British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Glamgirl if only that were true. Most of those routes weren't actually profitable at LGW either, but it was felt they could be at LHR. You may choose not to believe me on this, but that was the reality. In the shorthaul market the number of BA operated flights at LGW that were profitable could be counted on the fingers of one hand - with fingers to spare.
Last edited by Papillon; 16th Dec 2009 at 19:46. Reason: Edited for accuracy!
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I hope BA cabin crew are reading the news about FlyGlobespan tonight. That may be you soon.
If it wasn't for everybody else who would suffer e.g. ground staff, engineers, pilots, admin etc. I really hope WW would shut the airline down. And all because of pure greed, idiotic unions and a complete and utter lack of thought for others. Ba5ta#ds. How many customers will return to BA after wrecking their Christmas & New Year?
If it wasn't for everybody else who would suffer e.g. ground staff, engineers, pilots, admin etc. I really hope WW would shut the airline down. And all because of pure greed, idiotic unions and a complete and utter lack of thought for others. Ba5ta#ds. How many customers will return to BA after wrecking their Christmas & New Year?
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Papillon,
Not arguing with you, just trying to explain one of the reasons as to why LGW didn't make profit in the past.
On TIP we did make a profit. I reckon we did on some of the other routes as well. I might not have got the exact routes right, which I apologise for. RIX has been bounced up and down the M25 more often than I care to remember. You see, it at least used to be, that if a route didn't do so well at LHR, it was sent to LGW, we'd get it up and running again, and when the customer base was suitably built, the route would go back to LHR.
This is my opinion, and what I have been informed of in the past (from various sources).
Gg
Not arguing with you, just trying to explain one of the reasons as to why LGW didn't make profit in the past.
On TIP we did make a profit. I reckon we did on some of the other routes as well. I might not have got the exact routes right, which I apologise for. RIX has been bounced up and down the M25 more often than I care to remember. You see, it at least used to be, that if a route didn't do so well at LHR, it was sent to LGW, we'd get it up and running again, and when the customer base was suitably built, the route would go back to LHR.
This is my opinion, and what I have been informed of in the past (from various sources).
Gg
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Glamgirl, not arguing with you either - and TIP was the reason for my edit actually!
You are right to an extent that this did happen, not least because the profit at LHR was likely to be greater. This all stems from the reality that LGW lost a horrendous amount of money. Some of it was skewed - such as including overheads that weren't remotely fair to LGW (Concorde costs were always a good example) making the figures appear worse than they probably were, but the LGW commercial proposition was always truly grim, and some of the route losses frankly terrifying.
You are right to an extent that this did happen, not least because the profit at LHR was likely to be greater. This all stems from the reality that LGW lost a horrendous amount of money. Some of it was skewed - such as including overheads that weren't remotely fair to LGW (Concorde costs were always a good example) making the figures appear worse than they probably were, but the LGW commercial proposition was always truly grim, and some of the route losses frankly terrifying.
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Can we not all step back from thinking whose got the biggest.
How are we going to solve this and solve it we will?
This has gone beyond a simple dispute between a company and a section of its staff.
It is now about politics, no one cares whether you are a loyal BA employee or a cc member (I only make the distinction because the cc are currently perceived as the niggers in the woodpile -sorry that in this day and age that is non- PC).
We can have the 12 days of strike and yes it is Christmas but BA crew work 365 days per year and does Christmas really matter.
Who are the winners and losers?
BA cabin crew will lose 12 days of pay and, as someone said, it will take several years to make that up.
BA may go bust and there will be another x'000 people unemployed.
The customers will still have to travel and will find alternative carriers maybe taking their custom out of the UK.
The politicians will crow but wont stop claiming from you and I for their towers and duck houses.
The union leaders will forget about it as they gather the troops to lead others to redundancy.
So who will win?
Nobody and isn't that what is wrong with the UK today, we have lost the will to win.
How are we going to solve this and solve it we will?
This has gone beyond a simple dispute between a company and a section of its staff.
It is now about politics, no one cares whether you are a loyal BA employee or a cc member (I only make the distinction because the cc are currently perceived as the niggers in the woodpile -sorry that in this day and age that is non- PC).
We can have the 12 days of strike and yes it is Christmas but BA crew work 365 days per year and does Christmas really matter.
Who are the winners and losers?
