British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Okay if the moderators will permit two not quite but slightly off topic points before I get to my point.
1. I used to BA Cabin Crew (for about 6 years), and still have many friends there - I now sit on the flight deck (though very much a freshly licensed chap - for want of a better expression) of another airline. As such I have a deep respect for the hard work I know goes on behind me during the flight.
I have to admit as CC sometimes I thought the Flight Crew used to appear at first sight (on long haul at least) to get away with a lot of paper reading, but as it was a career I aspired to, and one I now am very fortunate to be in, I quickly learned, that whatever may seem to be happening, The Times crossword is far too complex for me to try to complete in a day out, granted I haven't had the "pleasure" of an atlantic crossing since I left the cabin but I can assure you I don't get past page 1 on most occasions.
I think that the existing, and very unfortunate, division at BA between Cabin and Flight deck has led to less understanding about what each other's jobs entail. Therefore may I ask all to respect that we all play a vital role in ensuring a safe and pleasant flight for all aboard, and let us not belittle each others roles. I did not consider myself a meal chucker when CC nor do I consider myself to be preoccupied with the Daily Mail now I am at the pointy end.
2. I and many others do not really care when we are referred to as flight deck though it wouldn't hurt to remember it is the place we work as opposed to the job title.
My point:
It seems a great shame that many feel they are unable to voice an alternative opinion to that of their union - and it is your union. I spent a great deal of time involved with Unionism outside of the aviation industry and to steal, and alter slightly, a quote from a film I am sure will become cult in its time - "Unions should be afraid of their members not members afraid of their unions." If a situation has evolved where this is not the case then there is something deeply wrong, and that needs to be addressed urgently.
I have to say that during my time as a BASSA member I found myself disagreeing in numerous occasions yet I would not have dared to say so publicly.
Therein lies the problem with BASSA - it is more dictatorial than it is democratic and that is why I feel a great sympathy for friends still having to work under its influence. IA is a scary road to walk down, for those undertaking it, and those affected by it. Of course such an upheaval of agreements is undesirable and naturally resisted, but please. Please. Please, realise the situation that the European aviation industry currently finds itself in. PPRuNe members are not attempting to scaremonger when they say BA could fold if changes are not made, it is a real possibility, yes the BA brand is unlikely to disappear but the changes currently being proposed are nothing compared to what may be seen in any phoenix that rises from the ashes of the British Airways that I was, and I am sure you are proud, to have been a part of.
1. I used to BA Cabin Crew (for about 6 years), and still have many friends there - I now sit on the flight deck (though very much a freshly licensed chap - for want of a better expression) of another airline. As such I have a deep respect for the hard work I know goes on behind me during the flight.
I have to admit as CC sometimes I thought the Flight Crew used to appear at first sight (on long haul at least) to get away with a lot of paper reading, but as it was a career I aspired to, and one I now am very fortunate to be in, I quickly learned, that whatever may seem to be happening, The Times crossword is far too complex for me to try to complete in a day out, granted I haven't had the "pleasure" of an atlantic crossing since I left the cabin but I can assure you I don't get past page 1 on most occasions.
I think that the existing, and very unfortunate, division at BA between Cabin and Flight deck has led to less understanding about what each other's jobs entail. Therefore may I ask all to respect that we all play a vital role in ensuring a safe and pleasant flight for all aboard, and let us not belittle each others roles. I did not consider myself a meal chucker when CC nor do I consider myself to be preoccupied with the Daily Mail now I am at the pointy end.
2. I and many others do not really care when we are referred to as flight deck though it wouldn't hurt to remember it is the place we work as opposed to the job title.
My point:
It seems a great shame that many feel they are unable to voice an alternative opinion to that of their union - and it is your union. I spent a great deal of time involved with Unionism outside of the aviation industry and to steal, and alter slightly, a quote from a film I am sure will become cult in its time - "Unions should be afraid of their members not members afraid of their unions." If a situation has evolved where this is not the case then there is something deeply wrong, and that needs to be addressed urgently.
