British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Fume Event
You wrote:"Why didn't he impose on the 30th June as he threatened? No he deliberately let it roll to the 16th November, so that when the inevitable response from the union was declared, the timing of the ballot and the notice of IA, would cause a strike to be initiated over Christmas"
Lets put a stop to that Unite/BASSA myth right now.
The Law regarding Ballots and Industrial Action (IA) states that I.A. may start at anytime between 7 days and 21 days after the result is announced. Therefore BASSA/Unite could have chosen to initiate I.A. at anytime between 21 Dec and the 11th January.
In short BASSA/Unite chose to strike over Christmas.
Lets put a stop to that Unite/BASSA myth right now.
The Law regarding Ballots and Industrial Action (IA) states that I.A. may start at anytime between 7 days and 21 days after the result is announced. Therefore BASSA/Unite could have chosen to initiate I.A. at anytime between 21 Dec and the 11th January.
In short BASSA/Unite chose to strike over Christmas.
Last edited by wiggy; 17th Dec 2009 at 05:40. Reason: spelling
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As much as I disagree with this dispute I think it is getting out of hand when newspapers are focusing on our representatives and revealing their lives like this.
I have worked with Lizanne on a couple of flights and she is absolutely lovely and very good at her work.
All of us are entitled to choose where we want to live, HOW we want to live, if we want to have a swimming pool or not and which car we want to drive. Crew can live wherever they want as long as they can get to work when rostered. To publish this sort of nonsense is sad.
I have worked with Lizanne on a couple of flights and she is absolutely lovely and very good at her work.
All of us are entitled to choose where we want to live, HOW we want to live, if we want to have a swimming pool or not and which car we want to drive. Crew can live wherever they want as long as they can get to work when rostered. To publish this sort of nonsense is sad.
Alexandraa
It is sad, but I'm afraid these days it goes with the territory once you are in the public eye - especially if your Reps and others are spinning in the comments/feedback sections of various newspapers that Cabin Crew are overworked, knackered and generally have a hard time . I'm afraid that one or two of your colleagues appearing on the front page of Socialist Worker is heaven sent to a Right hate sheet like the Mail..
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As much as I disagree with this dispute I think it is getting out of hand when newspapers are focusing on our representatives and revealing their lives like this.
I have worked with Lizanne on a couple of flights and she is absolutely lovely and very good at her work.
All of us are entitled to choose where we want to live, HOW we want to live, if we want to have a swimming pool or not and which car we want to drive. Crew can live wherever they want as long as they can get to work when rostered. To publish this sort of nonsense is sad.
I have worked with Lizanne on a couple of flights and she is absolutely lovely and very good at her work.
All of us are entitled to choose where we want to live, HOW we want to live, if we want to have a swimming pool or not and which car we want to drive. Crew can live wherever they want as long as they can get to work when rostered. To publish this sort of nonsense is sad.
The media will be firmly on the side of the public whose Christmas holidays could be wrecked by the Union's senseless action and when the stream of other news dries up as we approach Christmas, this is just the start in terms of media coverage. Expect full front page coverage on almost every newspaper over Christmas.
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Sorry Alex, nail your colours to the mast then live with the consequences.
Work for the detriment of a multi million dollar company then you need to be whiter than white, if you are not, then you should have kept your stupid mouth shut.
40 thousand people depend on BA for their livelihood, risk that then stand by.
As much as I disagree with this dispute I think it is getting out of hand when newspapers are focusing on our representatives and revealing their lives like this.
I have worked with Lizanne on a couple of flights and she is absolutely lovely and very good at her work.
All of us are entitled to choose where we want to live, HOW we want to live, if we want to have a swimming pool or not and which car we want to drive. Crew can live wherever they want as long as they can get to work when rostered. To publish this sort of nonsense is sad
I have worked with Lizanne on a couple of flights and she is absolutely lovely and very good at her work.
