British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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BA will let BASSA self-destruct
Assuming the ballot result is in favour of strike action BASSA have stated that dates for IA will be announced at the meeting tomorrow.
If BA's legal team have found these "problems" with the ballot process then BASSA are risking hollding an illeagal strike. BASSA would then be liable for damages (ie operational losses, estimated at £50M or 2 day strike) if BA pursued them in court. UNITE will be aware of this and will either dis-own BASSA or as per 2007 tell BASSA to wind their necks in.
If I was WW, I'd let them strike, sack the first tranch of strikers and watch the remaioning crew crawl back to work, tails between legs. I'd have them sign New Fleet contracts as well before allowing them back.
There is no way BASSA can win this battle, they have behaved disgracefully since early this year. If I were a member of BASSA I would be furious, as a union they are a "one-trick pony" and that has worked well in the past, but this year WW means business. No matter how many toys BASSA throw out of the pram, WW will not flinch - he has the support of the board, shareholders and the City.
If BA's legal team have found these "problems" with the ballot process then BASSA are risking hollding an illeagal strike. BASSA would then be liable for damages (ie operational losses, estimated at £50M or 2 day strike) if BA pursued them in court. UNITE will be aware of this and will either dis-own BASSA or as per 2007 tell BASSA to wind their necks in.
If I was WW, I'd let them strike, sack the first tranch of strikers and watch the remaioning crew crawl back to work, tails between legs. I'd have them sign New Fleet contracts as well before allowing them back.
There is no way BASSA can win this battle, they have behaved disgracefully since early this year. If I were a member of BASSA I would be furious, as a union they are a "one-trick pony" and that has worked well in the past, but this year WW means business. No matter how many toys BASSA throw out of the pram, WW will not flinch - he has the support of the board, shareholders and the City.
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Watersidewonker,
Can you please tell where in any correspondence from BA does it state that you/I will be taking a 30 to 40% pay cut please, as I haven't received any to date?
I sincerely hope that BASSA won't take us non strikers down with them. Some of us have resigned and are no longer a member of BASSA or AMICUS. I hope for everyone's sake, employees and passengers alike, that there is a flaw in the ballot and strike action is cancelled.
This I fear will be the Strike that cabin crew will live to regret.
Can you please tell where in any correspondence from BA does it state that you/I will be taking a 30 to 40% pay cut please, as I haven't received any to date?
I sincerely hope that BASSA won't take us non strikers down with them. Some of us have resigned and are no longer a member of BASSA or AMICUS. I hope for everyone's sake, employees and passengers alike, that there is a flaw in the ballot and strike action is cancelled.
This I fear will be the Strike that cabin crew will live to regret.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 13th Dec 2009 at 16:58.
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What I don't understand is why BASSA say there will be no promotion prospects - ok it might be on different T&Cs but do they honestly believe that there will never be any need to promote new SCCMs??? Noone knows the T&Cs of New Fleet yet anyway, and haven't they repeatedly said noone will be forced to go over, unless they want to transfer or be promoted?? So why is it all of a sudden we will all get a pay cut of 40%.
Of course, with a flying career ahead of me I do want promotion, but surely there will still be promotions in the future, with the strict seniority culture on WorldWide anyway people haven't been promoted after 12 years anyway!!!
Anyway BASSA says this dispute was over the impositions of crew complements, nothing more nothing less. BA have said to Unite they are willing to talk about New Fleet/contracts.
Of course, with a flying career ahead of me I do want promotion, but surely there will still be promotions in the future, with the strict seniority culture on WorldWide anyway people haven't been promoted after 12 years anyway!!!
Anyway BASSA says this dispute was over the impositions of crew complements, nothing more nothing less. BA have said to Unite they are willing to talk about New Fleet/contracts.
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Tiramisu & SlideBustle
I wouldn't waste your breath with the likes of WWW, FE etc. Bassa's attitude is reflected in that well worn expression;
'Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up!'
'Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up!'
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I can actually understand the promotion issue. Same happened in NL when they changed most pension funds from end wage to middle wage calculation. Suddenly new staff were promoted ahead of older staff because in the end that would be cheaper (or the staff under old T&C would be too expensive).