I have to say that during my time as a BASSA member I found myself disagreeing in numerous occasions yet I would not have dared to say so publicly.
Therein lies the problem with BASSA - it is more dictatorial than it is democratic and that is why I feel a great sympathy for friends still having to work under its influence. IA is a scary road to walk down, for those undertaking it, and those affected by it. Of course such an upheaval of agreements is undesirable and naturally resisted, but please. Please. Please, realise the situation that the European aviation industry currently finds itself in. PPRuNe members are not attempting to scaremonger when they say BA could fold if changes are not made, it is a real possibility, yes the BA brand is unlikely to disappear but the changes currently being proposed are nothing compared to what may be seen in any phoenix that rises from the ashes of the British Airways that I was, and I am sure you are proud, to have been a part of.
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Ok here goes.........
My father retired 5 years ago after 34 years of flying BA planes.
My brother has been flying BA planes for the past 14 years.
And obviously not having enough flight crew in the family, i married a pilot and my husband has flown BA planes for the past 18 years!!!!
( I may be giving my identity away with this info, but i am stand by what i say)
Me...... well im cabin crew and i a very well aware of conditions BOTH side of the flight deck door.
What upsets me the most about this thread, is the blatant hate some of the posters are heaping onto their COLLEUGES!!!!! If this continues we are in danger of permantly damaging the flight/cabin crew relationship, which is not good news.
I personally feel i know what the flight crew are feeling at the moment (see overstress views and they pretty much sum up my hubbys and brothers feelings!!), i have had many a heated conversation with family members alone (family sunday lunches are great at the moment, my mother has even banned BA talk during meal times
). But am also aware that some of the comms that you have recieved are NOT accurate, or at the very least biased.
Speak to most crew and you will find noone wants to strike. But we will. I WILL. I will even strike on day 1 and take on the risks involved (although i am aware of the risks i think ww would be going down a very dangerous road if he started sacking people)
I will vote to strike not to bring down BA or to damage the already damaged pension scheme, but to protect myself and my future in this job, because believe me if this goes ahead i will not have a job anyway in 2-3 years. (For any doubters to this check out the 52 week clause for SURPLUS CREW..... that us in a couple of years.)
So to repeat none of us want to strike ( well apart from the diehards), but i see the determination and anger of the crews at the moment and am certain this will result in a large YES return on the ballot no matter what is stated here. Which i hope will force WW back round the table and if not well.....
Do i think BASSA did everything right...no prob not.
Do i support BASSA.....yes
My father retired 5 years ago after 34 years of flying BA planes.
My brother has been flying BA planes for the past 14 years.
And obviously not having enough flight crew in the family, i married a pilot and my husband has flown BA planes for the past 18 years!!!!
( I may be giving my identity away with this info, but i am stand by what i say)Me...... well im cabin crew and i a very well aware of conditions BOTH side of the flight deck door.
What upsets me the most about this thread, is the blatant hate some of the posters are heaping onto their COLLEUGES!!!!! If this continues we are in danger of permantly damaging the flight/cabin crew relationship, which is not good news.
I personally feel i know what the flight crew are feeling at the moment (see overstress views and they pretty much sum up my hubbys and brothers feelings!!), i have had many a heated conversation with family members alone (family sunday lunches are great at the moment, my mother has even banned BA talk during meal times
). But am also aware that some of the comms that you have recieved are NOT accurate, or at the very least biased.Speak to most crew and you will find noone wants to strike. But we will. I WILL. I will even strike on day 1 and take on the risks involved (although i am aware of the risks i think ww would be going down a very dangerous road if he started sacking people)
I will vote to strike not to bring down BA or to damage the already damaged pension scheme, but to protect myself and my future in this job, because believe me if this goes ahead i will not have a job anyway in 2-3 years. (For any doubters to this check out the 52 week clause for SURPLUS CREW..... that us in a couple of years.)
