British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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And your contribution to the debate is what, exactly, Flying Chick? I take it your compadres on CrewForum have sent you this way. Not exactly a world class addition to this argument. That's why people don't take you seriously because your only single contribution is to rant and scream. There's not one rebuttal or verifiable fact in your post. Demeans you utterly.
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I am not ranting and screaming. 
I am just saying don't be too suprised when WW is long gone and BASSA and crew are still at BA. We are the reason the pax come back time and time again. Understand that and you will know we will not give up without a fight. I do everything for my passengers and will continue to do so. I am here for a good reason.
I am just saying don't be too suprised when WW is long gone and BASSA and crew are still at BA. We are the reason the pax come back time and time again. Understand that and you will know we will not give up without a fight. I do everything for my passengers and will continue to do so. I am here for a good reason.
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BASSA 100% UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL.
How long until UNITE takes its mongrel offshoot by the scruff of the neck and forces it into rudimentary acceptance?
Flying Chick
95% of us our behind our union and MARK MY WORDS WE WILL WIN THIS FIGHT.
100% UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL.
Take that back to CF.
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Sorry but by convention you are screaming. CAPITAL LETTERS are taken as shouting. Further to your diatribe - a meeting at Kempton Park does not back up your assertion that 95% of crew are behind BASSA. You plucked that figure out of thin air. As there's been no ballot or poll of all crew, you can't know the support. Also, personalising it and making it about Willie Walsh - another timeless BASSA favourite. You won't play the ball, you always have to play the man. That's why it's always the pilots' fault, the managers' fault never the world we find ourselves in is it?
The incapability of the most fervent supporters of BASSA to depersonalise this argument is incredible and really means that most of what is said might be ignored. That said, hats off to you for coming over here and joining the debate. Perhaps now, you can do us the courtesy of actually debating facts, not providing a soundbite you can post on Crewforum to get all your other anonymous friends to tell you how clever and witty you've been. Presumably with the use of the word twunt followed by ten posts consisting of nothing but smilies.
To suggest that this place is merely a febrile ground for media hacks is to do it a great disservice. It's an ideal place to have this debate, one of the few where any staff member in BA, or the general public can put their two'pennorth in. Yet most crew seem happier hiding behind the crew only forum and simply massaging each others' egos. To deprecate PPrune when the vitriol that pours forth to the dissenters on Crewforum is still in existence is hypocritical and unworthy of right thinking adults.
Still, you're here and that's something indeed. Bring facts and reasons to the next post and I'd genuinely welcome the debate with you. Think that's possible? I'm not being facetious, would truly welcome it.
Ball's in your collective court BASSA supporters.
MrB
The incapability of the most fervent supporters of BASSA to depersonalise this argument is incredible and really means that most of what is said might be ignored. That said, hats off to you for coming over here and joining the debate. Perhaps now, you can do us the courtesy of actually debating facts, not providing a soundbite you can post on Crewforum to get all your other anonymous friends to tell you how clever and witty you've been. Presumably with the use of the word twunt followed by ten posts consisting of nothing but smilies.
To suggest that this place is merely a febrile ground for media hacks is to do it a great disservice. It's an ideal place to have this debate, one of the few where any staff member in BA, or the general public can put their two'pennorth in. Yet most crew seem happier hiding behind the crew only forum and simply massaging each others' egos. To deprecate PPrune when the vitriol that pours forth to the dissenters on Crewforum is still in existence is hypocritical and unworthy of right thinking adults.
Still, you're here and that's something indeed. Bring facts and reasons to the next post and I'd genuinely welcome the debate with you. Think that's possible? I'm not being facetious, would truly welcome it.
Ball's in your collective court BASSA supporters.
MrB
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I am not taking anything back anywhere, Just to let you all know We are all up for a good fight and whilst I am more than willing to give up a few things I and many others will not let WW take this airline and turn it into some low cost model type crap.
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Oh, and as a minor aside, a little humility might not go amiss either. You're not the only reason passengers come back to BA time and time again. There's a collective of hard working staff from the offices, to the hangars, the terminals and on to the aeroplane who all do their part to promote brand BA and do a bloody fine job. You're a vital cog in the machine. You are not, however, the whole machine. You demean your ground based colleagues with such a comment.
