British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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IheartMBT
I have worked with your so called 'Gap Year Students' flying UK charter. We have a high turnover of crew, whilst at the same time retaining some long term crew. We have a very good balance which seems to work. The new crew, although obviously lacking practicle experience, are enthusiastic and very knowledgable.
We have had several incidents as a company over the last 12 years I have worked here, and never have I heard of new crew not being able to handle themselves.
I infact was onboard for one event where we had a heart attack victim.The crew performed CPR for 30 mins while enroute to our diversion. We were lucky enough to have an A+E doctor onboard, who later said that "working with your crew was like working with a professional crash team". Now a little overboard probably, but it certainly made me feel very proud to work with such great crew.
I have worked with your so called 'Gap Year Students' flying UK charter. We have a high turnover of crew, whilst at the same time retaining some long term crew. We have a very good balance which seems to work. The new crew, although obviously lacking practicle experience, are enthusiastic and very knowledgable.
We have had several incidents as a company over the last 12 years I have worked here, and never have I heard of new crew not being able to handle themselves.
I infact was onboard for one event where we had a heart attack victim.The crew performed CPR for 30 mins while enroute to our diversion. We were lucky enough to have an A+E doctor onboard, who later said that "working with your crew was like working with a professional crash team". Now a little overboard probably, but it certainly made me feel very proud to work with such great crew.
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IHeart
There are all sorts of problems trying to argue for keeping 'experienced' crew:
- Other airlines achieve equivalent safety records with higher turnover of crews,
- Most of our experienced crew have never experienced a fire, or used the defib, or evacuated an aircraft.
- I've seen some good and some dire performances in SEP from experienced as well as inexperienced crew. (And no repeat if things were done wrong/ badly, but that's another story)
- The CAA mandate what levels are experience are needed on board, and we would achieve or exceed those on new fleet.
- I've personally had a pax die on my flight and the experienced CSD was an absolute shambles. The calmest individual was a young girl who had come from Monarch airlines. I would have quite happily swopped her for the CSD as SCCM.
- Look at any business and ask them to rate the performance of employees in various experience brackets - you'll find all sorts of problems associated with each, including the old hands.
- Gatwick (once again) are the template which LHR will be modelled on. No-one outside Bassa seriously considers the crew there to be incapable of offering BA standard service or safety.
The Unite QC argued for an injunction on the basis of inadequate safety for the crew and passengers, yet the CAA mandate minimum manning levels and Gatwick (and most other airlines) already operate at that level, so how did they expect to win that argument?
There are all sorts of problems trying to argue for keeping 'experienced' crew:
- Other airlines achieve equivalent safety records with higher turnover of crews,
- Most of our experienced crew have never experienced a fire, or used the defib, or evacuated an aircraft.
- I've seen some good and some dire performances in SEP from experienced as well as inexperienced crew. (And no repeat if things were done wrong/ badly, but that's another story)
- The CAA mandate what levels are experience are needed on board, and we would achieve or exceed those on new fleet.
- I've personally had a pax die on my flight and the experienced CSD was an absolute shambles. The calmest individual was a young girl who had come from Monarch airlines. I would have quite happily swopped her for the CSD as SCCM.
- Look at any business and ask them to rate the performance of employees in various experience brackets - you'll find all sorts of problems associated with each, including the old hands.
- Gatwick (once again) are the template which LHR will be modelled on. No-one outside Bassa seriously considers the crew there to be incapable of offering BA standard service or safety.
The Unite QC argued for an injunction on the basis of inadequate safety for the crew and passengers, yet the CAA mandate minimum manning levels and Gatwick (and most other airlines) already operate at that level, so how did they expect to win that argument?
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What an awful way to spend your gap year anyway! - Spent mine having far more fun and free time than I ever did as crew!
I really don't think it is something you should worry about. Turn over of crew at LGW is a lot higher than at LHR yes, but a vast majority of the crew there, especially the seniors, have been around for a long time. Some a long, long, long time!
IHMBT - also not sure what you are referring to RE the LRB not being a good example about LGW - was it not LHR where the incident I think you are hinting at took place???
