British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Whilst I personally don't think the Company will sack strikers, the maths for doing it is pretty startling.
2000 crew sacked on day 1. Total cost with a maximum £20k payout each, £40m (in 18 months time). That looks cheap to me if the alternative is a long drawn out strike costing £100m a week.
As I say, I don't think they'll do it - it would look appalling in the press and I cant think of an example when its been done, but I've now done 4 LH sectors since imposition and heard no gripes from the crews at all. Whether the desire to risk all still exists when you are due to report on day 1 of any IA is the biggie.
2000 crew sacked on day 1. Total cost with a maximum £20k payout each, £40m (in 18 months time). That looks cheap to me if the alternative is a long drawn out strike costing £100m a week.
As I say, I don't think they'll do it - it would look appalling in the press and I cant think of an example when its been done, but I've now done 4 LH sectors since imposition and heard no gripes from the crews at all. Whether the desire to risk all still exists when you are due to report on day 1 of any IA is the biggie.
This doesn't look at all like a communication from a union that is confident of a 'Yes' vote in the ballot. The highlighting is mine.
A UniteBA newsletter:
Torture? Death? Most basic human right? Oh dear, priorities are amiss here. In any event, it certainly isn't indicative of the overwhelming 'Yes' result that some feel it will be. Maybe the union are preparing to 'soften up' the voters for a possible 'No' result?
A UniteBA newsletter:
50% 50% 50%
Will we achieve it?
This week you will have the opportunity to vote in an industrial action ballot, this is a precious and yet fragile right for every single one of us.
In the not too distant past, and still in many countries around the world today, people have made huge sacrifices, risked imprisonment, torture and even death to obtain this most basic human right.
Your ballot will be legal and our dispute lawful
When it comes down to it, and a company is hell bent on imposing change against the wishes and well being of its employees, when argument, reason and even concession has failed, there is no other way to influence a company than to withdraw one’s labour for a period of time.
That is what we are asking you to do, no more and no less.
The last time we had a ballot for industrial action we received a staggering 96.1% support and the issues this time are, in many ways, far more serious but we know this will be difficult to repeat; that was a unique outpouring against the way this company was being run. Sadly it’s still being run in the same way but we are realistic enough to know such a monumental result will be difficult to achieve twice.
Every single YES vote will send a clear message that change must be negotiated and agreed. Every NO vote will say exactly the opposite.
It is as simple as that.
This is a joint ballot of all UNITE members belonging to both BASSA and Amicus sections; that is over 12,500 people at two separate bases on a whole variety of contracts, that is a lot of people to get support from on very limited resources.
More than likely most of you will be dragged in on an in-touch day and told exactly how and which way you should vote.
We can only do our best and we believe we have, to the best of our ability, spelled out the dangers and consequences of these impositions.
When you receive your ballot and you sit in the privacy of your own home to make your choice and vote, vote for your own future and what it means to you and what you want it to be
There will not be a second chance!
Will we achieve it?
This week you will have the opportunity to vote in an industrial action ballot, this is a precious and yet fragile right for every single one of us.
In the not too distant past, and still in many countries around the world today, people have made huge sacrifices, risked imprisonment, torture and even death to obtain this most basic human right.
Your ballot will be legal and our dispute lawful
When it comes down to it, and a company is hell bent on imposing change against the wishes and well being of its employees, when argument, reason and even concession has failed, there is no other way to influence a company than to withdraw one’s labour for a period of time.
That is what we are asking you to do, no more and no less.
The last time we had a ballot for industrial action we received a staggering 96.1% support and the issues this time are, in many ways, far more serious but we know this will be difficult to repeat; that was a unique outpouring against the way this company was being run. Sadly it’s still being run in the same way but we are realistic enough to know such a monumental result will be difficult to achieve twice.
Every single YES vote will send a clear message that change must be negotiated and agreed. Every NO vote will say exactly the opposite.
It is as simple as that.
This is a joint ballot of all UNITE members belonging to both BASSA and Amicus sections; that is over 12,500 people at two separate bases on a whole variety of contracts, that is a lot of people to get support from on very limited resources.
More than likely most of you will be dragged in on an in-touch day and told exactly how and which way you should vote.
We can only do our best and we believe we have, to the best of our ability, spelled out the dangers and consequences of these impositions.
When you receive your ballot and you sit in the privacy of your own home to make your choice and vote, vote for your own future and what it means to you and what you want it to be
There will not be a second chance!
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Jockster....
BA cabin crew are 68% higher than the market rate and probably 100% above the market rate for service industry employees in the UK.
Now this is a very straightforward question that I cannot seem to get an answer too.