So to repeat none of us want to strike ( well apart from the diehards), but i see the determination and anger of the crews at the moment and am certain this will result in a large YES return on the ballot no matter what is stated here. Which i hope will force WW back round the table and if not well.....
Do i think BASSA did everything right...no prob not.
Do i support BASSA.....yes
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I heart MBT
It is very nice to read such an honest and open post, and does serve to remind us all of the real people out there.
I wish you the absolute best. (And BA/Aviation talk is hard to drop even over a sunday roast so utmost respect to your Mum to.)
I know not everyone will agree with your choice to strike, but it is your choice - and when someone takes the time to post so honestly and without ranting I hope your choice and point of view are given respect whether we agee or not.
It is very nice to read such an honest and open post, and does serve to remind us all of the real people out there.
I wish you the absolute best. (And BA/Aviation talk is hard to drop even over a sunday roast so utmost respect to your Mum to.)
I know not everyone will agree with your choice to strike, but it is your choice - and when someone takes the time to post so honestly and without ranting I hope your choice and point of view are given respect whether we agee or not.
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There are some people who will vote no and who will chose not to strike and that is their choice. The fact of the matter is is that the vast majority do not accept imposition where negotiations were nothing more than a farcical pr stunt. Apparently ACAS were disgusted and what a waste of tax payers money when the imposition was long in the planning.
Dec 14th and Feb 1st cant come soon enough for the vast majority. And how effective to have a ballot and a high court trial in ones back pocket
Dec 14th and Feb 1st cant come soon enough for the vast majority. And how effective to have a ballot and a high court trial in ones back pocket
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As someone who works in the world of aviation but not for BA, it seems to me:
BA appears to be making unsustainable losses year on year, which it needs to address pretty rapido.
It has a rampaging pension fund deficit, ditto the above.
It must re-invest in new equipment and products, to remain competitive, also ditto the above.
It requires the help of The City to invest and remain in anything like its current form.
That help does not come without conditions, such as reducing costs by a considerable margin.
When looking to make those essential cost savings, senior managers look to all Depts but some are inevitably capable of contributing more than others. The CEO cannot magic those cost savings. They must be found somewhere.
It's not personal, it's business neccessity.
Protracted uncertainy about IA usually makes things worse. And then worse will possibly come.
PS Many of us are in a similar boat in uncertain times. Look around at what's going on in the world. Hope it works out for you all.
Ted
BA appears to be making unsustainable losses year on year, which it needs to address pretty rapido.
It has a rampaging pension fund deficit, ditto the above.
It must re-invest in new equipment and products, to remain competitive, also ditto the above.
It requires the help of The City to invest and remain in anything like its current form.
That help does not come without conditions, such as reducing costs by a considerable margin.
When looking to make those essential cost savings, senior managers look to all Depts but some are inevitably capable of contributing more than others. The CEO cannot magic those cost savings. They must be found somewhere.
It's not personal, it's business neccessity.
Protracted uncertainy about IA usually makes things worse. And then worse will possibly come.
PS Many of us are in a similar boat in uncertain times. Look around at what's going on in the world. Hope it works out for you all.
Ted
Last edited by teddybear44; 11th Nov 2009 at 00:44.
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Name change
"Am I bothered", if you're going to try spreading more fiction to bolster your case, I'd recommend changing your name to "Am I delusional" 
I don't know if anyone's seen this piece of prose, but its tone accurately sums up the bluster of the BASSA reps (yes I know it's from AMICUS, but hey, we're all "UNITEd", right?).
I'm just looking at the inventive maths, did Am I Delusional have anything to do with this as well?
Who else could have written the nonsensical "we acted responsibly and put forward, at the time, an incredibly well-thought-out, well calculated and some would say, generous package of cost savings to the tune of £175m."
As we say on t'internet these days, O RLY?