I really don't think it is something you should worry about. Turn over of crew at LGW is a lot higher than at LHR yes, but a vast majority of the crew there, especially the seniors, have been around for a long time. Some a long, long, long time!
IHMBT - also not sure what you are referring to RE the LRB not being a good example about LGW - was it not LHR where the incident I think you are hinting at took place???
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There`s a rumour doing the rounds that bassa reps are going around saying that if they get a yes vote and win on the 1st feb then for every sector operated crew will get £200 back dated pay.So my sums reckon
approx 20 sectors x 200 = £ 4000 each
£4000 x 14000 = £56 million pounds.
I hope there is not a shred of truth in this.Otherwise rather than saving any money they will have awarded themselves a huge payrise and driven a 6inch nail in BA`s coffin.You can see why Mr Walsh has to win this one no matter what the cost !
approx 20 sectors x 200 = £ 4000 each
£4000 x 14000 = £56 million pounds.
I hope there is not a shred of truth in this.Otherwise rather than saving any money they will have awarded themselves a huge payrise and driven a 6inch nail in BA`s coffin.You can see why Mr Walsh has to win this one no matter what the cost !
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New fleet to be crewed by "gap year students"...
The assertion that New Fleet will be crewed by “gap year students” is wholly insulting and patronising to cabin crew in every other airline in the UK. WW has stated that the New Fleet salary will be market rate + 10% which makes it a good deal in the current economic climate. What other UK airline offers better terms and conditions for current new joiners? Certainly not Virgin who continually receive praise for their levels of customer service and who have no problem in attracting high calibre staff. As is well known, they also have an excellent safety record and a healthy mix of experience onboard. I pick Virgin as one example of how it can be done, of course there are many other airlines who also fulfill this criteria while paying their cabin crew market competitive salaries. There are many (and will be more) experienced unemployed cabin crew currently out there who would quite rightly jump at the opportunity to join New Fleet. To suggest otherwise is fantasy.
The experience card is a poor one to play. In my time at BA I have witnessed some excellent performances at SEP and also some fairly shocking examples by experienced crew (some who joined BA about the time I was being enrolled at nursery!) That said, in every airline you will have the good and the not so good and BA is not immune to the occasional cock up, that is after all one of the reasons why we do SEP each year. To suggest that a 30 year cabin crew member is superior in this regard to a new joiner who’s enthusiasm and dedication their role is evident, is to be arrogant in the extreme and I suspect based more upon perception rather than reality.
Yes, the cabin crew profiles at LGW, Virgin and most other UK airlines are considerably younger than LHR WW but is there really much benefit from experience after say 5 years? Can a direct link be made to the quality of customer service and SEP knowledge demonstrated by a cabin crew member as their tenure extends beyond a few years? I suspect not. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, basic medical and SEP training can be completed in a matter of weeks. Customer service skills do not take long to learn and just as important as experience is an enthusiasm and passion for the job, something that I suspect many BA LHR crew (unfortunately) lost long ago.
The experience card is a poor one to play. In my time at BA I have witnessed some excellent performances at SEP and also some fairly shocking examples by experienced crew (some who joined BA about the time I was being enrolled at nursery!) That said, in every airline you will have the good and the not so good and BA is not immune to the occasional cock up, that is after all one of the reasons why we do SEP each year. To suggest that a 30 year cabin crew member is superior in this regard to a new joiner who’s enthusiasm and dedication their role is evident, is to be arrogant in the extreme and I suspect based more upon perception rather than reality.
Yes, the cabin crew profiles at LGW, Virgin and most other UK airlines are considerably younger than LHR WW but is there really much benefit from experience after say 5 years? Can a direct link be made to the quality of customer service and SEP knowledge demonstrated by a cabin crew member as their tenure extends beyond a few years? I suspect not. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, basic medical and SEP training can be completed in a matter of weeks. Customer service skills do not take long to learn and just as important as experience is an enthusiasm and passion for the job, something that I suspect many BA LHR crew (unfortunately) lost long ago.
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We have all gone off on another tangent (safety?).
If someone could say what the question on the ballot form is then we could all debate that.
I get the impression that the crew are being asked to strike - no one seems to be able to say what they are being asked to strike for.
No one seems to have any idea what will solve the strike.