However, that is exactly why newfleet is necessary. BA can't afford to continue the current situation. It will only increase the already huge deficit.
However, that is exactly why newfleet is necessary. BA can't afford to continue the current situation. It will only increase the already huge deficit.
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Slidebustle, I have flown with several main crew who have said they will go to New Fleet for promotion given the opportunity, and they are BASSA members.
BA has offered an open invitation to UNITE , yet they haven't budged. None of the BASSA/AMICUS supporters like Fume, CFC and A Lurker seem to be able to come up with an answer as to why they won't either. I'm getting bored of asking this question, any thoughts A Lurker or Fume?
BA has offered an open invitation to UNITE , yet they haven't budged. None of the BASSA/AMICUS supporters like Fume, CFC and A Lurker seem to be able to come up with an answer as to why they won't either. I'm getting bored of asking this question, any thoughts A Lurker or Fume?
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Tiramisu
Thanks love. I'm feeling more confident than I was a couple of weeks ago.
I'm actually more concerned for the loyal staff members throughout BA who are having to endure this prolonged persecution by an out of touch union membership who have no concern other than to feather their own greedy nests by continuing with their antiquated system of restrictive practices. That's how our ship yards used to operate until the '80s, & look what happened to them.
Fly safely.
I'm actually more concerned for the loyal staff members throughout BA who are having to endure this prolonged persecution by an out of touch union membership who have no concern other than to feather their own greedy nests by continuing with their antiquated system of restrictive practices. That's how our ship yards used to operate until the '80s, & look what happened to them.
Fly safely.
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Willie must ensure the safety and well being of his loyal staff and crew.
He must surely be aware that he cannot negotiate with the megalomaniacs running Bassa. He will have to get rid of the militants.
He is certainly not going to back down.
I know for a fact that 400+ pursers applied for the latest round of promotion to csd.
He must surely be aware that he cannot negotiate with the megalomaniacs running Bassa. He will have to get rid of the militants.
He is certainly not going to back down.
I know for a fact that 400+ pursers applied for the latest round of promotion to csd.
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Tiramisu if the oppurtunity was offered for promotion on NF I would too. One thing I would be worried that I would be taking the work of crew remaining on current contracts however BA has offered various things like the travel payments and a matrix of routes to be transferred to protect current crew/fleets, BASSA just don't want to no they just want BA to go away. New Fleet is not ideal BUT the way I see it is IF it came in and oppurtunities were introduced, why not go for it as I have a career to go.... I could stay on current fleets but 40 years down the line do you think I would be better off when I could have gained development. Like I say though for people who want to stay on existing fleets I would expect them to not be disadvantaged either by NF but Bill and Co. have offered to negotiate to protect that. Anyway, you can't tell the militants they would rather not negotiate and listen to BA waste time saying NO NO NO then New Fleet will come along, maybe without the protection of the travel payment as BASSA said no 
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To Winstonsmith.
My guess is that BA wants to remove the 2nd Purser too and only have 1 CSD and 1 Purser on long-haul aircrafts - CSD overall in-charge and Purser being in-charge of the service in World Traveller and World Traveller Plus.
What do you base this on?
You could say anything about anything right now, please deal with the facts and keep it objective.
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Slidebustle, good for you and you would have 100% support from me and so would anyone else. You are young and you should make use of opportunities if you want a career, no one would think twice about anyone else. You have to look after number 1.
I can guarantee you that lots of other crew would as well.
I genuinely believe that work would be shared between fleets which was also mentioned at my In Touch day.
Would I be worried that you'll take work from me, not really, I may even move to New Fleet if it's right for me provided I was offered a good buy out of my present T's and C's. I accept change and am willing to move.
As you say if BA offered us the Travel Payment, that would give us some stability in our income provided BASSA don't throw it all away by striking.
None of us really know what routes we'll do and how it will all work, but New Fleet will happen and those who won't accept change will be left behind.
PS, Thanks Fincastle
I can guarantee you that lots of other crew would as well.
I genuinely believe that work would be shared between fleets which was also mentioned at my In Touch day.
