British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CFC,
What you also must start realising soon, is that this thread isn't about Bassa-bashing. It is about speaking out -using facts. Bassas main problem is that they haven't told the truth and have been rather selective with the information to their members.
I'd be happy to discuss this whole thread with you face to face - no pseudonyms (in uniform if you need proof of my wings) if that's what you want. I stand by everything I've said on this thread.
This thread isn't about scaremongering either. Posters have presented facts, information, links and suchlike to help us get informed and using our own brain and judgement. If you wish to not believe this, that's your perogative, but it is quite frustrating just listening to the name calling (not saying you in particular have done that) and "I'll stand by Bassa no matter what" without being able to back it up with facts and true information.
I do wish you luck, because you and your friends will certainly need it. The rest of us will have to hope for the best, as the "die-hard militants" (for lack of a better word) are putting our contracts and jobs on the line by their attitude and refusal to change.
Gg
What you also must start realising soon, is that this thread isn't about Bassa-bashing. It is about speaking out -using facts. Bassas main problem is that they haven't told the truth and have been rather selective with the information to their members.
I'd be happy to discuss this whole thread with you face to face - no pseudonyms (in uniform if you need proof of my wings) if that's what you want. I stand by everything I've said on this thread.
This thread isn't about scaremongering either. Posters have presented facts, information, links and suchlike to help us get informed and using our own brain and judgement. If you wish to not believe this, that's your perogative, but it is quite frustrating just listening to the name calling (not saying you in particular have done that) and "I'll stand by Bassa no matter what" without being able to back it up with facts and true information.
I do wish you luck, because you and your friends will certainly need it. The rest of us will have to hope for the best, as the "die-hard militants" (for lack of a better word) are putting our contracts and jobs on the line by their attitude and refusal to change.
Gg
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CFC and those who execrate this forum here and elsewhere, might I suggest that the argument that extends beyond this one here about the current situation is not as simple as saying "if you're not with us, you're against us". I don't wish to endeavour to speak for Nutjob, Gg, Nuigini and those who feel the way they do as I don't doubt their ample capability to do so for themselves.
However, the stifling of debate by those who are sympathetic to BASSA leaves many (my wife included, who I do have permission to speak on behalf of here) with a feeling of discomfort that their views are not solicited, that a set of proposals are presented "on their behalf" without consultation or poll, and that to profess any kind of view which purports to have considered both sides of the argument and has decided that BA might just have a point too are met with threats (some of physical violence) delivered under the veil of anonymity, cries for those who do not "stand united" to leave the forum as, it would appear that the forums in question are not for thoughtful debate but merely to raise numbers of those engaged in the same thought processes.
It's not for me to state definitively if the time has long since passed for representation and emotional engenderment of such a kind as I've only known the military (where, most will know, there is no union representation) and BALPA, whom I consider thoughtful in the main even when I may not agree with the majority view, however, it does strike me that there is a significant number which grows that finds being asked to constantly rally behind a banner of belligerence increasingly not to their individual tastes. I write this not as a supporter of BA's management practices at times (indeed as a Mod wrote many pages ago, it's highly arguable that the two parties created and deserve one another wholeheartedly) but as someone who is unsure of the tenability of continued relations in such a manner.
Union power has diminished considerably since the 1970s and the way forward now seems destined to be by partnership and negotiation if the wish is truly to achieve something. Negotiation on both sides, granted, and not the semi-silence of BA over the past few months, nor the rabble-rousing letters calling for the board to sack WW, calling him and KW libellous names under the (legally doubtful) umbrella of anonymous fora.
I don't suppose this will make a jot of difference but I'd ask you to take one point and consider it thoughtfully. Look at the playground names that some of your colleagues use when referring to senior BA management, some flight crew and those of their colleagues who don't see the world their way. It's not really reciprocated in anything like the same amount by the people that are being libelled in such a manner.
It's been pointed out on here by me and others that freedom of speech does not include the right to defame or malign an individual or group under the auspices of a made-up user name. To think that, if this goes to the wire, all avenues won't be pursued in the need for 2000 head-count reduction, up to and including sequestration of all e-comms, related fora and, thus, the real names behind the users is, potentially naive and leaving one open to a very real and punishing broadside.
I've asked for it before and here I go again, but let's all elevate this debate beyond the playground, furnish it with facts and reasoned argument and then, if after all that is done, we can't agree, then we should at least be able to agree to disagree like mature, thinking adults. Reading something that doesn't fit your view of the world on Pprune doesn't give you the right to go and excoriate this website elsewhere simply because it doesn't go along with your thinking.