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/AMICUS_News_Oct2009.pdf
It's a PDF file so if you don't have a PDF reader, google "Foxit PDF Reader" and download a fast and free one.
(Actually if you have Adobe Reader, do it anyway!).
I don't know if anyone's seen this piece of prose, but its tone accurately sums up the bluster of the BASSA reps (yes I know it's from AMICUS, but hey, we're all "UNITEd", right?).
I'm just looking at the inventive maths, did Am I Delusional have anything to do with this as well?
Who else could have written the nonsensical "we acted responsibly and put forward, at the time, an incredibly well-thought-out, well calculated and some would say, generous package of cost savings to the tune of £175m."
As we say on t'internet these days, O RLY?
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/AMICUS_News_Oct2009.pdf
It's a PDF file so if you don't have a PDF reader, google "Foxit PDF Reader" and download a fast and free one.
(Actually if you have Adobe Reader, do it anyway!).
Last edited by Desertia; 11th Nov 2009 at 07:21. Reason: AND I found this....
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So you don`t think it could happen to BA.Well British Midland`s (BMI) accountants have stated that it may go bust within a year.This is a major LHR airline with almost 5000 employees.If you think a strike vote is a good way of calling Mr Walsh`s bluff then I would urge you to think again.And there may well be 5000 fully trained and grateful people who would gladly take your jobs,never mind the 2000 cabin crew in in the temporary holding pool at the moment.
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"am I bothered" if you are correct and ACAS stated what you say, how can ACAS have any credibility in any future negotiations in any industrial disagreement.
You have sadly disillusioned me.
I had always thought that ACAS was one of the most unbiased bodies we have in the UK.
I had also thought that both sides went to ACAS knowing it would respect their privacy.
I also read once that JFK was alive and well and living with Elvis on the moon.
You have sadly disillusioned me.
I had always thought that ACAS was one of the most unbiased bodies we have in the UK.
I had also thought that both sides went to ACAS knowing it would respect their privacy.
I also read once that JFK was alive and well and living with Elvis on the moon.
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From the UniteBA website:
Not just problems with the legal process's then?
There still seems to be no 'official' reason for the ballot yet? Could it possibly be that by trying to gain injunction against a non contractual imposition Unite have had the 'legal wind' taken out of their sails?
Still no one seems to be able to pin down exactly what the contractual change is? A two year pay freeze hardly seems untenable given the current financial state of the Airline? There doesn't appear to be anything else of a 'Contract' nature to argue about?
So, what are those who are going to tick 'Yes' going to tick 'Yes' about?
BASSA have handled this whole thing so badly that even the militant minority seem to have little or no idea what the industrial action is going to be about.
My sympathies go to all those moderate, hard working crew who have been left totally in the dark over this feeding of scraps and tidbits of rhetoric thrown out by the BASSA 100% brigade.
An enviable position? A ballot over something that no one seems to know anything about and the potential to lose massive amounts of money at a high court hearing that previously failed to stop imposition? I wouldn't be feel too secure yet BASSA.
Unite The Union - Amicus Section - Cabin Crew
Apologies for the inconvenience, we are having problems with the website and we hope to have this rectified as soon as possible
Apologies for the inconvenience, we are having problems with the website and we hope to have this rectified as soon as possible
There still seems to be no 'official' reason for the ballot yet? Could it possibly be that by trying to gain injunction against a non contractual imposition Unite have had the 'legal wind' taken out of their sails?
Still no one seems to be able to pin down exactly what the contractual change is? A two year pay freeze hardly seems untenable given the current financial state of the Airline? There doesn't appear to be anything else of a 'Contract' nature to argue about?
So, what are those who are going to tick 'Yes' going to tick 'Yes' about?
BASSA have handled this whole thing so badly that even the militant minority seem to have little or no idea what the industrial action is going to be about.
My sympathies go to all those moderate, hard working crew who have been left totally in the dark over this feeding of scraps and tidbits of rhetoric thrown out by the BASSA 100% brigade.