All of us are entitled to choose where we want to live, HOW we want to live, if we want to have a swimming pool or not and which car we want to drive. Crew can live wherever they want as long as they can get to work when rostered. To publish this sort of nonsense is sad
40 thousand people depend on BA for their livelihood, risk that then stand by.
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I won't shut up about who gets paid what..........it was Ottergirl who happily, even proudly perhaps, stated that she earned more than a junior FO. I acknowledged her undoubted professionalism.
Its about levels of responsibility and skill levels. If people cannot or WILL NOT accept that there is a justifiably positive correllation between these and pay levels, then they have serious intellectual issues.....
ERGO, a pilot, irrespective of her or his seniority, is worth more than the best, most experienced member of cabin crew. No debate. End of. I totally accept that it's the Company's fault that this farcical situation currently exists within BA.
The reason this is relevant is the fact that we have so many CC who believe that this argument is completely spurious - perhaps even laughable!! CC have had so much smoke blown up their collective arses over the years that they actually now believe all the hyperbole - BA CC are the best, most talented, hard working, empathetic(to the passengers' needs), best VALUE CC in the whole, wide world!!!! Even worth more than the pilots up at the pointy end!
Too many BA CC are completely institutionalised and their distorted view of their self worth has coloured their view of the current situation. Worse still, it has led to so many misguided ballot votes...
God help OUR Company.
Its about levels of responsibility and skill levels. If people cannot or WILL NOT accept that there is a justifiably positive correllation between these and pay levels, then they have serious intellectual issues.....
ERGO, a pilot, irrespective of her or his seniority, is worth more than the best, most experienced member of cabin crew. No debate. End of. I totally accept that it's the Company's fault that this farcical situation currently exists within BA.
The reason this is relevant is the fact that we have so many CC who believe that this argument is completely spurious - perhaps even laughable!! CC have had so much smoke blown up their collective arses over the years that they actually now believe all the hyperbole - BA CC are the best, most talented, hard working, empathetic(to the passengers' needs), best VALUE CC in the whole, wide world!!!! Even worth more than the pilots up at the pointy end!
Too many BA CC are completely institutionalised and their distorted view of their self worth has coloured their view of the current situation. Worse still, it has led to so many misguided ballot votes...
God help OUR Company.
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Here I go on again on my soapbox!
I do think that alot of the articles are overexaggerated with our pay etc. I CAN believe the average gross pay is around 29K easily - including allowances. Where the articles misleads though is that it implies we earn 29K PLUS 10K in allowances - all for 17 hours a week work. Laughable especially if you are a Eurofleet or Gatwick fleet. I would agree we are paid more than other airlines and work less especially on shorthaul - but not that less!!!
I would say however that everyone does live within their means... so whether we are overpaid or not you cannot just take peoples pay just like that. Even if they are on well over the odds. What is acceptable though is paying FUTURE crew on market rate plus 10% like BA proposed.... SO LONG as they ensure current crew are protected.... I fully understand why fellow crew are worried about starvation of work, being forced to New Fleet blah blah, but Bill has said he's willing to talk to introduce deals to protect this - like the Monthly Travel Payment etc... yes it would need to be negotiated to be decent but hey, this is what we pay our union for no? Again for those of us who want to go for promotion, the union are shouting no more promotions unless you go to New Fleet, well why not negotiate a deal that will mean current crew going for promotion on New Fleet will have decent T&Cs even if they are not the same as now.
I'm digressing now but just I can think of loads that could be put on the table.... how about asking members for ideas.... they would never do that though, for the reasons Hiflyer stated earlier....
EDITED TO ADD: I agree the company is not proposing a paycut which I think is more than fair and am totally AGAINST the strike, and I do think that changes are NEEDED... BA's proposals are fair.