I hold no malice to any individual or group by saying this, just that we need to drag this from the gutter, whence it heads rapidly.
However, the stifling of debate by those who are sympathetic to BASSA leaves many (my wife included, who I do have permission to speak on behalf of here) with a feeling of discomfort that their views are not solicited, that a set of proposals are presented "on their behalf" without consultation or poll, and that to profess any kind of view which purports to have considered both sides of the argument and has decided that BA might just have a point too are met with threats (some of physical violence) delivered under the veil of anonymity, cries for those who do not "stand united" to leave the forum as, it would appear that the forums in question are not for thoughtful debate but merely to raise numbers of those engaged in the same thought processes.
It's not for me to state definitively if the time has long since passed for representation and emotional engenderment of such a kind as I've only known the military (where, most will know, there is no union representation) and BALPA, whom I consider thoughtful in the main even when I may not agree with the majority view, however, it does strike me that there is a significant number which grows that finds being asked to constantly rally behind a banner of belligerence increasingly not to their individual tastes. I write this not as a supporter of BA's management practices at times (indeed as a Mod wrote many pages ago, it's highly arguable that the two parties created and deserve one another wholeheartedly) but as someone who is unsure of the tenability of continued relations in such a manner.
Union power has diminished considerably since the 1970s and the way forward now seems destined to be by partnership and negotiation if the wish is truly to achieve something. Negotiation on both sides, granted, and not the semi-silence of BA over the past few months, nor the rabble-rousing letters calling for the board to sack WW, calling him and KW libellous names under the (legally doubtful) umbrella of anonymous fora.
I don't suppose this will make a jot of difference but I'd ask you to take one point and consider it thoughtfully. Look at the playground names that some of your colleagues use when referring to senior BA management, some flight crew and those of their colleagues who don't see the world their way. It's not really reciprocated in anything like the same amount by the people that are being libelled in such a manner.
It's been pointed out on here by me and others that freedom of speech does not include the right to defame or malign an individual or group under the auspices of a made-up user name. To think that, if this goes to the wire, all avenues won't be pursued in the need for 2000 head-count reduction, up to and including sequestration of all e-comms, related fora and, thus, the real names behind the users is, potentially naive and leaving one open to a very real and punishing broadside.
I've asked for it before and here I go again, but let's all elevate this debate beyond the playground, furnish it with facts and reasoned argument and then, if after all that is done, we can't agree, then we should at least be able to agree to disagree like mature, thinking adults. Reading something that doesn't fit your view of the world on Pprune doesn't give you the right to go and excoriate this website elsewhere simply because it doesn't go along with your thinking.
I hold no malice to any individual or group by saying this, just that we need to drag this from the gutter, whence it heads rapidly.
Last edited by MrBunker; 2nd Aug 2009 at 12:43.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Reading
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr B, my recollection is that there was a need for a 2000 headcount reduction prior to the 30 June deadline.
Now, in the brave new world we find ourselves is, on board catering has been reduced on shorthaul, and more aircraft are being stood down.
I suspect that the target will now be a figure much larger than the 2000 originally mentioned.
Oh, and for the benefit of PiB, Joshua, and others, I am happy to have my pay reduced and to work harder!!
Now, in the brave new world we find ourselves is, on board catering has been reduced on shorthaul, and more aircraft are being stood down.
I suspect that the target will now be a figure much larger than the 2000 originally mentioned.
Oh, and for the benefit of PiB, Joshua, and others, I am happy to have my pay reduced and to work harder!!
Last edited by Andyismyname; 2nd Aug 2009 at 15:31.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Andy, that may well be the case by now but as the last piece of stated information I had to hand was the figure I quoted I felt I'd best stick with it, especially as I ended my piece with a call for facts!
Doesn't diminish your very valid point one iota though.
Kind regards,
MrB
Doesn't diminish your very valid point one iota though.
Kind regards,
MrB
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I live like a gypsy.
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Andy you are "happy to have your pay reduced and to work harder". What a dream employee you are, but so out of touch with reality, you cannot possibly be BA cabin crew.
BASSA members are rock solid behind their union. Compared to competitor airlines in europe, BA's first quarter loss is peanuts and would not exist if 40% of BA's fuel for 2010 had not been hedged at U$94 a barrel.
If BA was such a well run airline, people like the captain of the BA038 would not be resigning. Walsh is the person who should resign especially over OpenSkies, but hides behind the laughable suggestion it can be sold. How much more proof is required that BA is being managed by twits? The recent debacle over reducing the product onboard confrims this.
BASSA members are rock solid behind their union. Compared to competitor airlines in europe, BA's first quarter loss is peanuts and would not exist if 40% of BA's fuel for 2010 had not been hedged at U$94 a barrel.