Throughout this thread posters continually go on about 'Market Rate' - against which other airlines are you comparing BA Cabin Crew too in this 'Market Rate' comparison?
Now this is a very straightforward question that I cannot seem to get an answer too.
Throughout this thread posters continually go on about 'Market Rate' - against which other airlines are you comparing BA Cabin Crew too in this 'Market Rate' comparison?
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tomkins,
Ironically yes. Bear with me please Moderators! For a very similar reason but the main difference was that instead of 9 months of negotiations there were none, instead of not moving our T's & C's since the 80's we had rationlised every time the company required, we were and are cheaper than 'industry standard' rate for LH and we were protected by a scope clause the we believed protected our T's & C's within Europe.
None of that worked, IA was called for and BALPA lost huge sums of money in court when they were legally 'broadsided'. Personally I didn't support IA in that case.
So, is there a comparison to the current CC dispute? Nope. Why not? Because the company HAS tried to engage, the company has offered to withdraw New Fleet if the cost savings were achieved elsewhere. The CC have, on the back of BASSA's one success, managed to hold on to T's & C's well above the industry standard. The CC don't have a SCOPE clause, pity really because BASSA could have negotiated one 20 odd years ago.
Cost savings MUST be achieved. Now is the time for BASSA to pay the piper and the company WILL have contingency plans in the wings.
Play hard ball and you must be prepared for the consequences.
Ironically yes. Bear with me please Moderators! For a very similar reason but the main difference was that instead of 9 months of negotiations there were none, instead of not moving our T's & C's since the 80's we had rationlised every time the company required, we were and are cheaper than 'industry standard' rate for LH and we were protected by a scope clause the we believed protected our T's & C's within Europe.
None of that worked, IA was called for and BALPA lost huge sums of money in court when they were legally 'broadsided'. Personally I didn't support IA in that case.
So, is there a comparison to the current CC dispute? Nope. Why not? Because the company HAS tried to engage, the company has offered to withdraw New Fleet if the cost savings were achieved elsewhere. The CC have, on the back of BASSA's one success, managed to hold on to T's & C's well above the industry standard. The CC don't have a SCOPE clause, pity really because BASSA could have negotiated one 20 odd years ago.
Cost savings MUST be achieved. Now is the time for BASSA to pay the piper and the company WILL have contingency plans in the wings.
Play hard ball and you must be prepared for the consequences.
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DC3. Walsh had no need, legal or ethical, to make the public announcements which he did.
The point made about JAL is not totally relevant. We are not JAL, and despite times not been good we are not actually on the very brink of collapse. We stil have enough cash reserves to maintain our credit plus more for strike busting. JAL have no such luxuries. There seems a slight irony that BA are prepared to invest time into JAL to help them when we are, according to the CEO, on the brink ourselves. Oh, I know the strategic importance to BA and the Oneworld Alliance which JAL provide.
The point made about JAL is not totally relevant. We are not JAL, and despite times not been good we are not actually on the very brink of collapse. We stil have enough cash reserves to maintain our credit plus more for strike busting. JAL have no such luxuries. There seems a slight irony that BA are prepared to invest time into JAL to help them when we are, according to the CEO, on the brink ourselves. Oh, I know the strategic importance to BA and the Oneworld Alliance which JAL provide.
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A.Lurker
I don't know how one would go about defining the criteria for the much discussed 'Market Rate' that BA keeps promising to keep cabin crew at least 10% above, but the CAA website clearly shows BA cabin crew earning 50% more than their nearest competitors in 2008....average CC wage was £29,900 compared to the nearest UK airline, whose average CC salary was £20,000- this doesn't take into account how amazingly BA look after us (WAY fewer productive hours per year, free carpark/uniform/staff travel/better pension etc etc)
I believe, as many others do, that our Cabin Crew should keep that edge, I really do, but I think the time has come to prove we really deserve it, by making concessions to our working practices to keep our great airline great
VOTE NO, KEEP YOUR JOB AT THE TOP
I don't know how one would go about defining the criteria for the much discussed 'Market Rate' that BA keeps promising to keep cabin crew at least 10% above, but the CAA website clearly shows BA cabin crew earning 50% more than their nearest competitors in 2008....average CC wage was £29,900 compared to the nearest UK airline, whose average CC salary was £20,000- this doesn't take into account how amazingly BA look after us (WAY fewer productive hours per year, free carpark/uniform/staff travel/better pension etc etc)
I believe, as many others do, that our Cabin Crew should keep that edge, I really do, but I think the time has come to prove we really deserve it, by making concessions to our working practices to keep our great airline great
VOTE NO, KEEP YOUR JOB AT THE TOP
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you are not crew then.
