British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Junior trash
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How the hell would you know something that the top level lawyers at UNITE don't?!
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travelandtrouble
tat
I know you know this, but some don't seem to realise....
A sizeable yes vote will INEVITABLY result in ACTUAL industrial action!
BA has it's back to the wall. It simply does not have the option of accepting "a message"!! The stakes are very, very high for BA this time. Without delivery of savings, they will not survive! They must take this unrest to it's final conclusion, because they know (as we all do) that this fracas alone, will not finish BA. Though other 'clear and present' dangers will.
Please, please, only vote yes if you personally are prepared to be the FIRST to be sacked over the proposals at the centre of this dispute!!!
Nothing could damage BASSA more than a yes vote, followed by a collapse in resolve on day one of IA.
Sure as eggs are eggs, the gobby ones here, and on CF are NOT going to be the first 'over the top' !! They'll be leaving that to the canon fodder.
Is that you?
There have been many comments around how a YES vote would send a message to BA.
I know you know this, but some don't seem to realise....
A sizeable yes vote will INEVITABLY result in ACTUAL industrial action!
BA has it's back to the wall. It simply does not have the option of accepting "a message"!! The stakes are very, very high for BA this time. Without delivery of savings, they will not survive! They must take this unrest to it's final conclusion, because they know (as we all do) that this fracas alone, will not finish BA. Though other 'clear and present' dangers will.
Please, please, only vote yes if you personally are prepared to be the FIRST to be sacked over the proposals at the centre of this dispute!!!
Nothing could damage BASSA more than a yes vote, followed by a collapse in resolve on day one of IA.
Sure as eggs are eggs, the gobby ones here, and on CF are NOT going to be the first 'over the top' !! They'll be leaving that to the canon fodder.
Is that you?
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It beggars belief
Fume Event,
I have to ask:
Do you actually believe any of the stuff you posted, or is this what you're hoping BASSA members will believe?
Whoever compared BASSA to Comical Ali hit the nail right on the head. "There are no American troops in Baghdad" etc.
I know I shouldn't be laughing, but it's so pathetic it's hilarious!
There's obviously no point in rebutting any of it, because if you're dumb enough to believe any of it, you're too dumb to understand how stupid it sounds.
Losing an attempted injunction is a victory. Oh my dear lord....
An untenable position is best exemplified by the first of the BASSA lemmings to refuse to work on December the 21st or thereabouts (if there are still people that naive by then).
And finally, those upset at the use of the Iwo Jima image on BASSA's web sanctuary should rethink their position.
In the original image, the flag was being raised.
In the BASSA image they are desperately trying to hold it up
I have to ask:
Do you actually believe any of the stuff you posted, or is this what you're hoping BASSA members will believe?
Whoever compared BASSA to Comical Ali hit the nail right on the head. "There are no American troops in Baghdad" etc.
I know I shouldn't be laughing, but it's so pathetic it's hilarious!
There's obviously no point in rebutting any of it, because if you're dumb enough to believe any of it, you're too dumb to understand how stupid it sounds.
Losing an attempted injunction is a victory. Oh my dear lord....
An untenable position is best exemplified by the first of the BASSA lemmings to refuse to work on December the 21st or thereabouts (if there are still people that naive by then).
And finally, those upset at the use of the Iwo Jima image on BASSA's web sanctuary should rethink their position.
In the original image, the flag was being raised.
In the BASSA image they are desperately trying to hold it up
Last edited by Desertia; 10th Nov 2009 at 07:11. Reason: I should add...
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dns
Thanks for the complement! 
The answer is 'Yes'. BASSA went to court to prevent imposition of crewing levels that they felt were in breach of their 'Agreements' which allocate crew members based on the band of flight. As those 'Agreements' are outside of the industrial limits set by the CAA as to minimum crewing levels then they are just that, Agreements. You, as a Union, can seek injunction against anything you feel is unfair or unworkable. Just because you seek injunction against working practice doesn't necessarily mean that the changes need to be contractually based.
When the ballot comes I would seriously hope that BASSA has something stronger on a contractual level than a bunch of broken agreements that BA don't have to adhere to as BASSA can't be bothered to engage in serious negotiation.
If crewing levels are contractual the please post up here the section where, within the BA cabin crew contract, it states what crewing levels on which aircraft on which routes BA must, contractually, adhere to?
Can't find it? Well, there's a surprise. It is a negotiated agreement.
Another little gem from the all knowing wobble2plank... Would the case be going to court if they weren't contractual?
