. Service routines to be changed to reflect this.
The letter then refers to a new Q&A available on the IFCE intranet and then asks us to complete on online survey.
The online survey asks us to rank in order of preference:
9 days off, 2200 late finish, WW B767 work, 2year payfreeze, increment freeze, single supervisor.
edited: The online survey also has space for any additional comments.
So, another part of the jigsaw has been placed: it'll not be possible to accuse BA of failing to consult.
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Thanks for that, TorC.
Several EF crew are saying No way! to the day off/LGW level crew issues. I'm still wondering how they think it wouldn't happen when it's going on a few miles down the road.
Now that the catering has been changed (or at least soon will be), there is no reason to have 5 crew on board a A319. Apparently, all the juices are coming back to LGW as well (at least one little positive thing, I suppose...)
Gg
Several EF crew are saying No way! to the day off/LGW level crew issues. I'm still wondering how they think it wouldn't happen when it's going on a few miles down the road.
Now that the catering has been changed (or at least soon will be), there is no reason to have 5 crew on board a A319. Apparently, all the juices are coming back to LGW as well (at least one little positive thing, I suppose...)
Gg
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1 PSR reduction on WW - Suggested by BASSA.
1 MCC removed on LR flights - More or less suggested by BASSA as they agreed to remove the additional crew member which includes LR flights to CPT and MRU. If the CSD becomes part of the service it won't have too much of an impact.
Two year pay freeze - Suggested by BASSA.
Early day report brought back two hours - Suggested by BASSA.
Voluntary Redundancy - Suggested by BASSA.
BA is not asking for a pay cut, as suggested by BASSA - which still makes me mad thinking over it, or the fixed monthly payment any longer. CSD to become part of the service makes sense and the two night layover destinations to come down to one night layover probably could have been avoided if negotiations had been serious in the first place. It will be hard and make us reach our 900 hours quicker so not sure how it should be dealt with.
I think it's time for crew to wake up and see that this is actually a pretty good deal and is actually a lot like what BASSA suggested in their proposal.
1 MCC removed on LR flights - More or less suggested by BASSA as they agreed to remove the additional crew member which includes LR flights to CPT and MRU. If the CSD becomes part of the service it won't have too much of an impact.
Two year pay freeze - Suggested by BASSA.
Early day report brought back two hours - Suggested by BASSA.
Voluntary Redundancy - Suggested by BASSA.
BA is not asking for a pay cut, as suggested by BASSA - which still makes me mad thinking over it, or the fixed monthly payment any longer. CSD to become part of the service makes sense and the two night layover destinations to come down to one night layover probably could have been avoided if negotiations had been serious in the first place. It will be hard and make us reach our 900 hours quicker so not sure how it should be dealt with.
I think it's time for crew to wake up and see that this is actually a pretty good deal and is actually a lot like what BASSA suggested in their proposal.
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The obvious route then Nuigini is to let Bassa continue with negotiations.
Glamgirl wrote:
Where do you get your info from Glamgirl?
Glamgirl wrote:
Also, there are more and more crew at LHR who are waking up and realising that maybe they've been fed (quite) a few porkies and are now figuring it out for themselves.
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Geardown 107 wrote:
How and why do you say that? Bassa have met all thats been asked of them...including not communicating during the two week cooling off period - unlike BA with their letters.
The line has been drawn. BASSA have let themselves down,