British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Yes, as every day that passes, the predicitons of doom and gloom by Walsh appear more and more hollow. But BA's pilots were suckered in by this fantasy scenario.
And you know more than all the equity analysts in the City as well?
I am not greedy. I work hard and deserve every penny. I am on the new contract and hardly earning a mint and I deserve it fairly.
I'm not sure why you would support BASSA's stance, or at a minimum inject some discussion into their stance?
In fact, I am at a loss to understand why anyone would not want to inject debate into the mix, whatever their stance.
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I think you and I both know that BA want more than 2.6. As for the record I stand behind BASSA all the way. I will NEVER accept BA proposals ever!!
And believe me when I say that the vast majority of crew won't either.
And believe me when I say that the vast majority of crew won't either.
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oh and for the record I stand by my older colleagues 100%. I don't care for quick promotion etc. I like how things are. We get good rest inbetween flights thank you BASSA, CAT allowances again thank you BASSA, Long day payments, extra time payments etc etc and excellent support when we need it. I get to request 18 hours off when I am over worked, again thank you Bassa and thank you to all my older colleagues who fought hard for me to enjoy this.
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But BA didn't want any money out of you at all in the first place...they only wanted productivity savings and the streamlining of allowances, which would have benefitted junior crew to the detriment of those on the old contracts, who somehow manage always to get the route with the best allowances.
You can indeed be supportive of your union and its negotiations, but ultimately the end-point of negotiations or indeed a strike is the agreement of company and union. At some point one or the others' views will move and through negotiation a settlement will or should be reached.
As you are new contract crew, why would you not want transparency, and elimination of a system that systematically screws you for the benefit of elder crew?
You can indeed be supportive of your union and its negotiations, but ultimately the end-point of negotiations or indeed a strike is the agreement of company and union. At some point one or the others' views will move and through negotiation a settlement will or should be reached.
As you are new contract crew, why would you not want transparency, and elimination of a system that systematically screws you for the benefit of elder crew?
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If you don't care for promotion, why are you happy to see the corrupt few at the top take the best routes and best allowances then?
If you are WorldWide, there is little extra that you can squeeze in productivity anyway - in which case you accept the allowance streamlining and negotiate on some of the wilder BA proposals for 24-hour layovers on longhaul, citing the fact that in a safety-critical position, that schedule would not be permitted to flight crew and should also not be permitted for cabin crew...
With one duty payment and no further ancillary payments, you know what you get every month and don't have to sit there hoping you get Narita / Singapore.
If you are WorldWide, there is little extra that you can squeeze in productivity anyway - in which case you accept the allowance streamlining and negotiate on some of the wilder BA proposals for 24-hour layovers on longhaul, citing the fact that in a safety-critical position, that schedule would not be permitted to flight crew and should also not be permitted for cabin crew...
With one duty payment and no further ancillary payments, you know what you get every month and don't have to sit there hoping you get Narita / Singapore.
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I am sorry did you miss BA proposals they wanted an hourly rate. 
I would lose at least £300-400 a month. No thank you and dont tell me otherwise I work for ex-lgw all the time and they say never to accept the new contract.
I would lose at least £300-400 a month. No thank you and dont tell me otherwise I work for ex-lgw all the time and they say never to accept the new contract.
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An hourly rate that you know is coming in every month on top of your salary. An hourly duty payment that means you no longer have to depend on going to the best destinations to get the best allowances. And an hourly rate that leaves all crew getting a fair deal whether they fly to Narita or Accra.
If you are instead EF - how about flying hour rates that mean you do 4-sector days and go home, instead of sitting around at LHR for excessive time periods?
I reckon that you probably do more duty hours per year than an EJ crew, sitting around the airport doing fewer flying hours, whereas with flexibility that does not exist in the contract at present, you would be flying more and sitting at home more. I know what I would want.
Yes, you need the union to protect you against idiots in BA management, of which there are many, but you would be incentivised to fly more and get more quality time at home if the flexibility existed to run the schedule more tightly with the same crew on the same aircraft into and out of LHR in the middle of the day.
We're happy to debate in a rational manner; we're not all out to get you on this forum - but please at least listen to other viewpoints...