BA cabin crew will lose 12 days of pay and, as someone said, it will take several years to make that up.
BA may go bust and there will be another x'000 people unemployed.
The customers will still have to travel and will find alternative carriers maybe taking their custom out of the UK.
The politicians will crow but wont stop claiming from you and I for their towers and duck houses.
The union leaders will forget about it as they gather the troops to lead others to redundancy.
So who will win?
Nobody and isn't that what is wrong with the UK today, we have lost the will to win.
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....and off course the fact that the TOTAL revenue of a ticket from a passenger connecting through LGW to a LHR flight (or vice versa) would end up in the LHR pot. 
(...and the brilliant strategic move of allowing ezy to buy GB and thereby giving them 50% slots in LGW.....and come to think of it, now what were they called again...'GO' or something, and the brilliance of BA-Connect (and subsequent inter airline subsidies...say no more....but I digress....)
(...and the brilliant strategic move of allowing ezy to buy GB and thereby giving them 50% slots in LGW.....and come to think of it, now what were they called again...'GO' or something, and the brilliance of BA-Connect (and subsequent inter airline subsidies...say no more....but I digress....)
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Lauderdale
If it was a short-haul connection it didn't really matter - the advent of SRP meant that you only got about £6 a lot of the time anyway. The franchises used to go nuts at that! 
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Originally posted by Highflyer
Highflyer,
Today on my way home from work, I suffered that wrath. My laptop wasn't charging and I had to stop off at PC World. I was on my cell phone to a friend who incidentally is also volunteering to work over the Christmas period like us, when a lady just turned around and shouted at me " You must be proud of yourself, my daughter is due to come back from Colorado and thanks to you we have no idea if and when she'll come home!"
I explained to her that I wasn't one of the striking crew and the lady burst into tears and said thank you. I understood how this lady felt and how the public now perceive BA Cabin Crew.
Fume Event,Watersidewonker, Flying Chick et all,
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I don't deserve this!
Hope you are pleased with yourselves for dragging us down with you!
Now we must go to work and face the wrath (understandably) of the public. We also stand to lose our jobs, - and the company we love and have all worked for for many many years is slowly disintegrating in front of us. For the last 9 months we have been powerless to stop it.
Today on my way home from work, I suffered that wrath. My laptop wasn't charging and I had to stop off at PC World. I was on my cell phone to a friend who incidentally is also volunteering to work over the Christmas period like us, when a lady just turned around and shouted at me " You must be proud of yourself, my daughter is due to come back from Colorado and thanks to you we have no idea if and when she'll come home!"
I explained to her that I wasn't one of the striking crew and the lady burst into tears and said thank you. I understood how this lady felt and how the public now perceive BA Cabin Crew.
Fume Event,Watersidewonker, Flying Chick et all,
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
I don't deserve this!
Hope you are pleased with yourselves for dragging us down with you!
CH3CH2OH
How many customers will return to BA after wrecking their Christmas & New Year?
People should get real in the current climate, along with many others we had zero pay rise this year in the interests of ensuring the continued viability of the company!
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A Lurker
Not sure what your letter is supposed to illustrate ? Nowhere (as far as I can see) does it talk about crew complements. Nobody has suggested crew at LHR take a pay cut, oh except the BASSA loonies, and even for new fleet BA is still suggesting market rate +10%. So BASSA shud be negotiating LHR market rate +10%.
LGW crew had the nous (at the time) to see that they needed to adapt and change to survive in "their" market. Your TU are basing a lot of their argument (well depends on what day/what way the wind is blowing quite what their argument is) on H&S and crew numbers, which they deem not workable with new complements (as opposed to what appears to be the crux of the correspondence you posted - remuneration).
Then again BASSA change their tune so much.....imposition, 40% pay cut, 50% pay cut, H&S, imposition again, macho management, new fleet, LGW MOA, pilots deal, Willie Walsh, Jedward.....have actually lost track quite what they are arguing about/have balloted on ???!!!
LGW crew had the nous (at the time) to see that they needed to adapt and change to survive in "their" market. Your TU are basing a lot of their argument (well depends on what day/what way the wind is blowing quite what their argument is) on H&S and crew numbers, which they deem not workable with new complements (as opposed to what appears to be the crux of the correspondence you posted - remuneration).