An enviable position? A ballot over something that no one seems to know anything about and the potential to lose massive amounts of money at a high court hearing that previously failed to stop imposition? I wouldn't be feel too secure yet BASSA.
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The AMICUS newsletter
If anybody wants, but can't download, the juvenile and wildly inaccurate Amicus "news" letter, then please PM me and I will be happy to forward you a copy for a laugh with your morning coffee.
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If it's Bassa, then I'm afraid it's a bit like reading a story in the Daily Mail that I'm familiar with. Having seen how inaccurately they report things to suit their own agenda, I now don't believe anything I read in it. The same goes for Bassa - They will print anything they can think of if it suits their ends.
Take any information with a huge dollop of scepticism, even from Bassa. Especially from Bassa. They have their own personal agenda remember.
Do you really think WW will back down on the back of a large Yes vote? He knows you won't strike in significant numbers. You are following a path of his making, not Bassa's, and he will be relishing the prospect of a strike vote.
A large Yes vote from Bassa impresses no-one as so many people feel voting Yes is sending a message to WW, but he knows that Bassa push the idea that a Yes vote will be all that is necessary, and so many Yes voters have no intention of striking. The strike itself will be easily delayed by the court injunction expected by BA, and the court case in Feb will result in the final humiliation for Bassa.
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Desertia,
Why do you not just copy and paste it. Alternatively email it to me and I will post it!!!!!I did that with the Unite newsletter that contained the BA #2 proposal.
I was forwarded it by a friend who had a friend who forwarded it to him.
Cheers
BD
Why do you not just copy and paste it. Alternatively email it to me and I will post it!!!!!I did that with the Unite newsletter that contained the BA #2 proposal.
I was forwarded it by a friend who had a friend who forwarded it to him.
Cheers
BD
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....this will result in a large YES return on the ballot no matter what is stated here. Which i hope will force WW back round the table and if not well.....
BASSA stormed out of a meeting with BA, under ACAS, where BA wanted to start with a financial presentation to explain the position of the company and the state of the industry. BASSA, who up to this point refused point blank to accept that the company was in financial difficulty, stormed out saying that was not how they wanted to start and how dare BA patronise them.
Constructive? Nope!
So, what will 'force back to the table' achieve. Willie Walsh has BASSA where he wants it and the ability to cull some of the more militant staff.
Good luck.
Can't go bust? Kingfisher applied for a $400 million rescue load this morning and they were supposed to be one of the big expanders!
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Beerdrinker,
Because it's an awful lot of manure to stink the place out with and formatted by an idiot who did a desktop publishing course on the Tottenham Court Road.
If you want to have a go PM me your email addy and I'll fwd it to you.
Because it's an awful lot of manure to stink the place out with and formatted by an idiot who did a desktop publishing course on the Tottenham Court Road.
If you want to have a go PM me your email addy and I'll fwd it to you.
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There still seems to be no 'official' reason for the ballot yet?
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I will vote to strike not to bring down BA or to damage the already damaged pension scheme, but to protect myself and my future in this job, because believe me if this goes ahead i will not have a job anyway in 2-3 years. (For any doubters to this check out the 52 week clause for SURPLUS CREW..... that us in a couple of years.)
So to repeat none of us want to strike ( well apart from the diehards), but i see the determination and anger of the crews at the moment and am certain this will result in a large YES return on the ballot no matter what is stated here. Which i hope will force WW back round the table and if not well.....
So to repeat none of us want to strike ( well apart from the diehards), but i see the determination and anger of the crews at the moment and am certain this will result in a large YES return on the ballot no matter what is stated here. Which i hope will force WW back round the table and if not well.....
I do feel for you surrounded by pilots.
Seriously, I respect your opinion, but just a couple of things I wanted to point out.You think you won't have a job in 2-3 years with this imposition? What about a strike? I think I won't have a job in under 1 year if we strike.