Bassa don't even appear to be offering BA a way out, BA do not have to take it, and it is certainly not BA's job to propose one now.
I think Bassa still hope, as they seem to have done for many months, that the problem will just go away.
BA have the strongest management they have had for years and they are dealing from an incredibly strong position in the current financial climate.
Start negotiating, Bassa reps, as that is what you were voted in to do.
You are going to have to do it at some point in the future whichever way the ballot goes.
If someone could say what the question on the ballot form is then we could all debate that.
I get the impression that the crew are being asked to strike - no one seems to be able to say what they are being asked to strike for.
No one seems to have any idea what will solve the strike.
Bassa don't even appear to be offering BA a way out, BA do not have to take it, and it is certainly not BA's job to propose one now.
I think Bassa still hope, as they seem to have done for many months, that the problem will just go away.
BA have the strongest management they have had for years and they are dealing from an incredibly strong position in the current financial climate.
Start negotiating, Bassa reps, as that is what you were voted in to do.
You are going to have to do it at some point in the future whichever way the ballot goes.
Last edited by finncapt; 11th Nov 2009 at 12:41. Reason: Didn't sound right
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IloveMBT et al
I think you are addressing your safety related questions to the wrong audience. Surely the people whose perceptions matter are passengers. If passengers feel safe on planes crewed by relatively inexperienced and cheaper staff, then that is all that matters in commercial terms. There is every indication that passengers feel comfortable being crewed (both flight and cabin) by relatively inexperienced personnel. I suspect Ryanair's cabin crew are significantly less experienced on average than BA's. It is also well known that Ryanair is happy to hire inexperienced First Officers. As an airline thay carry more passengers than BA, which is a pretty good indicator of passengers' safety perspective I would suggest.
A related point to consider is that of perceived equipment safety. Rightly or wrongly, passengers equate newer aircraft with safer aircraft, and the likes of Ryanair have significantly younger fleets than BA. This point is relevant, given that a key reason for BA looking to restructure its staff costs is to free up funds to modernise its fleet.
I'm afraid the "we're worth paying because we're so much safer" just does not fly (pardon the pun). Passengers clearly have no worries about getting on planes crewed by cheaper/younger/less experienced personnel, and the safety stats do not suggest there is any difference between the full service and LoCos.
A related point to consider is that of perceived equipment safety. Rightly or wrongly, passengers equate newer aircraft with safer aircraft, and the likes of Ryanair have significantly younger fleets than BA. This point is relevant, given that a key reason for BA looking to restructure its staff costs is to free up funds to modernise its fleet.
I'm afraid the "we're worth paying because we're so much safer" just does not fly (pardon the pun). Passengers clearly have no worries about getting on planes crewed by cheaper/younger/less experienced personnel, and the safety stats do not suggest there is any difference between the full service and LoCos.
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If we could let the safety tangent rest now please?
5 more pages of he says she says will add little of relevance.
Thank you.
PS: in clearspeak - no more experience vs safety posts
5 more pages of he says she says will add little of relevance.
Thank you.
PS: in clearspeak - no more experience vs safety posts
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If jayPee28bpr is correct then maybe BA could save lots more money by reducing the pay of ALL of its staff to "market rate + 10%"
(at least that way we can see we are all being treated equally poorly!!)
BA's own recent figures state that average cost per staff member is £53000.
It has 175 staff per aircraft.....currently on an A319 only 4 of those are the cabin crew.
(how does that stack up to EJ et al? )
As a csd with 31 years invested in this once well run company, my basic is £34500.
This year I have often been non-op'd (up to 50% of available working days in some months) and so the variable amounts in some months have been between £200 - £300. Hardly the laughable £70k figures bandied about on this site and the press.
The pay current crew are on was AGREED by BA .
Some people are obviously earning a great deal at the expence of the many front line staff in the cabin, on the ground, who are out there doing the best they can day in day out.
Blaming all BA's woes on BASSA and cabin crew is completely barmy.
We would all be happy if the £600million+ or so had not been wasted on fines this past year......with possibly more to come.
How about fines = NIL bonus to all Snr Mgmt/board with them culpable for fines with money to be recovered from them personally if a case is found against them?