I would say however that everyone does live within their means... so whether we are overpaid or not you cannot just take peoples pay just like that. Even if they are on well over the odds. What is acceptable though is paying FUTURE crew on market rate plus 10% like BA proposed.... SO LONG as they ensure current crew are protected.... I fully understand why fellow crew are worried about starvation of work, being forced to New Fleet blah blah, but Bill has said he's willing to talk to introduce deals to protect this - like the Monthly Travel Payment etc... yes it would need to be negotiated to be decent but hey, this is what we pay our union for no? Again for those of us who want to go for promotion, the union are shouting no more promotions unless you go to New Fleet, well why not negotiate a deal that will mean current crew going for promotion on New Fleet will have decent T&Cs even if they are not the same as now.
I'm digressing now but just I can think of loads that could be put on the table.... how about asking members for ideas.... they would never do that though, for the reasons Hiflyer stated earlier....
EDITED TO ADD: I agree the company is not proposing a paycut which I think is more than fair and am totally AGAINST the strike, and I do think that changes are NEEDED... BA's proposals are fair.
Last edited by SlideBustle; 16th Dec 2009 at 23:39.
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The Mail article is brilliant because it is entirely true. Unfortunately, it will be very damaging to the rest of the crew as know the public think they all live like that. What the newspapers need to do is to highlight the differences in contracts across the bases, which is essentially the main reason behind this dispute. For example, the crew at LGW who are eligible to apply for Working Tax Credits to boost there income, compared to the crew who run the Union, commute from LA, and can still afford to go part time...?
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Wiggy
No, you are right that these are the sort of things they would need to prepare themselves to. This is good reading and what people want to read but it is concerning as it will hurt the entire cabin crew community.
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flyingchick
What is your problem?
In case you have been asleep for the past year - BA has already been negotiating with all other departments in the company and come to an agreement with each and every one of them - but you were probably far too self-absorbed.
You are such a disgrace to this airline - go and stand in the corner
What is your problem?
In case you have been asleep for the past year - BA has already been negotiating with all other departments in the company and come to an agreement with each and every one of them - but you were probably far too self-absorbed.
You are such a disgrace to this airline - go and stand in the corner
Methinks someone needs to grow up and stop being so self centred.
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Slidebustle
"so whether we are overpaid or not you cannot just take peoples pay just like that. "
They aren't though are they? They aren't touching anyone's pay.
However, they have done elsewhere in the company, both voluntarily and compulsorily. And I don't know whether or not you've noticed, but it's been happening right across the private sector in this country and beyond. I've had pay cuts because of the financial difficulties from several of those for whom I work, and so have people in a whole host of industries. Why should you be different? Serious question.
They aren't though are they? They aren't touching anyone's pay.
However, they have done elsewhere in the company, both voluntarily and compulsorily. And I don't know whether or not you've noticed, but it's been happening right across the private sector in this country and beyond. I've had pay cuts because of the financial difficulties from several of those for whom I work, and so have people in a whole host of industries. Why should you be different? Serious question.
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Papillon, forgive me! Forgot to add that in there. No they are not. I am in the ''No to strike'' crowd and I agree BA are not proposing a pay cut. Why I posted that was that some people may see those figures and THINK we DESERVE a pay cut. Which if was a small paycut to help us through the recession then fair enough better than being out of a job!
But no I agree that they are not proposing one which for a start is more than fair, especially with other departments, other people from other companies etc.... Future crew will be on market rate PLUS 10% - fair enough they are still paying that bit more than other airlines and many will be willing to work for that... Times change, and as long as it is not less than other airlines it's fair. So long as they protect us (which in fairness Bill has proposed various things) I won't repeat myself but yes, their current proposals (crew complements et al) are fair, their remaining proposals for future crew and productivity - can be negotiated to make it fair again..... only if the Union is willing to accept change is needed and it isn't the 1970s anymore. Something I believe they have missed
But no I agree that they are not proposing one which for a start is more than fair, especially with other departments, other people from other companies etc.... Future crew will be on market rate PLUS 10% - fair enough they are still paying that bit more than other airlines and many will be willing to work for that... Times change, and as long as it is not less than other airlines it's fair. So long as they protect us (which in fairness Bill has proposed various things) I won't repeat myself but yes, their current proposals (crew complements et al) are fair, their remaining proposals for future crew and productivity - can be negotiated to make it fair again..... only if the Union is willing to accept change is needed and it isn't the 1970s anymore. Something I believe they have missed
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Being lucky enough to work for a company that gives me time downroute, and industry leading terms and conditions (which is why I am happy to give them a PERMANENT 2.6% pay cut, a PERMANENT 20% cut in allowances and PERMANENT reduction to 3 crew operation to most of our previously 4 crew destinations) I (like the 14 people from my crew here in one of the world's greatest cities for 48 hours in a 4 * hotel) have time to peruse tomorrows newspapers.