If you are instead EF - how about flying hour rates that mean you do 4-sector days and go home, instead of sitting around at LHR for excessive time periods?
I reckon that you probably do more duty hours per year than an EJ crew, sitting around the airport doing fewer flying hours, whereas with flexibility that does not exist in the contract at present, you would be flying more and sitting at home more. I know what I would want.
Yes, you need the union to protect you against idiots in BA management, of which there are many, but you would be incentivised to fly more and get more quality time at home if the flexibility existed to run the schedule more tightly with the same crew on the same aircraft into and out of LHR in the middle of the day.
We're happy to debate in a rational manner; we're not all out to get you on this forum - but please at least listen to other viewpoints...
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And believe me when I say that the vast majority of crew won't either.
I see BASSA are now trying to derail the LCY- JFK by demanding crew have 15 hours rest in SNN after the arduous single sector from LCY. Can't see the army of crew who volunteered caring too much about that diktat.
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Wasn't there a costing of the flight crew system when it moved from allowances to duty pay somewhere, showing how it affects crew at different seniorities and the effect on BA? A useful analogy here methinks.
With the 20 accountants they could then lay off who have to calculate all these allowances, you would be another £1m towards cost saving budgets.
And who would want to sit in SNN for 15 hours on the way out, when they could be at home a day earlier?
This above is a direct example of the warped way in which the byzantine nature of the present allowances actually has a highly detrimental impact on crew. When conceived, on cargo routes with a week or more between flights, abandoned downroute with little to do, it certainly made sense. Nowadays, what matters for quality of life is getting home to family and friends.
However, crew negotiations rationally try to protect this byzantive structure, as the more you hang around downroute, between flights etc, the more you collect. Replacing it all with fixed duty payments incentivises crew to work efficiently and get home - all the better in this day and age.
I just find it a great pity that BA and BASSA didn't sit down at the start and try to devise a structure that improved quality of life while maintaining income, which in itself would have yielded savings in excess of those proposed by BA or BASSA to date.
If I were WW, I would have started out by asking crew directly for suggestions to (a) raise efficiency of the operation, (b) enhance the quality of life of crew, and (c) protect BA long-term, before coming across with a list of demands, which while aiming towards the above create the distinct impression that he wants a huge pound of flesh from what are in essence low-paid employees working in the high-cost London market.
With the 20 accountants they could then lay off who have to calculate all these allowances, you would be another £1m towards cost saving budgets.
I see BASSA are now trying to derail the LCY- JFK by demanding crew have 15 hours rest in SNN after the arduous single sector from LCY. Can't see the army of crew who volunteered caring too much about that diktat.
This above is a direct example of the warped way in which the byzantine nature of the present allowances actually has a highly detrimental impact on crew. When conceived, on cargo routes with a week or more between flights, abandoned downroute with little to do, it certainly made sense. Nowadays, what matters for quality of life is getting home to family and friends.
However, crew negotiations rationally try to protect this byzantive structure, as the more you hang around downroute, between flights etc, the more you collect. Replacing it all with fixed duty payments incentivises crew to work efficiently and get home - all the better in this day and age.
I just find it a great pity that BA and BASSA didn't sit down at the start and try to devise a structure that improved quality of life while maintaining income, which in itself would have yielded savings in excess of those proposed by BA or BASSA to date.
If I were WW, I would have started out by asking crew directly for suggestions to (a) raise efficiency of the operation, (b) enhance the quality of life of crew, and (c) protect BA long-term, before coming across with a list of demands, which while aiming towards the above create the distinct impression that he wants a huge pound of flesh from what are in essence low-paid employees working in the high-cost London market.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 4th Aug 2009 at 15:13.
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Don't be so harsh on the crew. They are not fools even if their union is acting as such, albeit rationally.
I suspect a majority of them would want it if they had it explained to them clearly both by the company and their union (whose representation they pay for).
I see no forum other than this one that makes any attempt to do so, and painting crew as fools simply results in unnecessary slagging matches.
I suspect a majority of them would want it if they had it explained to them clearly both by the company and their union (whose representation they pay for).