You should try getting a few hours sleep in the middle of the day when you have only been up a few hours anyway just because you have a night sector home. Even if you do get some rest you will find your body naturally wants to sleep in the middle of the night.
I am just back from a BOS JFK B2B with 3 night sectors and the longest break we got was on sector one of 55 mins and the shortest being 45 mins. I would get more breaks working in a call centre or Tescos.
As for getting the cabin secure we also really struggled and it has nothing to do with breaks as all cabin secures are 20 mins out on long haul flights. We tried doing it 30 mins out on the very last sector and you should of listened to the abuse from passengers that caused.
I am just back from a BOS JFK B2B with 3 night sectors and the longest break we got was on sector one of 55 mins and the shortest being 45 mins. I would get more breaks working in a call centre or Tescos.
As for getting the cabin secure we also really struggled and it has nothing to do with breaks as all cabin secures are 20 mins out on long haul flights. We tried doing it 30 mins out on the very last sector and you should of listened to the abuse from passengers that caused.
As for getting the cabin secure we also really struggled and it has nothing to do with breaks as all cabin secures are 20 mins out on long haul flights.
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dantheflyboy..
Oh well done you trooper!
Try doing the same being 2 crew flight deck...5 times a month...oh, with NO rest! At all! Nada! None!!
In the rest of the industry, sub-12 hours, as crew, you are not entitled to ANY rest!
I've resisted so far..but wake up to reality FFS!!!
Oh well done you trooper!
Try doing the same being 2 crew flight deck...5 times a month...oh, with NO rest! At all! Nada! None!!
In the rest of the industry, sub-12 hours, as crew, you are not entitled to ANY rest!
I've resisted so far..but wake up to reality FFS!!!
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Personally (as flight deck), I'm hoping for a YES vote: -
If the crew vote is NO there will be wishy washy compromise where everyones a winner blah blah .... and to be honest that is the way of the world - negotiation not confrontation. It's all very grey.
If the crew vote is NO there will be wishy washy compromise where everyones a winner blah blah .... and to be honest that is the way of the world - negotiation not confrontation. It's all very grey.
A NO vote sends a HUGE message to the Union that we ITS' MEMBERS have had enough.
We've had enough of being told to down tools because the company want us to do something differently. We've had enough of strike ballots every 18months. We've had enough of the negativity that is the union.
We all joined this company because we are people people. We love looking after people; it's in our blood. Many of us have come from other airlines that either no longer exist (Air2000, Excel, BMed, etc) or others that are struggling big time (BMI, Virgin, etc.). Why did we leave those airlines? Because we love BA. We all (without exception) wanted to work for the largest and best British airline. It is what every crew member within Britain (and even across the globe) aspires too.
We have not forgotten that. This Union are completely negative when we are by nature positive people. This union keep telling us not to serve customers (hot towels in WT+, CW 2nd meal service), to cancel flights, to go on strike, etc. etc. Well, we want to serve customers, we want to operate flights, We don't want to strike. We came here to be the best, and we can all still remember the pride we felt the first time we stepped into the uniform.
Working with one crew member less still leaves us a lot better off than our colleagues we left behind in those other now struggling airlines. We know in our hearts, that even with the changes, we're still better off. And we intend to keep it. We want to feel proud in this uniform for many years to come.
By voting NO, we the members will tell this Union, in a way that management have so far not been able to, that it's time to move on. Enough is Enough.
Of course, if it is a YES vote, then it will simply mean WW will do what he has to do, be that enforcing new contracts, sacking, whatever. Either way, BA will get what they want. The Union cannot win this one. It's about time they faced that reality.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 26th Nov 2009 at 21:49.
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Some would be happy with the wage and lifestyle - the type that work pretty hard and are now Pursers/CM's at LGW and enjoy their lot in life if you like.
The Junior crew members may have a higher turnover - but this more than likely suits BA in terms of cost and has already been seen to work for other airlines.
It's ironic really that what was originally not a life long job is returning to being so for those who aspire to a certain wage (and tax
) bracket.It's also quite sad but, I fear, inevitable.
A Heathrow modle is unsustainable these days. The main competitors for BA these days are the likes of Emirates, Etihad, Cathay, SIA etc on longhaul and loco's on shorthaul. All of these airlines pay significantly less for their crew and squeeze more productivity from them.
Is this fair? probably not but that's Business - and for BA to survive it has to get as much as it can from it's workforce.
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Oh please!