Then again BASSA change their tune so much.....imposition, 40% pay cut, 50% pay cut, H&S, imposition again, macho management, new fleet, LGW MOA, pilots deal, Willie Walsh, Jedward.....have actually lost track quite what they are arguing about/have balloted on ???!!!
Last edited by TOM100; 16th Dec 2009 at 20:48.
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interesting headline tomorrow on the front page of the Independent newspaper - "BA Staff: we got it wrong over strike" - i hope lots turn up for work on the first day of strikes, they obviously know what they have is a good deal and what they are doing now is WRONG ...
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LGW crew had the nous (at the time) to see that they needed to adapt and change to survive in "their" market.
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Ottergirl
Exactly, adapt to survive, either change your Ts and Cs or have no job as we will have no choice but to withdraw because the market will not sustain your current Ts and Cs and allow us to deliver a sustainable level of profitability ! LGW crew chose to adapt and retain their jobs albeit on reduced terms. I fully agree with you, a pretty unpalatable set of circumstances and choices, but the reality of the situation. LGW is still here (albeit smaller) and testament to their real hardwork and dedication, the LH operation is profitable ! Choice - reduce terms and have a future or dig in with no change and have no future !
I know we are not exactly comparing like with like as there was the huge sweetner of LH golden runways as an option, but the point I am trying to make is that LGW adapted and is still here and is growing in some areas (LH). They are delivering a profit on LH, with reduced crewing levels, comparable service levels......they adapted, changed and proved it can be done with the integrity of the brand (in particular on LH still)intact - so why can't LHR do the same ? with their own market rates +10% bt with comparable complements ?
I know we are not exactly comparing like with like as there was the huge sweetner of LH golden runways as an option, but the point I am trying to make is that LGW adapted and is still here and is growing in some areas (LH). They are delivering a profit on LH, with reduced crewing levels, comparable service levels......they adapted, changed and proved it can be done with the integrity of the brand (in particular on LH still)intact - so why can't LHR do the same ? with their own market rates +10% bt with comparable complements ?
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Please please I HOPE, PRAY for the injuction tomorrow to be successful and the talks to pay off. Am I living in Lalaland? Maybe, but I can only hope that BASSA/Unite actually negotiate a reasonable compromise and engage and a strike is called off!!
I am so worried, I want to work next week but am so very scared and anxious thanks to BASSA. How do you cross a picket line without bullying and intimidation. What if your name gets bandied around CRC and the militants bully you, call you a ''scab'' etc. Despite my fears I really don't want to go on strike - can't afford it for a start!! Not to mention I TOTALLY DISAGREE with the cause and reason for a strike, even if it was just for 3 days like was speculated that's why I voted No. I just hope there are many more people going to work - not just No voters, for our customers sake and for OUR sake!!!
Preferably call off the strike though!!
I am so worried, I want to work next week but am so very scared and anxious thanks to BASSA. How do you cross a picket line without bullying and intimidation. What if your name gets bandied around CRC and the militants bully you, call you a ''scab'' etc. Despite my fears I really don't want to go on strike - can't afford it for a start!! Not to mention I TOTALLY DISAGREE with the cause and reason for a strike, even if it was just for 3 days like was speculated that's why I voted No. I just hope there are many more people going to work - not just No voters, for our customers sake and for OUR sake!!!
Preferably call off the strike though!!
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As well as the Independent headline for tomorrow, have a look at the letter in today's Independent by ex Gen Manager of BA cabin crew Richard Graham. He tells it as it is: Quote: "Rather than accept somewhat lower rewards and the need to work harder, they may find that WW decides to dispense with them altogether and franchise cabin service to an outside provider, as do some really efficient airlines."
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By jove I think I've got it.
There are lots of people asking "What's it all about"?. That's what I and some of my more sensible colleagues have been asking for the last 9 months. Here's a Brief synopsis:
But suddenly the majority of crew, the BASSA faithful, thought it was brilliant.
Lots of love and support for the country's biggest Union BASSA. Some of us are confused - we don't want to cut our pay, we don't mind working harder - surely the BA option is better? A few of us tried to speak out in a reasonable and composed way, to reps, on forums, etc. but no - blasted to hell as a traitor, hate mail, blah, blah, blah.
So, what is it all about?