I see no forum other than this one that makes any attempt to do so, and painting crew as fools simply results in unnecessary slagging matches.
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Don't forget to add in that HMRC are currently gunning for a tax increase for the CC TAFB allowance structure which, I believe, is taxed at 18%.
As there was a total mess when it came to the CC TAFB exercise last year the current system has been seen as far too complex and 'rank/seniority' biased.
The fixed allowance system would enable far better accounting for both the BASSA members and BA giving BA a quantifiable CC entity and the crew member a fixed earning for the month. Also removing the 'seniority' bidding advantage thus resulting in a fairer spread of the work as destination would be 'bid' for on interest/preference not on fiscal reward.
But that would have been adequately explained, wouldn't it?
As there was a total mess when it came to the CC TAFB exercise last year the current system has been seen as far too complex and 'rank/seniority' biased.
The fixed allowance system would enable far better accounting for both the BASSA members and BA giving BA a quantifiable CC entity and the crew member a fixed earning for the month. Also removing the 'seniority' bidding advantage thus resulting in a fairer spread of the work as destination would be 'bid' for on interest/preference not on fiscal reward.
But that would have been adequately explained, wouldn't it?
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It's not really very helpful goading flyingchick or PiB, so please desist from doing so.
As I said above, crew have no access to any other meaningful independent information. If my discussion with flyingchick was useful, then great.
I don't see how it helps to goad anyone into coming back on here with angered, militant views.
This is an interesting alley that has not yet been explored, or even raised by the BA / BASSA documents we have seen.
It is also a prime example of where BA and the unions should be working together to fend off Gordon's sticky hands.
See http://www.balpa.org/getattachment/d...008-12-31.aspx for some examples of HMRC sticking their hands on people's cash.
As I said above, crew have no access to any other meaningful independent information. If my discussion with flyingchick was useful, then great.
I don't see how it helps to goad anyone into coming back on here with angered, militant views.
Don't forget to add in that HMRC are currently gunning for a tax increase for the CC TAFB allowance structure which, I believe, is taxed at 18%.
It is also a prime example of where BA and the unions should be working together to fend off Gordon's sticky hands.
See http://www.balpa.org/getattachment/d...008-12-31.aspx for some examples of HMRC sticking their hands on people's cash.
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Good to see that BASSA cares about LGW for a first. Are they actually insisting on crew rest in SNN after a 90 minute sector? Previously LGW has always been a good target for BASSA to keep the terms and conditions at LHR. Surprised to see that they are showing a sense of duty for the crew at the Gatters.
Second thought. Maybe it hasn't changed after all.. Who am I kidding?
Second thought. Maybe it hasn't changed after all.. Who am I kidding?
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Cabin Crew..??? you think you deserve your jobs ?????
I have just returned from the States ...originally a return flight using United Airlines in business class.
My outbound sector was as usual , perfect.
Classy crew...impeccable manners, quietly spoken....
The flight was effortlessly comfortable.
My return sector had to be changed to BA business class at the last minute.
I accepted this warily as I have had so many bad experiences in the past..I thought "think positive" as they must have improved due to the current economic climate. Surely the arrogance will no longer be apparant.
As soon as I boarded I knew this not to be the case..!!!
Oh lets do everyone a favor by allowing them on board shall we ?
Without going into too much detail
Arrogant , lazy , ungroomed..would be a minor understatement..!!!
At least hide the cornish pasty that you are scoffing when the pax are queuing for the restroom.Please..!!!!!!
I know you are tired during the night but when a coffee is required...please try not to roll your eyes...we can see you you know !!!!
We can also hear you loud and clear.!!!
Oh BA..what happened to being the best...You once were.
Get real, sort out your cabin crew...fast before they universally bring down what was once the best in the sky!!!!
By the way...one superb crew member per flight doesnt make up for ten indifferent ones...maintain some consistency please.!!!
While Im on a roll.....every single crew member tramping heavily thru the cabin and shouting to their colleagues in the galley about food...doesnt really do any favors to the so called sleeper service LOL
My outbound sector was as usual , perfect.
Classy crew...impeccable manners, quietly spoken....
The flight was effortlessly comfortable.
My return sector had to be changed to BA business class at the last minute.