The London Times
"Internal politics at the union Unite have played a significant part in the latest industrial dispute to engulf British Airways."
The London and Manchester Guardian
"Internal union politics have also emerged as a complicating factor in the search for a compromise. It is understood that Unite's leadership considered delaying the announcement of strike dates on Monday after BA threatened legal action over the ballot, but pushed ahead amid pressure from Bassa"
The Independent
"The background to the strike is made more complicated by the internecine politics of Unite, Britain's biggest trade union"
The Telegraph
"It is being carried on against a backdrop of a battle for the job of general secretary of the mammoth Unite trade union. "
Oops. No wonder we all found it so hard to actually work out what the strike was about. Pay cut? No. Job cuts? No. Massive changes to terms and conditions? No. Chances that Len McClusky would become next leader of a Union? Ermm, possibly.
I hope, for all the CC, that the judge tomorrow gives BA that injunction. Then we can take a deep breath and realise what a golden goose we nearly shot. If she doesn't...................
The London Times
"Internal politics at the union Unite have played a significant part in the latest industrial dispute to engulf British Airways."
The London and Manchester Guardian
"Internal union politics have also emerged as a complicating factor in the search for a compromise. It is understood that Unite's leadership considered delaying the announcement of strike dates on Monday after BA threatened legal action over the ballot, but pushed ahead amid pressure from Bassa"
The Independent
"The background to the strike is made more complicated by the internecine politics of Unite, Britain's biggest trade union"
The Telegraph
"It is being carried on against a backdrop of a battle for the job of general secretary of the mammoth Unite trade union. "
Oops. No wonder we all found it so hard to actually work out what the strike was about. Pay cut? No. Job cuts? No. Massive changes to terms and conditions? No. Chances that Len McClusky would become next leader of a Union? Ermm, possibly.
I hope, for all the CC, that the judge tomorrow gives BA that injunction. Then we can take a deep breath and realise what a golden goose we nearly shot. If she doesn't...................
Last edited by 52049er; 17th Dec 2009 at 00:39.
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Geoff Holt. Single handed paraplegic sailing the atlantic.
The Atlantic Project | Geoff Holt's Personal Atlantic
Family planned to join him when he reached the West Indies but were due to fly out on day 1 of the strike. BA have rebooked his entire family on the day before, unasked.
Ohhh they are terrible that BA lot.
The Atlantic Project | Geoff Holt's Personal Atlantic
Family planned to join him when he reached the West Indies but were due to fly out on day 1 of the strike. BA have rebooked his entire family on the day before, unasked.
Ohhh they are terrible that BA lot.
I don't think it was on offer in my borstal! 
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BA Cabin Crew - what on earth are you thinking?
I would be grateful if someone could explain to me what BA cabin crew are thinking with regard to their planned strike action. I am a bemused and concerned member of the public who (thankfully) booked my Christmas flights with Virgin, so I will not be directly affected by a strike, but I am worried about BA's future. If you really needed to strike, why on earth do it over Christmas and risk losing the goodwill of the public? Are you trying to destroy the company? Why not defer the strike until after the New Year?