If BA was such a well run airline, people like the captain of the BA038 would not be resigning. Walsh is the person who should resign especially over OpenSkies, but hides behind the laughable suggestion it can be sold. How much more proof is required that BA is being managed by twits? The recent debacle over reducing the product onboard confrims this.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Surrey
Age: 67
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
General Comment.
As an ex-employee, I find this whole argument absolutely unbelievable.
At the end of the day everybody wants a job that will pay the bills etc. It does seem to me that no-one in the Cabin Crew department actually wants a job after November 2009. This should be fine as ex-Virgin CC should be available for training and fitting for a change of uniform. I am sure that there are a few FR CC who wouldn't mind a job where they do not have to pay for their uniform as well.
I think that you all have to wake up and "smell the coffee". If BASSA is happy to bring the company down, who will still have a job when BA has dissappeared? Answer: BASSA Reps.
I rest my case.
At the end of the day everybody wants a job that will pay the bills etc. It does seem to me that no-one in the Cabin Crew department actually wants a job after November 2009. This should be fine as ex-Virgin CC should be available for training and fitting for a change of uniform. I am sure that there are a few FR CC who wouldn't mind a job where they do not have to pay for their uniform as well.
I think that you all have to wake up and "smell the coffee". If BASSA is happy to bring the company down, who will still have a job when BA has dissappeared? Answer: BASSA Reps.
I rest my case.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: BrisVegas
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Sydney Morning Herald:
British Airways says it sees signs of hope
Steve Rothwell
August 3, 2009
SHARES in British Airways rose sharply after it said passenger numbers and seat occupancy were showing signs of improvement, suggesting it may recover from the recession faster than Air France-KLM Group.
On Friday British Airways reported a £106 million ($212 million) net loss in the three months to June, its worst first-quarter figures for 22 years. Air France lost €431 million ($735 million). Analysts had expected €194 million. The stock fell 4.1 per cent.
BA advanced 6 per cent after its chief executive, Willie Walsh, said that while yields or ticket prices may fall further, volumes and occupancy are likely to improve in the next few months. Quarterly sales fell 12 per cent to £1.98 billion, compared with a 19 per cent decline at Air France.
BA rose 8.1 pence to 142.4 pence in London, its biggest gain since May 5.
Air France’s results are also trailing those of Lufthansa, the regional No. 2, which posted a €216 million second-quarter loss on Wednesday.
British Airways has delayed aircraft deliveries and cut back in-flight catering and is in talks to eliminate as many as 4000 jobs. Mr Walsh said last month that Europe’s third-largest carrier had also raised $US1 billion ($1.2 billion) in new funds to bolster cash reserves.
A decline in yields, or average passenger revenues, will accelerate this quarter as fewer people fly in first and business class and a drop in the price of oil prompts the carrier to cut surcharges on ticket prices, BA said.
‘‘The industry continues to face very difficult trading conditions, with considerable uncertainty over the likely time frame of the recovery,’’ Mr Walsh said on a conference call. ‘‘We continue to work towards a permanent structural change to our employee cost base, which is essential to our short term survival and long term viability.’’
Passenger traffic fell 3.2 per cent, led by the slump in premium travel, BA said. The proportion of seats filled, slid 0.1 percentage points to 77.6 per cent. At Air France, traffic dropped 5.8 per cent and the load factor slipped 0.9 points to 79.4 per cent.
The International Air Transport Association has said airlines may lose $US9 billion this year and sales may drop 15 per cent, a forecast that Mr Walsh has called optimistic.
BA has been mired in talks with unions as it seeks to push through job and pay cuts with ground staff and cabin crew. Negotiations with the Unite union, which represents 14,000 flight attendants, ended on July 23 without agreement and the two sides are in a 14-day ‘‘cooling off period’’.
The airline has agreed terms with pilots to cut 78 jobs, reduce pay by 2.6 per cent, boost working hours and pare benefits. It has also reached an accord with engineers.
BA, which tried and failed to merge with Qantas last year, is in talks with Iberia about an all-share merger to create an airline with bases in London and Madrid, and is seeking permission for a tie-up with American Airlines that would cement its dominance on lucrative North Atlantic routes.
Steve Rothwell
August 3, 2009
SHARES in British Airways rose sharply after it said passenger numbers and seat occupancy were showing signs of improvement, suggesting it may recover from the recession faster than Air France-KLM Group.
On Friday British Airways reported a £106 million ($212 million) net loss in the three months to June, its worst first-quarter figures for 22 years. Air France lost €431 million ($735 million). Analysts had expected €194 million. The stock fell 4.1 per cent.