Come on, debate not rhetoric. Tell us where the facts are. Breakdown BASSA's cost saving proposal for us. Tell us why you feel unfairly treated. What are you prepared to do in real terms for BA?
MrB
Come on, debate not rhetoric. Tell us where the facts are. Breakdown BASSA's cost saving proposal for us. Tell us why you feel unfairly treated. What are you prepared to do in real terms for BA?
MrB
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Collective figures for what MR? I am crew and I talk to crew everyday all day and much more than you obviously do and I am telling you the majority of us in fact nearly all are up for a good fight and will all stand together. I go to briefings and we are all together in this. I don't think you have any idea how we are all up for this fight for OUR FUTURE!! We will stand back and give up without a good fight. The truth would have been nice but were lied to time and time again.
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I haven't got the energy to break things down for you but BASSA proposals were more than fair and justified and saving them more than enough money. BA refused.. It isn't about temporary solutions but breaking our FANTASTIC UNION AND WONDERFUL REPS. Not to mention our term and conditions.
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Do me a favour FC, read my posts before you selectively mis-quote me. My use of the word collective referred to the pro-BASSA people in toto. i.e. Here's a forum for debate, please come along (collectively) and join in. You've mentioned the fact you're up for a fight now in 4 posts. Are you now sufficiently satisfied that we've got that message.
Oh and I see plenty of crew and my wife's a CSD and she won't have a bit of BASSA. So there's one off your high percentage.
Oh and I see plenty of crew and my wife's a CSD and she won't have a bit of BASSA. So there's one off your high percentage.
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Let me get this straight. Rather than construct a reasoned argument and convince others that you're right where we may be wrong the best you can do is tell me you've not got the energy to break down the figures? Are you seriously telling me that's the extent of your contribution on here? No wonder people have little time for the empty rhetoric. A few well thought out statements and arguments would get so many more people to be sympathetic to your cause. As I said before as my wife's position is under scrutiny at the moment I've no desire to see crew decimated (I know it's a misuse when it's 2000 out of 14000) but equally I don't find that's justification for the somewhat hysterical reactions of many BASSA supporters. You say the company's lying to you. Based on what evidence do you know it to be a lie? Because BASSA tell you? Is that it? Does your mind not seek a more empirical basis for truth?
Perhaps not.
Perhaps not.
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Of course you don't care about my wife. Presumably because she has the temerity to have a different point of view to yours. 6 posts now FC and you've only said one thing over and over again. What exactly, apart from the same statement, would you like to say?
No energy to try and change minds and influence thinking either I guess?
No energy to try and change minds and influence thinking either I guess?
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Flying chick,
I think you have misjudged the point of this thread. I don't think anyone disputes that BASSA will exist in one shape or another in the future.
Correct representation is essential in this world. The thrust of this whole debate is that BASSA have not represented their whole membership in this dispute due to their unwillingness to enter meaningful debate with the company.
I hope, as do all of my peers and colleagues, that BA will exist as a premium airline in the future. However, in order to do so, as the demographics of air travel change, the way we do business must also change.
Why do we feel so strongly about the position BASSA finds itself in? Simple, there is a strong undercurrent of hostility from a minority of crew who feel that they are in the pivotal position of deciding if the company continues or folds. This, obviously, impacts upon all working at BA, hence the 'interest' in what BASSA are doing.
The haggling will continue tomorrow however the critical point of haggling is that both sides start from a lofty point but concede points until an agreement is reached.
As BASSA have excelled at the 'No' approach for so long it must be difficult to react to a management position where they are standing up to the threats of the union.
I think you have misjudged the point of this thread. I don't think anyone disputes that BASSA will exist in one shape or another in the future.
Correct representation is essential in this world. The thrust of this whole debate is that BASSA have not represented their whole membership in this dispute due to their unwillingness to enter meaningful debate with the company.
I hope, as do all of my peers and colleagues, that BA will exist as a premium airline in the future. However, in order to do so, as the demographics of air travel change, the way we do business must also change.
Why do we feel so strongly about the position BASSA finds itself in? Simple, there is a strong undercurrent of hostility from a minority of crew who feel that they are in the pivotal position of deciding if the company continues or folds. This, obviously, impacts upon all working at BA, hence the 'interest' in what BASSA are doing.
The haggling will continue tomorrow however the critical point of haggling is that both sides start from a lofty point but concede points until an agreement is reached.