I accepted this warily as I have had so many bad experiences in the past..I thought "think positive" as they must have improved due to the current economic climate. Surely the arrogance will no longer be apparant.
As soon as I boarded I knew this not to be the case..!!!
Oh lets do everyone a favor by allowing them on board shall we ?
Without going into too much detail
Arrogant , lazy , ungroomed..would be a minor understatement..!!!
At least hide the cornish pasty that you are scoffing when the pax are queuing for the restroom.Please..!!!!!!
I know you are tired during the night but when a coffee is required...please try not to roll your eyes...we can see you you know !!!!
We can also hear you loud and clear.!!!
Oh BA..what happened to being the best...You once were.
Get real, sort out your cabin crew...fast before they universally bring down what was once the best in the sky!!!!
By the way...one superb crew member per flight doesnt make up for ten indifferent ones...maintain some consistency please.!!!
While Im on a roll.....every single crew member tramping heavily thru the cabin and shouting to their colleagues in the galley about food...doesnt really do any favors to the so called sleeper service LOL
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COMMENT: Mike Platt (Aug 3)
Yesterday at 15:49 in Air Travel, Accommodation, Travel Management, Technology, Ground Transport, MICE | COMMENT
We have had our good times and bad times BA. Mike Platt looks at the current standing of British Airways
Over all too many years, I have had the kind of topsy turvy relationship one would expect between a huge national airline and a TMC man whose top priorities were his clients and his company. Like every powerful market leader, it has been there to shoot down and whinge about and frankly it has on occasions deserved it..... BUT, like one's favourite football team, you can moan but you cannot do without them. I should know as I am a fanatic Fulham fan!
Just look at BA now. Like most of us, it is facing the biggest challenges of its economic life and the vultures are circling. Unfortunately it took perhaps too long to get a man like Willie Walsh in charge and then, when he tried to tell us, the unions and financial institutions the facts of life, few people took a blind bit of notice. Like all great British institutions, we as a nation seem to take some fiendish delight in knocking them down even as the rest of the world looks on in bemusement!
In my very long and detailed understanding and background in airline knowledge, British Airways is either the best of the bunch or close to it in the international pecking chain of global airlines. Its problem is that it is practically hamstrung by competition law, flag carrier status, poor legacy systems and, most of all, arcane staff agreements jealously guarded by unions from a bygone Arthur Scargill like age.
This airline is fighting for its very life, and what are the cabin crew unions doing? They are still trying to hold on to horrendously expensive benefits that frankly should have disappeared in the same era as the miners' strike. Believe me, some of these allowances are ridiculous and totally out of sync with the industry in which they compete. From what I gather, much of the argument is about whether the unions give up these silly benefits for the period of difficulty or forever and BA cannot let this moment pass without getting rid of them for good. The crazy thing is that I believe many of the short haul BA crews are willing to take the changes but it is the militants on long haul that want to maintain the status quo.
In some way I am almost gritting my teeth in saying this but I am going to do it as I think some of you just may agree.
"British Airways is a damn good airline and I prefer to fly with them. It has its faults but it does make me proud that it provides the best schedules, best service and best....well Britishness!"
If you do not agree with me, well tell me. You have the facility to reply. I would be interested to know!
Yesterday at 15:49 in Air Travel, Accommodation, Travel Management, Technology, Ground Transport, MICE | COMMENT
We have had our good times and bad times BA. Mike Platt looks at the current standing of British Airways
Over all too many years, I have had the kind of topsy turvy relationship one would expect between a huge national airline and a TMC man whose top priorities were his clients and his company. Like every powerful market leader, it has been there to shoot down and whinge about and frankly it has on occasions deserved it..... BUT, like one's favourite football team, you can moan but you cannot do without them. I should know as I am a fanatic Fulham fan!
Just look at BA now. Like most of us, it is facing the biggest challenges of its economic life and the vultures are circling. Unfortunately it took perhaps too long to get a man like Willie Walsh in charge and then, when he tried to tell us, the unions and financial institutions the facts of life, few people took a blind bit of notice. Like all great British institutions, we as a nation seem to take some fiendish delight in knocking them down even as the rest of the world looks on in bemusement!