The answer is 'Yes'. BASSA went to court to prevent imposition of crewing levels that they felt were in breach of their 'Agreements' which allocate crew members based on the band of flight. As those 'Agreements' are outside of the industrial limits set by the CAA as to minimum crewing levels then they are just that, Agreements. You, as a Union, can seek injunction against anything you feel is unfair or unworkable. Just because you seek injunction against working practice doesn't necessarily mean that the changes need to be contractually based.
When the ballot comes I would seriously hope that BASSA has something stronger on a contractual level than a bunch of broken agreements that BA don't have to adhere to as BASSA can't be bothered to engage in serious negotiation.
If crewing levels are contractual the please post up here the section where, within the BA cabin crew contract, it states what crewing levels on which aircraft on which routes BA must, contractually, adhere to?
Can't find it? Well, there's a surprise. It is a negotiated agreement.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 10th Nov 2009 at 08:47.
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Are your kids going to have a stable life if BA impose the planned changes to the other agreements, taking away your fixed rosters and allowances...
How will your kids have stability in their life if their mum (or dad, sorry not sure) is on permanent standby due to another BA imposition?
How will your kids have stability in their life if their mum (or dad, sorry not sure) is on permanent standby due to another BA imposition?
How will your kids have stability in their life if mum or dad is on the dole queue?
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Worldwideflyer
Seriously, BB asked you to use facts and not emotion. It's fine to disagree but do yourself a favour and point out the flaws in BB's post. Why does what he suggests not hold true? Paint a realistic picture of how things might play out. Come on, do it, you're getting a pasting here. You weaken the BASSA argument further with every empty, playground-taunting post.
P.S I'm glad there are now so many BASSA Forum references to PPrune. The more people that head over here and read logical arguments that disagree with the BASSA stance, then the more chance we have of the NO result.
P.P.S I've said it before but as the contrary "little white lie" is still peddled 10 times daily on the BASSA Forum:-
You can't LEGALLY be sacked for taking part in LEGAL industrial action. That doesn't stop BA sacking you and dealing with the consequences months down the line. As one with children, I think that's a hell of a gamble. Just so YOU know what YOU'RE risking if YOU choose to strike.
P.P.P.S I'll pass you on your no-more-than-20-strong picket line on my way in to work. Intimidatory mass picketing isn't allowed nowadays.
BigBrutha....
Don't hold your breath dear boy....
Don't hold your breath dear boy....
P.S I'm glad there are now so many BASSA Forum references to PPrune. The more people that head over here and read logical arguments that disagree with the BASSA stance, then the more chance we have of the NO result.
P.P.S I've said it before but as the contrary "little white lie" is still peddled 10 times daily on the BASSA Forum:-
You can't LEGALLY be sacked for taking part in LEGAL industrial action. That doesn't stop BA sacking you and dealing with the consequences months down the line. As one with children, I think that's a hell of a gamble. Just so YOU know what YOU'RE risking if YOU choose to strike.
P.P.P.S I'll pass you on your no-more-than-20-strong picket line on my way in to work. Intimidatory mass picketing isn't allowed nowadays.
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I read this forum only occassionally and this is my 1st post.
I am a PSR on WW at LHR. I am not in favor of a strike and I personally feel both the Unions and the Company have been abso-bloody-lutely useless in coming together to talk since February (yes it was February the talks started) I think the Company has gone the wrong way about making changes and I think the Unions are too full of Senior CSDs and PSRs to want to change, hence we have a standoff with no end in sight
I am not happy with the crew member coming off because that is another pair of hand's serving our customers, however, I am realistic and am aware that the service although slower and possibly a little erratic in the Premium Club cabin can be delivered.
On several posts on here people have referred to the minimum crew legally carried on other carriers. We are aware we carry more crew but that has always been the agreement because of the level of service offer. Take away the level of service and then yes, by all means reduce the numbers. With respect to my LGW colleagues, whom work incredibly hard, unfortunately the service levels aren't the same. Fewer crew naturally equates to less help available, pax wait longer for their ad-hoc requests, their problems to be addressed and their food to arrive and be taken away. No PSR in the F cabin has meant inconsistencey with the delivery (much the same as main crew on the UD on our jumbo) on occassion, I concede not all the time.