As BASSA have excelled at the 'No' approach for so long it must be difficult to react to a management position where they are standing up to the threats of the union.
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All enjoyable banter aside Flying Chick, W2P's point neatly sums up the thinking outside the BASSA house. I would genuinely be delighted to have the debate with you. There are undoubtedly things that I am unaware of and, if someone with a pro-BASSA mindset can bring those to light in a calm and dispassionate manner then that can only be a good thing surely? Will you do it? Please.
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first off why don't you give us facts about why BASSA have not been telling the truth?
I am telling you that I have seen the documents that BA want and BASSA have proposed and it is more than fair. What more do I have to say to tell you but that BA have lied to us about what they are up to. There was never a new fleet but we were going to be on the new fleet!!
After being told we wouldn't have much of our pay touched, BA proposals were the worst ever seen. I could earn more in tesco. They cannot possibly expect us to accept those awful term and conditions. Why would anyone accept that? Maybe a 20 year old with no mortgage who might want to have fun for two years and bother turning up when they feel like it.
If BA were honest and upfront and offered us a temporary solution we would have accepted ride the recession out. I would gladly have a pay cut for a couple of years but there is more to it than that and you know it!!
I will not accept permanent changes to my pay and term and conditions that BASSA and previous cabin crew fought hard for.
BASSA 100%
I am telling you that I have seen the documents that BA want and BASSA have proposed and it is more than fair. What more do I have to say to tell you but that BA have lied to us about what they are up to. There was never a new fleet but we were going to be on the new fleet!!
After being told we wouldn't have much of our pay touched, BA proposals were the worst ever seen. I could earn more in tesco. They cannot possibly expect us to accept those awful term and conditions. Why would anyone accept that? Maybe a 20 year old with no mortgage who might want to have fun for two years and bother turning up when they feel like it.
If BA were honest and upfront and offered us a temporary solution we would have accepted ride the recession out. I would gladly have a pay cut for a couple of years but there is more to it than that and you know it!!
I will not accept permanent changes to my pay and term and conditions that BASSA and previous cabin crew fought hard for.BASSA 100%
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I didn't say BASSA hadn't been telling the truth, I asked you to bring me the facts so we can debate the merits/demerits of them all. It's not about pointing accusatory fingers. I've seen the BASSA document too and it doesn't say a thing. Numbers plucked from the air aren't true because they come from a source you trust over another. Verification's the key. For example, the £60m diversion cost savings. How exactly did BASSA break that one down. After all they took BA's total cost of £20m per diversion and attributed every single penny of the savings to themselves. When BA think that £57m of that is lost revenue, you just can't argue that coming home a day sooner after a diversion is saving that much income to the company. So, if BASSA are right, how does that one break down? That's what I mean by facts we can debate. I understand completely your instincts lead you to trust your union. Mine do too with BALPA for that matter. The argument temporary/permanent has been done for a while now to me - the world economy has changed structurally and most likely forever. So must we with it.
If, however, you'd like an example of how BASSA can be a little sparing with the truth here you go. One of our senior reps personally sent a copy of our agreement to your branch chairperson. They then claimed they found it lying round a hotel. When BASSA's proposal came out they claimed the pay cut was identical to ours. The basic pay cut was, at 2.61% but BASSA neglected to mention the additional £2 per hour cut from our flying pay. That wasn't mirrored in the proposal. Everyone shapes the world and what they see in it to fit their own needs but that came across as shameless opportunism to me.
However we do need representatives in an organisation such as BA. If BASSA is your chosen group and your chosen style then I wish you well. From the outside looking in however, it's not as well regarded I fear.
Perhaps if BASSA had really worked towards the Jun 30 deadline there might have been an agreement. There might have been a bonus package, I really don't know. The trouble now is it's down to the scrapping and for all that I fear the worst. There's a lot of legal weight behind BA and a lot of recourses for them. Don't doubt for a moment they'll use all of them.
If, however, you'd like an example of how BASSA can be a little sparing with the truth here you go. One of our senior reps personally sent a copy of our agreement to your branch chairperson. They then claimed they found it lying round a hotel. When BASSA's proposal came out they claimed the pay cut was identical to ours. The basic pay cut was, at 2.61% but BASSA neglected to mention the additional £2 per hour cut from our flying pay. That wasn't mirrored in the proposal. Everyone shapes the world and what they see in it to fit their own needs but that came across as shameless opportunism to me.