Thanks to someone on this thread who posted earlier about their Uni studies about Industrial Relations and trade unions, I think the penny has finally dropped. I can't find the post (but huge thanks) but it said something about Trade Unions will never be in favour of productivity savings because it is effectively suicide - it cuts their subscriptions.
Bingo.
So the facts are:
BASSA receive £15 per month in Union fees per crew member. Approximately 10000 members = £150,000 PER MONTH IN SUBSCRIPTIONS.
BA want to reduce cabin crew by 4000 HCE so that is 4000 x £15 per month = £60,000 PER MONTH IN LOST SUBSCRIPTIONS! That is near on half their monthly subscription money.
So rather than lose £60,000 PER MONTH from Lala lady's coffers, they decided to offer up OUR SALARY - 2.61% each so that WE TAKE THE HIT AND NOT THEM.
Bingo. The Union retains it's power, it retains it's MASSIVE monthly subscription fees, BA gets some savings and the only loser is THE CABIN CREW THAT THE UNION IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT.
Now, I know there are plenty on this thread that have far more maths and business kudos than me, (not difficult) so would someone please disprove this theory, because I am getting madder and madder by the minute thinking about it.
Have many millions of customers had their christmases ruined, many thousands of BA employees had their jobs put at risk, and many, many other associate companies put at risk TO SAVE THIS UNION £60,000 PER MONTH???
And have 10,000+ BA Cabin Crew been hoodwinked by this Union, that has never consulted the entire membership on anything?
I am a BA cabin crew, the above represents my own viewpoint and not that of BA. And I will cross the picket line.
Recession on - BA need to cut costs (like most companies). BA ask us to save money through reducing crew on a/c and New Fleet (new joiners with lower pay).
Nearly all cabin crew say "I'm happy to work harder, but I don't want to lose pay" We all agree. No problem there, then.
The Union (BASSA) then offers up their counter proposal, without prior consultation of the members. It is a 2.6% paycut
, and a 2 year pay freeze and some other fleet stuff that NOBODY REALLY WANTED and nobody had been asked about. I thought WTF? this is mad - and laughed.
Nearly all cabin crew say "I'm happy to work harder, but I don't want to lose pay" We all agree. No problem there, then.
The Union (BASSA) then offers up their counter proposal, without prior consultation of the members. It is a 2.6% paycut
, and a 2 year pay freeze and some other fleet stuff that NOBODY REALLY WANTED and nobody had been asked about. I thought WTF? this is mad - and laughed.
Lots of love and support for the country's biggest Union BASSA. Some of us are confused - we don't want to cut our pay, we don't mind working harder - surely the BA option is better? A few of us tried to speak out in a reasonable and composed way, to reps, on forums, etc. but no - blasted to hell as a traitor, hate mail, blah, blah, blah. So, what is it all about?
Thanks to someone on this thread who posted earlier about their Uni studies about Industrial Relations and trade unions, I think the penny has finally dropped. I can't find the post (but huge thanks) but it said something about Trade Unions will never be in favour of productivity savings because it is effectively suicide - it cuts their subscriptions.
Bingo.So the facts are:
BASSA receive £15 per month in Union fees per crew member. Approximately 10000 members = £150,000 PER MONTH IN SUBSCRIPTIONS.
BA want to reduce cabin crew by 4000 HCE so that is 4000 x £15 per month = £60,000 PER MONTH IN LOST SUBSCRIPTIONS! That is near on half their monthly subscription money.
So rather than lose £60,000 PER MONTH from Lala lady's coffers, they decided to offer up OUR SALARY - 2.61% each so that WE TAKE THE HIT AND NOT THEM.
Bingo. The Union retains it's power, it retains it's MASSIVE monthly subscription fees, BA gets some savings and the only loser is THE CABIN CREW THAT THE UNION IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT.
Now, I know there are plenty on this thread that have far more maths and business kudos than me, (not difficult) so would someone please disprove this theory, because I am getting madder and madder by the minute thinking about it.
Have many millions of customers had their christmases ruined, many thousands of BA employees had their jobs put at risk, and many, many other associate companies put at risk TO SAVE THIS UNION £60,000 PER MONTH???
And have 10,000+ BA Cabin Crew been hoodwinked by this Union, that has never consulted the entire membership on anything?
I am a BA cabin crew, the above represents my own viewpoint and not that of BA. And I will cross the picket line.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 16th Dec 2009 at 21:39.