I am concerned about a new fleet, if I was the CEO I would do exactly what I am worried about. I'd bring in youngsters full of energy and enthusiasm and pay them as little as I could. That's business. But for those of us who have worked hard over the years to keep the company going what happens then? I joined BA knowing what I would be earning and my lifestyle reflects that. I am grateful for a job but you know what? BA should be grateful for me to be in that job because everytime I put on my uniform I give 300%. My flights are safe and my passengers are happy, my crew are valued. Does anyone really believe a 20 year old straight out of Uni can possiblY give the same service as a 40 year old with 18 years experience? You get what you pay for and if that's what the Company wants so be it. When the pax start choosing other carriers maybe then the LT will listen. As an aside, safety being our main priority the young ones panic when the chicken runs out, can you imagine their reaction if the a'se end is on fire?
And to my pilots. I have to say to being a little disappointed with some of the more sarcastic comments I've read on here. I am pro pilot. We enjoy very safe flying in this company which we have you and the Engineers to thank for. They keep the aircraft safe and you get us there and back safely. I am the PSR from First who feeds you F class food, makes you a latte during the night, welcomes your clingons with open arms and doesn't treat them with indifference. Please don't be so dis-respectful of what is going on behind that door. While you are sitting there reading 4 newspapers cover to cover, doing 2 of the crosswords, 1 sudoku, discussing at least 2 ex-wives and which of the juniors you are going to pursue
, me and mine are looking after anything up to 350 passengers, keeping the cabin safe and trying to offer a level of service that ensures each and every time they fly they choose BA over any other carrier. That means repeat business and we all keep our jobs. YOU NEED US AS MUCH AS WE NEED YOU.
I am a PSR on WW at LHR. I am not in favor of a strike and I personally feel both the Unions and the Company have been abso-bloody-lutely useless in coming together to talk since February (yes it was February the talks started) I think the Company has gone the wrong way about making changes and I think the Unions are too full of Senior CSDs and PSRs to want to change, hence we have a standoff with no end in sight
I am not happy with the crew member coming off because that is another pair of hand's serving our customers, however, I am realistic and am aware that the service although slower and possibly a little erratic in the Premium Club cabin can be delivered.
On several posts on here people have referred to the minimum crew legally carried on other carriers. We are aware we carry more crew but that has always been the agreement because of the level of service offer. Take away the level of service and then yes, by all means reduce the numbers. With respect to my LGW colleagues, whom work incredibly hard, unfortunately the service levels aren't the same. Fewer crew naturally equates to less help available, pax wait longer for their ad-hoc requests, their problems to be addressed and their food to arrive and be taken away. No PSR in the F cabin has meant inconsistencey with the delivery (much the same as main crew on the UD on our jumbo) on occassion, I concede not all the time.
I am concerned about a new fleet, if I was the CEO I would do exactly what I am worried about. I'd bring in youngsters full of energy and enthusiasm and pay them as little as I could. That's business. But for those of us who have worked hard over the years to keep the company going what happens then? I joined BA knowing what I would be earning and my lifestyle reflects that. I am grateful for a job but you know what? BA should be grateful for me to be in that job because everytime I put on my uniform I give 300%. My flights are safe and my passengers are happy, my crew are valued. Does anyone really believe a 20 year old straight out of Uni can possiblY give the same service as a 40 year old with 18 years experience? You get what you pay for and if that's what the Company wants so be it. When the pax start choosing other carriers maybe then the LT will listen. As an aside, safety being our main priority the young ones panic when the chicken runs out, can you imagine their reaction if the a'se end is on fire?
And to my pilots. I have to say to being a little disappointed with some of the more sarcastic comments I've read on here. I am pro pilot. We enjoy very safe flying in this company which we have you and the Engineers to thank for. They keep the aircraft safe and you get us there and back safely. I am the PSR from First who feeds you F class food, makes you a latte during the night, welcomes your clingons with open arms and doesn't treat them with indifference. Please don't be so dis-respectful of what is going on behind that door. While you are sitting there reading 4 newspapers cover to cover, doing 2 of the crosswords, 1 sudoku, discussing at least 2 ex-wives and which of the juniors you are going to pursue
, me and mine are looking after anything up to 350 passengers, keeping the cabin safe and trying to offer a level of service that ensures each and every time they fly they choose BA over any other carrier. That means repeat business and we all keep our jobs. YOU NEED US AS MUCH AS WE NEED YOU.
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The Main Man,
Thanks for that - I agree almost wholeheartedly with you. My issues are with the manner of BASSA not the crew themselves. We do need one another to be continually successful in this airline.
ATB
MrB
Thanks for that - I agree almost wholeheartedly with you. My issues are with the manner of BASSA not the crew themselves. We do need one another to be continually successful in this airline.
ATB
MrB
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No PSR in the F cabin has meant inconsistencey with the delivery (much the same as main crew on the UD on our jumbo) on occassion, I concede not all the time.