Now that would maybe drive some performance from them
(at least that way we can see we are all being treated equally poorly!!)
BA's own recent figures state that average cost per staff member is £53000.
It has 175 staff per aircraft.....currently on an A319 only 4 of those are the cabin crew.
(how does that stack up to EJ et al? )
As a csd with 31 years invested in this once well run company, my basic is £34500.
This year I have often been non-op'd (up to 50% of available working days in some months) and so the variable amounts in some months have been between £200 - £300. Hardly the laughable £70k figures bandied about on this site and the press.
The pay current crew are on was AGREED by BA .
Some people are obviously earning a great deal at the expence of the many front line staff in the cabin, on the ground, who are out there doing the best they can day in day out.
Blaming all BA's woes on BASSA and cabin crew is completely barmy.
We would all be happy if the £600million+ or so had not been wasted on fines this past year......with possibly more to come.
How about fines = NIL bonus to all Snr Mgmt/board with them culpable for fines with money to be recovered from them personally if a case is found against them?
Now that would maybe drive some performance from them
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Flynspanner
Costs per staf member aren't just made up of the persons salary. Unit cost (the one BA in concerned with) is made up of several items including salary, pension contributions (BA pay appox 4-5 times members contributions in NAPS!!) and uniform to name but a few.
p.s. ask BASSA what the top earner for cabin crew grossed last year. They won't be able to tell you their name but they will be able to tell you the amount they earned. They have the info in the same way BALPA do for pilots...or perhaps they might choose to not tell you if it is a BASSA rep!
Costs per staf member aren't just made up of the persons salary. Unit cost (the one BA in concerned with) is made up of several items including salary, pension contributions (BA pay appox 4-5 times members contributions in NAPS!!) and uniform to name but a few.
p.s. ask BASSA what the top earner for cabin crew grossed last year. They won't be able to tell you their name but they will be able to tell you the amount they earned. They have the info in the same way BALPA do for pilots...or perhaps they might choose to not tell you if it is a BASSA rep!
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Oh Gawd, not the ruddy fine issue -again. It may well be £600 million ish in fines, but BA earned in the region of an extra £1 Billion on the back of of the 'naughtiness' - so the argument falls at that hurdle.
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Flyinspanner
I agree with most of what you say and one particular sentence, I think, sums up the problem.
"Blaming all BA's woes on BASSA and cabin crew is completely barmy".
This is not what most of the airline thinks but is what Bassa are peddling.
When Bassa realises this and start to negotiate we may be able to move forward.
I agree with most of what you say and one particular sentence, I think, sums up the problem.
"Blaming all BA's woes on BASSA and cabin crew is completely barmy".
This is not what most of the airline thinks but is what Bassa are peddling.
When Bassa realises this and start to negotiate we may be able to move forward.
"How about industrial action = NIL pay for cabin crew with them culpable for costs with money to be recovered from them personally if a case is found against them?
Now that would maybe drive some performance from them"
Yes, wouldn't it just!
Now that would maybe drive some performance from them"
Yes, wouldn't it just!
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The pay current crew are on was AGREED by BA
Blaming all BA's woes on BASSA and cabin crew is completely barmy
currently on an A319 only 4 of those are the cabin crew
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If jayPee28bpr is correct then maybe BA could save lots more money by reducing the pay of ALL of its staff to "market rate + 10%"
BA's own recent figures state that average cost per staff member is £53000.
It has 175 staff per aircraft.....currently on an A319 only 4 of those are the cabin crew.
(how does that stack up to EJ et al? )
(how does that stack up to EJ et al? )
As a csd with 31 years invested in this once well run company, my basic is £34500.
The pay current crew are on was AGREED by BA .
Some people are obviously earning a great deal at the expence of the many front line staff in the cabin, on the ground, who are out there doing the best they can day in day out.
Blaming all BA's woes on BASSA and cabin crew is completely barmy.
We would all be happy if the £600million+ or so had not been wasted on fines this past year......with possibly more to come.
How about fines = NIL bonus to all Snr Mgmt/board with them culpable for fines with money to be recovered from them personally if a case is found against them?
Now that would maybe drive some performance from them