Would I be worried that you'll take work from me, not really, I may even move to New Fleet if it's right for me provided I was offered a good buy out of my present T's and C's. I accept change and am willing to move.
As you say if BA offered us the Travel Payment, that would give us some stability in our income provided BASSA don't throw it all away by striking.
None of us really know what routes we'll do and how it will all work, but New Fleet will happen and those who won't accept change will be left behind.
PS, Thanks Fincastle
Last edited by Tiramisu; 13th Dec 2009 at 18:48.
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Thanks Tiramisu and you are spot on. I also believe that work would be shared evenly, some may call me naive but I don't think Bill and WW are huge liars like some militants like to make out. I do believe they DON'T want to force people over, that was said from everything like the leaked Columbus document and all proposals. Maybe I'm wrong, but you could say that about anything in life. What if? What if? What if? bassa militants seem to whip themselves into a frenzy about what could happen and conspiracy theories.
Anyway I'm digressing, hopefully this situation will blow over and we will be able to continue doing the job we enjoy... change or no change!
Anyway I'm digressing, hopefully this situation will blow over and we will be able to continue doing the job we enjoy... change or no change!
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SlideBustle
I think you have summed it up beautifully "what if, what if" and "this situation will blow over".
Life moves on and if we look back on this in a year (maybe 2-3 months) we will wonder what all the fuss was about.
I am retired but, when I left, BA was nothing like I expected when I joined.
I thought I would retire as a BOAC VC10 captain with a salary of £5000 per year.
The sad part is the shortsightedness of older people who should know better.
I think you have summed it up beautifully "what if, what if" and "this situation will blow over".
Life moves on and if we look back on this in a year (maybe 2-3 months) we will wonder what all the fuss was about.
I am retired but, when I left, BA was nothing like I expected when I joined.
I thought I would retire as a BOAC VC10 captain with a salary of £5000 per year.
The sad part is the shortsightedness of older people who should know better.
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Clarified
I can say pretty much what I like based on what they have done so far - rumour wise too from WS which doesn't mean anything at this time.
We have lost two Purser positions in two years - 3 Class 777 and 767 operate with 1 CSD and 1 Purser - I know there is no First Class on these configurations - we won't be getting them back!
Why did BA not remove the Purser in First and let Purser in Club stay - probably because they want main cabin crew to learn how to operate the galley before replacing the Purser in First - which would have been a huge chaos if done the other way around.
Give it some time and BA will definitely be coming after that Purser too - ask yourself why BA wouldn't want to replace that position with a main cabin crew member? Service wise? Zip!
Sorry - these are of course not facts!
What do you base this on?
You could say anything about anything right now, please deal with the facts and keep it objective.
You could say anything about anything right now, please deal with the facts and keep it objective.
We have lost two Purser positions in two years - 3 Class 777 and 767 operate with 1 CSD and 1 Purser - I know there is no First Class on these configurations - we won't be getting them back!
Why did BA not remove the Purser in First and let Purser in Club stay - probably because they want main cabin crew to learn how to operate the galley before replacing the Purser in First - which would have been a huge chaos if done the other way around.
Give it some time and BA will definitely be coming after that Purser too - ask yourself why BA wouldn't want to replace that position with a main cabin crew member? Service wise? Zip!
Sorry - these are of course not facts!
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JOINT UNITE STATEMENT
The following statement was sent to BA on Friday.
The joint branches of Unite the Union wish to communicate the following to the management of In-flight Customer Experience.
It has become increasingly evident that for the first time British Airways no longer respects the Agreements, policies and the respective industrial forums at which the trade unions represent our members and that the company is now either unwilling to engage, or has deliberately adopted a position to undermine trade unions within British Airways.
In short meetings between us have become a charade.
We have come to the unfortunate conclusion that the industrial relationship between the company and the trade unions within IFCE has become untenable and has broken down completely. We will therefore be suspending our attendance at any future industrial forums until such time as British Airways chooses to:
Work to honour and respect existing agreements.
Meaningfully engage in resolution of issues of importance to our members.
Commit to the objectives of the respective forums at which the trade unions sit.
It is our intention to recognise and attend the health and safety forum as a statutory legal meeting, despite the similar difficulties that we experience in this forum. We will also undertake to represent our members as covered by the disciplinary process.