However we do need representatives in an organisation such as BA. If BASSA is your chosen group and your chosen style then I wish you well. From the outside looking in however, it's not as well regarded I fear.
Perhaps if BASSA had really worked towards the Jun 30 deadline there might have been an agreement. There might have been a bonus package, I really don't know. The trouble now is it's down to the scrapping and for all that I fear the worst. There's a lot of legal weight behind BA and a lot of recourses for them. Don't doubt for a moment they'll use all of them.
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I am here to tell you all that WE WILL WIN.
What do you and your fellow BASSA member's think this victory will actually look like?
WW removed from his position?
No change to your Ts and Cs?
The implementation of the BASSA proposals (including a 2.61% pay reduction)?
Over the last few months an increasing number of the crew I fly with have made it clear that they are willing to change certain aspects of their contracts in order to protect their livelihoods. I wouldn't claim that they are the majority but are a significant number (greater than 5%!).
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yes but have you spoken to this minority lately?? Like I said We would all accommodate a temp change to our pay but not permanent. I cannot say much more than this because I don't understand why most of you are so concerned about us? Are you crew? what are you?? 
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BASSA haven't fought hard for anything since the privatisation of the company.
If anything approached the T's & C's of LHR then BASSA hacked limbs off to preserve the core. Manchester, Birmingham and Gatwick all got hacked in the interest of preserving the core LH T's & C's.
The only reason that BASSA have enjoyed their stay of execution is due to weak, ineffectual management in the past. They are having this horror scenario now because, finally, the management has the courage to take on the union and get the pay and terms down to market rate.
Price Waterhouse Coopers, one of the top 4 independent accounting houses in the world has judged the BASSA figures to be woefully inadequate, permanent or not. £174m from BASSA in real terms being £54m as judged by PwC. the temporary BASSA figures included gross savings which encompassed a variety of other departments not just the CC.
However, as PwC has the temerity to disagree with BASSA they have been branded 'in the pocket' of BA.
Other departments have been living with the merged allowances for 5 years now. BASSA throws the 'basic' pay figure about without bothering to add on the allowances pay which, for the uninitiated, is taxed at a lower level than 'normal' pay hence giving you a greater 'chunk' in your pocket.
Where have BA not been honest and upfront? The 'leaked' document was the BA start point for negotiation which was done under a veil of secrecy at the request of BASSA? We have all been seeing this coming since the inception of project Columbus.
Wake up Flying Chick, the BASSA rhetoric is passing everybody by now. The company seems to be willing to take a strike and positioning itself for contract imposition. Only a few of the 'die hards' can't see it.
Good luck.
If anything approached the T's & C's of LHR then BASSA hacked limbs off to preserve the core. Manchester, Birmingham and Gatwick all got hacked in the interest of preserving the core LH T's & C's.
The only reason that BASSA have enjoyed their stay of execution is due to weak, ineffectual management in the past. They are having this horror scenario now because, finally, the management has the courage to take on the union and get the pay and terms down to market rate.
Price Waterhouse Coopers, one of the top 4 independent accounting houses in the world has judged the BASSA figures to be woefully inadequate, permanent or not. £174m from BASSA in real terms being £54m as judged by PwC. the temporary BASSA figures included gross savings which encompassed a variety of other departments not just the CC.
However, as PwC has the temerity to disagree with BASSA they have been branded 'in the pocket' of BA.
Other departments have been living with the merged allowances for 5 years now. BASSA throws the 'basic' pay figure about without bothering to add on the allowances pay which, for the uninitiated, is taxed at a lower level than 'normal' pay hence giving you a greater 'chunk' in your pocket.
Where have BA not been honest and upfront? The 'leaked' document was the BA start point for negotiation which was done under a veil of secrecy at the request of BASSA? We have all been seeing this coming since the inception of project Columbus.
Wake up Flying Chick, the BASSA rhetoric is passing everybody by now. The company seems to be willing to take a strike and positioning itself for contract imposition. Only a few of the 'die hards' can't see it.
Good luck.
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and just to add about that lovely hun who said the minority in the briefing. nearly all my briefings someone mentions not to sign any contracts and refuse. So, I do think, you will find that the majority of crew are well behind our union.
BASSA 100%
BASSA 100%