My flights are safe and my passengers are happy, my crew are valued. Does anyone really believe a 20 year old straight out of Uni can possibly give the same service as a 40 year old with 18 years experience? You get what you pay for and if that's what the Company wants so be it. When the pax start choosing other carriers maybe then the LT will listen. As an aside, safety being our main priority the young ones panic when the chicken runs out, can you imagine their reaction if the a'se end is on fire?
I may have only 'flown' for 11 months but I definetly gave 300% on every flight and provided excellent customer service. Whether or not you've flown for 20/30 years bears no relation to your customer services skills. Ofcourse, the aircraft need experienced crew for safety reasons and i'm sure that within your time as crew you have built up a sound knowledge of the aircraft and the possible hazards etc., so please don't think I am dis-respecting your experience in anyway, but to say that a 'young person' is incapable of providing customer service or acting rationally in the event of an emergency is just absurd. Hardly the same comparison, but we do send 18 year olds out to Iraq and such places to fight wars for us, maybe we should be sending people with more experience??
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I fly as a customer form both LHR and LGW with BA and would say the level of on board customer service on flights out of LGW is exactly the same as it is out of LHR., call bells are answered immediately and there is no delay in the delivery of the service or the collecting in afterwards.
One thing that is noticeable is on the short haul LGW flights, they have far fewer cabin crew than they do on same aircraft operating out of LHR (A 319's) when the cabin service is identical.
One thing that is noticeable is on the short haul LGW flights, they have far fewer cabin crew than they do on same aircraft operating out of LHR (A 319's) when the cabin service is identical.
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Exactly I agree with the above. Many posts state that if these impositions happen my family will be affected but I stress IF you strike my family will be more affected if I end up on the dole. At least I will have a job even after the impositions take place and ONLY THEN can I make the decision to leave if worst comes to worst (while I still have a job to fund my job search).
Many posts on here (pro-strike) give off a attitude of 'I don't care, I can walk into another job if the airline goes bust'. Not so, we are in a resession and there a thousands of unemployed looking for jobs. If they can't just walk into a job, how do you expect to?
This is by no means a personal attack on any of my fellow crew members but BASSA who I shall leave after I vote NO. If only they could sit and have a say in our changes, which have to happen, then we might get an ok deal. Instead they want to dictate. That is where they go wrong and they lose my vote.
Many posts on here (pro-strike) give off a attitude of 'I don't care, I can walk into another job if the airline goes bust'. Not so, we are in a resession and there a thousands of unemployed looking for jobs. If they can't just walk into a job, how do you expect to?
This is by no means a personal attack on any of my fellow crew members but BASSA who I shall leave after I vote NO. If only they could sit and have a say in our changes, which have to happen, then we might get an ok deal. Instead they want to dictate. That is where they go wrong and they lose my vote.
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A Thought From a Passenger!
As a frequent BA flyer I have always been happy at the level of service I have received regardless of whether I have flown out of LHR or LGW.
As I am currently abroad working, my 15 colleagues and I are looking into our flights home for the Christmas break and with all the uncertainty surrounding the proposed strike action we have now decided that we have no option but to book with another airline. We have taken this decision based purely on the fact that we want to get home and see our families without the threat of disruption.
The way I see it though is that if 15 of us have taken this option, how many others have. The airline is in a bad state financially and if more and more pax opt for other airlines at this busy time of year surely this can only lead to another bad set of figures in Q3 and ultimately more job cuts.
Apologies for the intrusion into this discussion, but surely the majority of people on here can see the damage that just the threat of a strike is doing to your company, and the possible impact that it could have on your future employment status!
As I am currently abroad working, my 15 colleagues and I are looking into our flights home for the Christmas break and with all the uncertainty surrounding the proposed strike action we have now decided that we have no option but to book with another airline. We have taken this decision based purely on the fact that we want to get home and see our families without the threat of disruption.
The way I see it though is that if 15 of us have taken this option, how many others have. The airline is in a bad state financially and if more and more pax opt for other airlines at this busy time of year surely this can only lead to another bad set of figures in Q3 and ultimately more job cuts.
Apologies for the intrusion into this discussion, but surely the majority of people on here can see the damage that just the threat of a strike is doing to your company, and the possible impact that it could have on your future employment status!
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Just because someone has years of experience doesn't make them a better cabin crew member, i hear this sort of thing alot .Most crew are brilliant and do their jobs well under very trying circumstances at times.