In my very long and detailed understanding and background in airline knowledge, British Airways is either the best of the bunch or close to it in the international pecking chain of global airlines. Its problem is that it is practically hamstrung by competition law, flag carrier status, poor legacy systems and, most of all, arcane staff agreements jealously guarded by unions from a bygone Arthur Scargill like age.
This airline is fighting for its very life, and what are the cabin crew unions doing? They are still trying to hold on to horrendously expensive benefits that frankly should have disappeared in the same era as the miners' strike. Believe me, some of these allowances are ridiculous and totally out of sync with the industry in which they compete. From what I gather, much of the argument is about whether the unions give up these silly benefits for the period of difficulty or forever and BA cannot let this moment pass without getting rid of them for good. The crazy thing is that I believe many of the short haul BA crews are willing to take the changes but it is the militants on long haul that want to maintain the status quo.
In some way I am almost gritting my teeth in saying this but I am going to do it as I think some of you just may agree.
"British Airways is a damn good airline and I prefer to fly with them. It has its faults but it does make me proud that it provides the best schedules, best service and best....well Britishness!"
If you do not agree with me, well tell me. You have the facility to reply. I would be interested to know!
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CFC wrote:
At the end of the day, and many will get on the merry-go-round and slate me, BA have to negotiate with Bassa/Amicus and whatever your thoughts/hopes are that is the reality of life in BA.
Take a look at what's happened over the last few days:
Catering reduced effective 1 Aug - in preparation for reduced crew onboard
GPMs now reduced onboard - in preparation for CSDs' increased workload
Planned allowances for Aug only showed meal allowances - to show system already adapted for Fixed Monthly Duty Payment.
WW gave UNITE until 30 June to negotiate. The deadline is dead. Our Union have missed the boat on negotiation now. We are but at the mercy of WW.
The end of the cooling off period is anytime soon. The only question then will be "Will you sign?" I will. Because I have to keep my job.
Our union have failed us miserably. That will be the reality of life in BA.
At the end of the day, and many will get on the merry-go-round and slate me, BA have to negotiate with Bassa/Amicus and whatever your thoughts/hopes are that is the reality of life in BA.
Take a look at what's happened over the last few days:
Catering reduced effective 1 Aug - in preparation for reduced crew onboard
GPMs now reduced onboard - in preparation for CSDs' increased workload
Planned allowances for Aug only showed meal allowances - to show system already adapted for Fixed Monthly Duty Payment.
WW gave UNITE until 30 June to negotiate. The deadline is dead. Our Union have missed the boat on negotiation now. We are but at the mercy of WW.
The end of the cooling off period is anytime soon. The only question then will be "Will you sign?" I will. Because I have to keep my job.
Our union have failed us miserably. That will be the reality of life in BA.
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Hiflyer14 that is absolute rubbish. WW cannot legally force new contracts or new terms on anyone as long as you don't violate your contract. (Strikes, Lockouts, Work to Rule, Sick-Ins - in short, any form of industrial action that is not carried out to the letter of the law could be construed as breaking of contracts.)
The registering of a "Failure to Agree" is serious, but doesn't mean that our Trades Unions have failed you - far from it! We haven't sold you into the life of the Lo-Cos!
Stand firm - there's still parleying to be done. If the management have any sense, they will get back with ACAS next week and try to budge slightly.
Interestingly enough, the management are absolutely furious at the deal done with BALPA for it has certainly queered the pitch!
The registering of a "Failure to Agree" is serious, but doesn't mean that our Trades Unions have failed you - far from it! We haven't sold you into the life of the Lo-Cos!
Stand firm - there's still parleying to be done. If the management have any sense, they will get back with ACAS next week and try to budge slightly.
Interestingly enough, the management are absolutely furious at the deal done with BALPA for it has certainly queered the pitch!
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WW cannot legally force new contracts or new terms on anyone as long as you don't violate your contract.
Click HERE for starters.
The crux of the matter is that if BA have prepared their legal case well enough (what do you reckon?), the judge will allow SOSR to stand, new contracts will be imposed and those who don't sign them by the deadline will be deemed to have resigned.
This is not new information.