As I understand it BA cabin crew are among the best paid in the industry, many are paid above the Uk average wage, but you are working for an airline that appears to be in serious financial trouble. Surely you understand that in such a situation an airline has no option but to cut costs and can only really do this by cutting staff costs, or at least by limiting the increase of such costs. My employer imposed a pay freeze this year - we were not happy but when the company half-year figures were published we realised why the decision had been taken. Had a pay rise been granted, the company would have ended up millions of pounds in the red, which would have been no good for anybody. Surely, with BA in the position it is in, the cabin crew understand the need for a financial reality check?
By the way, I must add that my personal experience of BA cabin crew over the years has been excellent, and most recently I was looked after extremely well when I cut my hand getting baggage out of the overhead locker in Paris CDG. A very lovely stewardess got the fist aid kit and patched me up while her colleague teased her about being "florence nightingale". All good fun.
But if by your strike action you wreck the airline and cause it to fail, what will you have gained?
I would love some answers.
WF
As I understand it BA cabin crew are among the best paid in the industry, many are paid above the Uk average wage, but you are working for an airline that appears to be in serious financial trouble. Surely you understand that in such a situation an airline has no option but to cut costs and can only really do this by cutting staff costs, or at least by limiting the increase of such costs. My employer imposed a pay freeze this year - we were not happy but when the company half-year figures were published we realised why the decision had been taken. Had a pay rise been granted, the company would have ended up millions of pounds in the red, which would have been no good for anybody. Surely, with BA in the position it is in, the cabin crew understand the need for a financial reality check?
By the way, I must add that my personal experience of BA cabin crew over the years has been excellent, and most recently I was looked after extremely well when I cut my hand getting baggage out of the overhead locker in Paris CDG. A very lovely stewardess got the fist aid kit and patched me up while her colleague teased her about being "florence nightingale". All good fun.
But if by your strike action you wreck the airline and cause it to fail, what will you have gained?
I would love some answers.WF
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WeekendFlyer, don't worry there are many of us BA crew who do not want to strike. Some of us are on here myself, Hiflyer, Tiramisu, Clarified, Glamgirl et al... I agree this strike is very unnecassary - Xmas or no Xmas!! We are well paid really on LHR particularly old contract compared to other airlines - the company are not proposing a pay cut, just making us work with less crew onboard, but with some changes to service over the last year it makes it more achievable - whilst still offering a v.good service. Yes, on some shorter flights, domestics etc... they could do with an extra pair of hands and some adjustments to the matrix/routines could be made - BA are accepting of the feedback and just like a recent change to Band 4 service standard in CCnews, if they get enough feedback it will change. So in this economical climate they are being VERY fair.
New Fleet proposal is the worry for many crew understandably. However the union haven't been open to negotiation over this part of the proposal instead saying No no no... BA have said they will look at other things ie. a new contract on our existing fleets for new entrants, promotions etc. but will have to make savings from doing longer days, less time off, being able to do more minimum rest etc. etc. Union don't want that either.... surprise
They offered a proposal which was less than half of what BA wanted which had rather pathetic cost saving proposals like middle east back to backs and oh let's swap a purser on 747,777 and 767 and ship off the longhaul 767 and it's routes to shorthaul because they are rubbish trips and guess what? The UNION proposed the pay cut not BA!!!!
So that's why some of us voted No and don't want to ruin people's Xmas's, distrupt our own lives and put BA at risk!! When it is Unite that have
New Fleet proposal is the worry for many crew understandably. However the union haven't been open to negotiation over this part of the proposal instead saying No no no... BA have said they will look at other things ie. a new contract on our existing fleets for new entrants, promotions etc. but will have to make savings from doing longer days, less time off, being able to do more minimum rest etc. etc. Union don't want that either.... surprise
They offered a proposal which was less than half of what BA wanted which had rather pathetic cost saving proposals like middle east back to backs and oh let's swap a purser on 747,777 and 767 and ship off the longhaul 767 and it's routes to shorthaul because they are rubbish trips and guess what? The UNION proposed the pay cut not BA!!!! So that's why some of us voted No and don't want to ruin people's Xmas's, distrupt our own lives and put BA at risk!! When it is Unite that have