Busta do you really think we deserve no rest on flights less than 12 hrs? You get to bid for your work so why you are bidding for all 2 man FD trips if it is so hard for you. Plus I can't think of a night sector that I have done that you guys haven't spent most of the flight on controlled rest. Before you launch into one espcially as you don't know me, I have smelt the coffee and I voted NO! FYI the CSD was shutting down AVOD and sorting out the galley as we dumped the headsets,papers, cups etc from the cabin. I have every respect for your work load on your side of the door, it's a shame you can't respect ours.
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now now boys....
A.Lurker,
Hi, you asked for the location for the payscales on CAA website....sorry for being lame, but I remember it took me bl**dy ages last time to find them, so will decline at this time of night if that's ok? They are there, but it's all hidden amongst the general quagmire of what I can honestly say is the worst, least user-friendly website I have ever seen! Good luck and happy hunting, but take a torch and some rations, it'll be a long night!ATB
A.Lurker,
Hi, you asked for the location for the payscales on CAA website....sorry for being lame, but I remember it took me bl**dy ages last time to find them, so will decline at this time of night if that's ok? They are there, but it's all hidden amongst the general quagmire of what I can honestly say is the worst, least user-friendly website I have ever seen! Good luck and happy hunting, but take a torch and some rations, it'll be a long night!ATB
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Perhaps someone could tell me if this is good or bad:
A packed J class cabin on a GF 340 from the Gulf to the Far East the night of the big Muslim holiday of Eid Al Adha.
Got a glass of sparkly before take off when my food order was taken, a drinks and full meal service all completed within 80 minutes of push back, including the extra drinks requests from some of our more devout fellow passengers, by two cheerful crew members who I know earn less than their BA counterparts, assisted in part by one of their senior colleagues. They even took the breakfast order when people woke up rather than taking it before or during the dinner service. And that was perfect as well.
I didn't count but I think it was ten rows of 6 people?
And the food was excellent and not cold or overcooked.
I've decided as a result of this thread that I shouldn't just accept it, so I asked for a comment card and wrote a letter of praise. I handed it to the cabin senior in front of the other two, unsealed, and thanked them all personally for making the flight such a pleasure and told them I was happy if for them to read it.
I would urge anyone on this thread to do the same, and not to be reticent about commenting on poor staff as well. Perhaps this would assist BA in identifying the staff it really needs, and the passengers would prefer on its aircraft when it has to start making decisions. Of course you are relying on negative comment being passed on, so you might want to do that via email when you get home.
Regarding earlier mentions of "The Times", their journalist clearly uses the Internet as his source, which is typical of this once great newspaper.
Since Murdoch acquired it, standards have dropped to that of the other rags he owns, such as the Sun, News of the World and New York Post.
The Indy, Telegraph and Grauniad are far ahead of it in quality and journalistic integrity.
VOTE NO AND RESIGN FROM BASSA!
A packed J class cabin on a GF 340 from the Gulf to the Far East the night of the big Muslim holiday of Eid Al Adha.
Got a glass of sparkly before take off when my food order was taken, a drinks and full meal service all completed within 80 minutes of push back, including the extra drinks requests from some of our more devout fellow passengers, by two cheerful crew members who I know earn less than their BA counterparts, assisted in part by one of their senior colleagues. They even took the breakfast order when people woke up rather than taking it before or during the dinner service. And that was perfect as well.
I didn't count but I think it was ten rows of 6 people?
And the food was excellent and not cold or overcooked.
I've decided as a result of this thread that I shouldn't just accept it, so I asked for a comment card and wrote a letter of praise. I handed it to the cabin senior in front of the other two, unsealed, and thanked them all personally for making the flight such a pleasure and told them I was happy if for them to read it.
I would urge anyone on this thread to do the same, and not to be reticent about commenting on poor staff as well. Perhaps this would assist BA in identifying the staff it really needs, and the passengers would prefer on its aircraft when it has to start making decisions. Of course you are relying on negative comment being passed on, so you might want to do that via email when you get home.
Regarding earlier mentions of "The Times", their journalist clearly uses the Internet as his source, which is typical of this once great newspaper.
Since Murdoch acquired it, standards have dropped to that of the other rags he owns, such as the Sun, News of the World and New York Post.
The Indy, Telegraph and Grauniad are far ahead of it in quality and journalistic integrity.
VOTE NO AND RESIGN FROM BASSA!
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"Unite understands the need to cut costs, but job losses seem to be the kneejerk reaction. To cut jobs so close to Christmas is at best insensitive.”
The quote is part of Unite's reaction to BMI's need to make redundancies. Perhaps Unite would now like to tell the assembled multitude how that statement squares with the threat of strike action so close to Christmas. Double Speak!
The quote is part of Unite's reaction to BMI's need to make redundancies. Perhaps Unite would now like to tell the assembled multitude how that statement squares with the threat of strike action so close to Christmas. Double Speak!