The 52 week clause as such already exists. Anybody within the company can be redeployed if their job no longer exists, and put into careerlink for a year. The company haven't done that. They could, for argument's sake, have put EF CSDs in there, or Pursers, or made any role redundant. They didn't, and I respect them for that. This bs that is being put out that they want to shaft us is rubbish. They could have already done so, but they haven't.
You are right - no-one wants to strike. But voting because you think WW will back down is a HUGE mistake. He won't. He didn't last time. The Union walked away at the 11th hour with it's tail between it's legs. We took a huge hit on the pay deal (which wasn't even in the package!) and WW still got a Purser off the jumbo.
The Union walked out with nothing. The BASSA website had to close down because of the abuse. But people have short memories. Why on earth should this time be different? I reckon it could be alot worse.Everyone has the right to vote whichever way they feel fit. But I will vote No to save my job, and keep feeding my kids.
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Nutjob,
The problem is that when it was seen that there were to be changes to the Cabin Crew manning levels and cost savings required of differing levels from each department all of us could see the strike ballot coming back in February.
This is a direct attack on Lizanne Maloney and the hierarchy of BASSA. They have no other base to throw to the wolves, this time it will hit the Senior CSD's as well as the junior new joiner. They can never, ever accept that hence they were always going to find something to strike over and spent the past 9 months trying to spin it to the moderate membership.
The problem with any weapon is that if it is used too much it becomes blunt. Willie Walsh has been expecting this and maneuvering the company into such a position that any strike will be abhorrent to the public and indefensible in a court of law.
BASSA are treading on very, very unstable ground.
The problem is that when it was seen that there were to be changes to the Cabin Crew manning levels and cost savings required of differing levels from each department all of us could see the strike ballot coming back in February.
This is a direct attack on Lizanne Maloney and the hierarchy of BASSA. They have no other base to throw to the wolves, this time it will hit the Senior CSD's as well as the junior new joiner. They can never, ever accept that hence they were always going to find something to strike over and spent the past 9 months trying to spin it to the moderate membership.
The problem with any weapon is that if it is used too much it becomes blunt. Willie Walsh has been expecting this and maneuvering the company into such a position that any strike will be abhorrent to the public and indefensible in a court of law.
BASSA are treading on very, very unstable ground.
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BASSA
A couple of other questions for those brave enough to look beneath the shallow veneer of the BASSA party line:
(1) Although the ballot is private, is it independently operated or audited to ensure that the BASSA leaders can't do a Hamid Karzai? (Something I certainly wouldn't put past them).
(2) Does BASSA have some kind of constitution or other (legal or otherwise) framework that mandates elections after a set period. And has any of you checked to see if their "show of hands" at the earlier Raceday, to avoid being voted off until after the ballot, actually complies with any regulations (a quorum for example)? I mean wouldn't it urinate all over their strawberry patch if they were legally forced to hold elections now? Must surely be worth looking into. You pay the subs, you are entitled to have the rules followed.
Re: the AMICUS PDF, please try the link first, it may only be the homepage is down. IF you are unable to download a copy, please PM with an email address, as I can't see how PMs can be used to send attachments. (If they can, please PM me an tell me how!
)
(1) Although the ballot is private, is it independently operated or audited to ensure that the BASSA leaders can't do a Hamid Karzai? (Something I certainly wouldn't put past them).
(2) Does BASSA have some kind of constitution or other (legal or otherwise) framework that mandates elections after a set period. And has any of you checked to see if their "show of hands" at the earlier Raceday, to avoid being voted off until after the ballot, actually complies with any regulations (a quorum for example)? I mean wouldn't it urinate all over their strawberry patch if they were legally forced to hold elections now? Must surely be worth looking into. You pay the subs, you are entitled to have the rules followed.
Re: the AMICUS PDF, please try the link first, it may only be the homepage is down. IF you are unable to download a copy, please PM with an email address, as I can't see how PMs can be used to send attachments. (If they can, please PM me an tell me how!
)