BA advanced 6 per cent after its chief executive, Willie Walsh, said that while yields or ticket prices may fall further, volumes and occupancy are likely to improve in the next few months. Quarterly sales fell 12 per cent to £1.98 billion, compared with a 19 per cent decline at Air France.
BA rose 8.1 pence to 142.4 pence in London, its biggest gain since May 5.
Air France’s results are also trailing those of Lufthansa, the regional No. 2, which posted a €216 million second-quarter loss on Wednesday.
British Airways has delayed aircraft deliveries and cut back in-flight catering and is in talks to eliminate as many as 4000 jobs. Mr Walsh said last month that Europe’s third-largest carrier had also raised $US1 billion ($1.2 billion) in new funds to bolster cash reserves.
A decline in yields, or average passenger revenues, will accelerate this quarter as fewer people fly in first and business class and a drop in the price of oil prompts the carrier to cut surcharges on ticket prices, BA said.
‘‘The industry continues to face very difficult trading conditions, with considerable uncertainty over the likely time frame of the recovery,’’ Mr Walsh said on a conference call. ‘‘We continue to work towards a permanent structural change to our employee cost base, which is essential to our short term survival and long term viability.’’
Passenger traffic fell 3.2 per cent, led by the slump in premium travel, BA said. The proportion of seats filled, slid 0.1 percentage points to 77.6 per cent. At Air France, traffic dropped 5.8 per cent and the load factor slipped 0.9 points to 79.4 per cent.
The International Air Transport Association has said airlines may lose $US9 billion this year and sales may drop 15 per cent, a forecast that Mr Walsh has called optimistic.
BA has been mired in talks with unions as it seeks to push through job and pay cuts with ground staff and cabin crew. Negotiations with the Unite union, which represents 14,000 flight attendants, ended on July 23 without agreement and the two sides are in a 14-day ‘‘cooling off period’’.
The airline has agreed terms with pilots to cut 78 jobs, reduce pay by 2.6 per cent, boost working hours and pare benefits. It has also reached an accord with engineers.
BA, which tried and failed to merge with Qantas last year, is in talks with Iberia about an all-share merger to create an airline with bases in London and Madrid, and is seeking permission for a tie-up with American Airlines that would cement its dominance on lucrative North Atlantic routes.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Surrey
Age: 67
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Structural Change!
PIB,
It is all academic, the change will happen. You have to decide if you want to be part of it or not.
Unfortunately I suspect that you do not want to be part of the future, just maybe end up as one of those people who will always say "If only they had done what I advised".
Good luck at the jobcentre.
It is all academic, the change will happen. You have to decide if you want to be part of it or not.
Unfortunately I suspect that you do not want to be part of the future, just maybe end up as one of those people who will always say "If only they had done what I advised".
Good luck at the jobcentre.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BASSA vs Luddites - spot the differences - discuss
The working word of most people in the UK have changed to some extent or another in the last year. A job with amended salaries, t's&c's is better than the job centre.
National carries do fail - SR, SN and by the laws of economics so should have AZ.
The working word of most people in the UK have changed to some extent or another in the last year. A job with amended salaries, t's&c's is better than the job centre.
National carries do fail - SR, SN and by the laws of economics so should have AZ.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Malone
Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I suspect that Poof will still have a job as he clearly forms part of the union hierarchy and, as such, has his salary paid for by the members and not BA. He is one of the un-reconstituted 1970's communist breed whose time has come and long since gone. As a union official, you can bet your bottom dollar that he will be on days off on any strike action - just like the rest of them.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I suspect that Poof will still have a job as he clearly forms part of the union hierarchy and, as such, has his salary paid for by the members and not BA. He is one of the un-reconstituted 1970's communist breed whose time has come and long since gone. As a union official, you can bet your bottom dollar that he will be on days off on any strike action - just like the rest of them.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I suspect that Poof will still have a job as he is clearly part of the union hierarchy
I'm very comfortable with knowing that by not striking I'll have a shot at keeping my job when this is all over. That's if PiB and his ilk don't take BA down in the meantime.
We need to compromise and negotiate. A negotiated solution will be less painful than BA's imposition. Get back to the negotiating table PiB and don't underestimate Willie. He means business and I think you're going to have to backtrack a long way if you're to avoid his wrath. If you can do that, we may all keep working long enough to see another year at BA.
By the way PiB, I reckon I have a good idea how little sleep you're getting at the moment and it can't be a lot. This is not goading, but surely the penny has dropped as to just how deep you've taken your BASSA members - those that believe the union line.