We make known to you our expectation that you will continue to observe the status quo and deroster representatives to undertake office cover.
gl
The following statement was sent to BA on Friday.
The joint branches of Unite the Union wish to communicate the following to the management of In-flight Customer Experience.
It has become increasingly evident that for the first time British Airways no longer respects the Agreements, policies and the respective industrial forums at which the trade unions represent our members and that the company is now either unwilling to engage, or has deliberately adopted a position to undermine trade unions within British Airways.
In short meetings between us have become a charade.
We have come to the unfortunate conclusion that the industrial relationship between the company and the trade unions within IFCE has become untenable and has broken down completely. We will therefore be suspending our attendance at any future industrial forums until such time as British Airways chooses to:
Work to honour and respect existing agreements.
Meaningfully engage in resolution of issues of importance to our members.
Commit to the objectives of the respective forums at which the trade unions sit.
It is our intention to recognise and attend the health and safety forum as a statutory legal meeting, despite the similar difficulties that we experience in this forum. We will also undertake to represent our members as covered by the disciplinary process.
We make known to you our expectation that you will continue to observe the status quo and deroster representatives to undertake office cover.
gl
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The above Unite statement was what I was referring to when I said that Unite were refusing to engage with BA. That was the email the senior manager read at our In-Touch day last Friday.
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Re post 4721
Fincastle84,
And I quote you.....'Im actually more concerned for the loyal staff members throughout BA who are having to endure this prolonged persecution by an out of touch union membership who have no concern other than to feather their own greedy nests by continuing with their antiquated system of restrictive practices. That's how our ship yards used to operate until the '80s, & look what happened to them.'
What a lovely man you must be!!!! And BALPA isn't about looking out for the far far far richer nests (T&C's) of their members...... cheap, ignorant and hypocritical speak don't you think? I'm a union member and will do the right thing for my family in trying to protect & limit any damage to my nest & I will accept negotiated changes as BALPA have been able to do given a willingness from BA to do so..... feathering/greed is way off the mark!
For those that think life for cc would be much better without a union then the same must also be true for our flight crew ie NO BASSA & NO BALPA....... just maybe that is WW's long-term plan after all.
And I quote you.....'Im actually more concerned for the loyal staff members throughout BA who are having to endure this prolonged persecution by an out of touch union membership who have no concern other than to feather their own greedy nests by continuing with their antiquated system of restrictive practices. That's how our ship yards used to operate until the '80s, & look what happened to them.'
What a lovely man you must be!!!! And BALPA isn't about looking out for the far far far richer nests (T&C's) of their members...... cheap, ignorant and hypocritical speak don't you think? I'm a union member and will do the right thing for my family in trying to protect & limit any damage to my nest & I will accept negotiated changes as BALPA have been able to do given a willingness from BA to do so..... feathering/greed is way off the mark!
For those that think life for cc would be much better without a union then the same must also be true for our flight crew ie NO BASSA & NO BALPA....... just maybe that is WW's long-term plan after all.
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Originally Posted by winstonsmith
Why did BA not remove the Purser in First and let Purser in Club stay - probably because they want main cabin crew to learn how to operate the galley before replacing the Purser in First - which would have been a huge chaos if done the other way around.
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Last time I checked enhancing the polarization between parties wasn't the quickest route to a solution. 
Lets just hope that tomorrow they (BA and Unite) will find some line of reasoning that allows them to return to the negotiation table without losing face.
I can't see BA giving up newfleet (and as a shareholder I would not want them to either!) but if this is essential for Unite I am afraid I see no point to negotiations.
In the Netherlands courts sometimes appoint an independent mediator in these kinds of disputes who delivers a solution binding for both parties. That would be good here too.
Lets just hope that tomorrow they (BA and Unite) will find some line of reasoning that allows them to return to the negotiation table without losing face.
I can't see BA giving up newfleet (and as a shareholder I would not want them to either!) but if this is essential for Unite I am afraid I see no point to negotiations.
In the Netherlands courts sometimes appoint an independent mediator in these kinds of disputes who delivers a solution binding for both parties. That would be good here too.