Now though it's time to get with the beat things have changed alot and you need to be make change before it's to late for yourselves .BASSA are playing THEIR game at YOUR expense. I did a nightstop with a shorthaul rep months ago.Frankly this chap is just not credible he opens his mouth without engaging his brain.He made a fool of himself by some of the stuff he was mouthing off about, even the cabin crew said this, but they all pandered to him the next day
.It's sad, however when they were going on to do a link he smartly went off on some union business.
Why couldn't he have done the union business instead of the nightstop and then joined them for the link . Crew are frightened to speak out against the union and just stick together like a pack as they feel safe, but the bottom line now is your NOT safe .
Now though it's time to get with the beat things have changed alot and you need to be make change before it's to late for yourselves .BASSA are playing THEIR game at YOUR expense. I did a nightstop with a shorthaul rep months ago.Frankly this chap is just not credible he opens his mouth without engaging his brain.He made a fool of himself by some of the stuff he was mouthing off about, even the cabin crew said this, but they all pandered to him the next day
.It's sad, however when they were going on to do a link he smartly went off on some union business.Why couldn't he have done the union business instead of the nightstop and then joined them for the link . Crew are frightened to speak out against the union and just stick together like a pack as they feel safe, but the bottom line now is your NOT safe .
Last edited by Weather Map; 10th Nov 2009 at 13:20.
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I did a nightstop with a shorthaul rep months ago.Frankly this chap is just not credible he opens his mouth without engaging his brain.He made a fool of himself by some of the stuff he was mouthing off about, even the cabin crew said this, but they all pandered to him the next day
but to me it seems that there's a trend on the BF as to which posts the Moderators "bump" and which on which ones they allow some "robust" replies.So all they see now is "BASSA 100%", "you're doing a gr8 job!" and "see you on the picket line". It's like the Emperor's New Clothes and it's with this perceived support that they are about to ballot for strike action.
Could be an interesting result.
However, BA will kill it off in court even if it is a YES.
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Main Man -
Please don't be so disrespectful of what is going on in front of that door!!!!
Please don't be so dis-respectful of what is going on behind that door. While you are sitting there reading 4 newspapers cover to cover, doing 2 of the crosswords, 1 sudoku, discussing at least 2 ex-wives and which of the juniors you are going to pursue ,
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Nut Job .
You the membership HAVE the power i'm sorry but anyone who is BA cabin crew IS and i say IS a strong person.You have to be to cope with the demands of that job day in day out. It is up to the membership to get rid of what they don't want only you can do it use your vote wisely.
You the membership HAVE the power i'm sorry but anyone who is BA cabin crew IS and i say IS a strong person.You have to be to cope with the demands of that job day in day out. It is up to the membership to get rid of what they don't want only you can do it use your vote wisely.
A TV debate?
The earlier comparison between some BASSA contributors and Chemical Ali made me think about ways of resolving this dispute without strikes and law cases.
Clearly both BA and Bassa have trouble talking to each other effectively. Clearly Bassa and 89 have trouble talking to each other.
Why not get a decent TV "front" person to host/chair a round table debate? All get to put their point of view, no-one is allowed to leave/storm out, and only fact based contributions are alloed, (rather than rants aimed at individuals/"the unions"/"the managers".
At least the customer - who pays all the bills - and Joe Public will get to understand what this "game" being played out by our national carrier and some of its staff is all about!
Maybe resolve the debate by a public vote??
Clearly both BA and Bassa have trouble talking to each other effectively. Clearly Bassa and 89 have trouble talking to each other.
Why not get a decent TV "front" person to host/chair a round table debate? All get to put their point of view, no-one is allowed to leave/storm out, and only fact based contributions are alloed, (rather than rants aimed at individuals/"the unions"/"the managers".
At least the customer - who pays all the bills - and Joe Public will get to understand what this "game" being played out by our national carrier and some of its staff is all about!
Maybe resolve the debate by a public vote??
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Its good to see more and more crew coming across to Pprune and voicing their opinions.And what I find encouraging is that it seems to be an equal split on numbers between the yes and no camps.If that is extended to the whole community then it means there is a large percentage who are sensible and moderate and will accept that changes are necessary,but aren`t particularly happy with it, however they are not prepared to furthur damage the company by striking.There is still plenty to be negotiated so don`t be a silent voice - write or get in touch with Unite and put your opinion across.
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I agree but lets be realistic here. Cabin Crew will NOT speak out in public against BASSA they are to frightened of what the hardliners will do and say to them .I think Unite know though just how hot headed and out of control BASSA are which is why they put a stop to the last strike back in January 2007.BASSA made a complete fool of the membership then as they are doing now.