Last edited by Nutjob; 2nd Aug 2009 at 20:47.
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Top Bunk: Union trolls, rather like Tony Woodley:
BASSA members: your subscription is clearly being put to good use 
The biggest winner is Tony Woodley, joint general secretary of Unite, Britain’s biggest trade union with 2m members. His pay and benefits package increased by 20% from £88,359 to £105,761 last year, according to official accounts.
The revelation comes as Unite members who work as cabin crew at British Airways (BA) are threatening industrial action over proposed job cuts and a pay freeze.
Woodley’s salary rose by 10% to £93,815 between 2007 and 2008, compared with a public sector average of 2.8%.
He also received a £6,603 benefit from a cut-price union loan towards a maisonette he and Unite are buying in south London and £5,343 in car fuel benefit.
Documents filed with the trade union certification office, a regulatory body, reveal that Derek Simpson, 64, Unite’s other joint general secretary, received a salary of £97,027, up 4% on the previous year, housing benefit of £38,340 and £24,480 toward his chauffeur-driven car.
The revelation comes as Unite members who work as cabin crew at British Airways (BA) are threatening industrial action over proposed job cuts and a pay freeze.
Woodley’s salary rose by 10% to £93,815 between 2007 and 2008, compared with a public sector average of 2.8%.
He also received a £6,603 benefit from a cut-price union loan towards a maisonette he and Unite are buying in south London and £5,343 in car fuel benefit.
Documents filed with the trade union certification office, a regulatory body, reveal that Derek Simpson, 64, Unite’s other joint general secretary, received a salary of £97,027, up 4% on the previous year, housing benefit of £38,340 and £24,480 toward his chauffeur-driven car.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: 340 and climbing
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a BASSA official, PiB will be fine.
The rest of BA cabin crew will lose their jobs and livelihoods, but PiB and his ilk will be just fine.
From the link in post 879:
If you are BA cabin crew and would like an independent assessment of your rights in case of a strike, please read this: link
The rest of BA cabin crew will lose their jobs and livelihoods, but PiB and his ilk will be just fine.
From the link in post 879:
It seems that UK law has focused much more on protecting the organisers of industrial action from legal liability and less on the individual worker for whom there is no regime of statutory immunity. Therefore the freedom to take industrial action is undermined completely as the individual worker will jeopardise the continuation of his or her employment.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Reading
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PiB, you are getting a little boring. I am BA Cabin Crew. My partner and I have considered our circumstances, and that of the world economy. We are willing to accept a paycut, and to work harder. We live in the real world, where our mortgage is. PiB, we hope you believe your own rhetoric, we do not. I am no longer willing carry the excessive payrates of CSD's and Senior old Pursers to our detriment.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I live like a gypsy.
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Telegraph is absolutely right. If it wasn't for the unions, we would already be in a strike situation, such is the feeling of resentment against Walsh and his cohorts amongst the vast majority of BA's cabin crew. The leaders of the GMB and UNITE have actually prevented confrontation. So whilst Walsh tries to talk BA "into an early grave" and stokes up confrontation, it is actually the unions who are acting more responsibly, in the interests of members jobs and the future viability of British Airways.
For any uninitiated reader of the posts here in this thread, there is a central theme: it is a relentles propaganda campaign orchestrated through this supposedly unbiased forum, against the unions. Posts that ridicule Walsh and suppport BASSA are regularly 'pruned' out by the Mods, and any excuse to ban contributors is found. That is why there is hardly anyone posting a dissenting voice.
For any uninitiated reader of the posts here in this thread, there is a central theme: it is a relentles propaganda campaign orchestrated through this supposedly unbiased forum, against the unions. Posts that ridicule Walsh and suppport BASSA are regularly 'pruned' out by the Mods, and any excuse to ban contributors is found. That is why there is hardly anyone posting a dissenting voice.
Last edited by Poof in Boots; 2nd Aug 2009 at 21:34.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: LONDON
Age: 44
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PIB Chill out take a deep breath. You are a silly so and so. Can't you see you are winding yourself up? You have been baited on here and fallen for it hook line and sinker?
The people on here claiming to be cabin crew how can you be 100% sure they are?
Don't wind yourself up. Lets wait and see what happens over the next few weeks.
Mandy xxx
The people on here claiming to be cabin crew how can you be 100% sure they are?
Don't wind yourself up. Lets wait and see what happens over the next few weeks.
Mandy xxx
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah! Send the letters out, and we'll enjoy the spectacle of 50% of the crew signing them immediately, the majority of the remainder signing them later. Sounds like Willies waiting game is unsettling PiB!