British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[deeceethree]

ottergirl,

..... frightened is what you get when you are a single parent paying a mortgage that was determined by what you were earning 3 years ago!

I'm sure we all understand 'frightened', but if that is your emotional state, then don't you think that it is likely the fault of BASSA for causing it? BASSA's actions (or more accurately, inaction) has precipitated the escalating goings-on here. The 'train-set' belongs to BA and it will find others to 'play' with if BASSA continues dicking about!

.... I think my family deserve that I keep the roof over their heads while they finish their state school education

Your family might expect that, but your employer doesn't owe you your living. If you feel you family are so deserving then you are playing fast and loose with their expectations, aren't you?

[Fume Event]

Fantastic Injunction Result

Far from being a draw, the Injunction result was a great victory and for the following reasons which all of you have overlooked so far.

1.If BA's imposition had of been halted, it would have weakened BASSA's case for a strike. PPRUNER's and the public would say: "what are you going on strike for, you have got what you want?"

2. If BA had of won their case, the public would have been against us as we would be seen as having already lost and the strike merely viewed as being a great hissy fit.

Now Willie Walsh is in the worst case scenario of both worlds. BA may lose the High Court action in February and before that, have had a costly strike running into hundred of millions of Pounds.

The judges ruling for the injunction was a crafty move; it puts off a decision until after the strike. If BA's cabin crew are successful, the High Court may just rubber stamp the outcome and BA will be liable for millions in compensation to the crew who suffered the imposition.

No doubt most of you here will put the best possible gloss on this outcome, but in fact it is a personal disaster for Walsh. He should resign now as his position is completely untenable.

YouTube - Das Bunker.....

[wobble2plank]

frightened is what you get when you are a single parent paying a mortgage that was determined by what you were earning 3 years ago!

Irrespective of single parent or not, state education or private with the minority of BASSA tub thumpers advocating that they would like to see the company fail purely out of spite and the wish to rid BA of Willie Walsh puts us ALL in this position.

We all have bills to pay, mortgages to keep ticking over and, many of us, children to care for hence the wish on this thread to determine EXACTLY what it is BASSA are throwing a hissy fit over.

What, exactly, is the contractual change that the CC are facing? Always remember that the number of crew on any aircraft above and beyond the minimum as set by the CAA is the company's business and tempered by agreement NOT contractual binding.

So, what are the contract changes? Why will all crew be losing a massive amount of money? Don't throw in projected losses due to the fact that in the last case that went to the courts over projected future earnings the case was dismissed in favour of BA and a substantial damages claim ensued!

[Carnage Matey!]

Back again Mr Perfect/Stall Pusher/Poof in Boots? I do have to hand it to you, you're nothing if not persistent in your attempts to describe night as day and black as white! In response:

1) I'm sure BASSA we're really going to the High Court in order to have their injunction rejected so as to provide a stronger strike mandate. Yep, thats the reason they spent a six figure sum on lawyers. Through your numerous alter egos you've made it quite clear that you don't think crew should listen to Pprune or public opinion, so it's heartening to see your union has spent so much money on an elaborate public relations strategy in which a High Court defeat is to be valued!

2) The public are already against you, as the numerous comments on the BBC/Telegraph/Sky News/Daily Mail websites show. I know you try to spam them all with pro-crew comments denying CSDs earn £70K but you can't stem the flood (even if you do think it's because they all have small equipment, were once turned down by cabin crew or have serious psychological issues). The strike is a great big hissy fit, and I notice more and more crew are questioning the value of a CSD and the impact of the changes, leaving the die-hards to shout them down with cries that they must resist imposition or it'll be the end of the union. One can't help but get the feeling that many of the moderates wish exactly that.

Far from having the worst of both worlds, Walsh is in a very happy place right now. He's seen off your injunction, he knows the court won't even talk about the new fleet and he knows that BASSA are trying to run a strike when 7000 crew have registered for part-time, promotion, transfers or VR and there is a sizeable element who simply don't want their christmas disrupted. As soon as he's sacked the 'leadership', and I use that term loosely, element of BASSA for their offensive behaviour towards another union rep you'll be a rudderless ship, drifting aimlessly towards aimless industrial action that will collapse in short order. Then BA will reward him with lots of shares and the City will reward him by pumping up that share price. A happy place indeed.

[wobble2plank]

I am confounded by the logic?

If BA's imposition had of been halted, it would have weakened BASSA's case for a strike. PPRUNER's and the public would say: "what are you going on strike for, you have got what you want?"

So, BASSA went to court to impose an injunction and failed therefore winning? No one seems to be too sure about what BASSA are striking over anyway and I think the loss of 1 or 2 crew per aircraft is not seen by anyone except BASSA as particular hardship.

If BA had of won their case, the public would have been against us as we would be seen as having already lost and the strike merely viewed as being a great hissy fit.

Even better! Public opinion IS against a strike. We are in the middle of the deepest recession since the 1930's. People are losing work all over the country. Unemployment historically lags recession by 6-9 months and you throw a strike? How fabulously popular you will be with the public! The problem is that, unlike the Postal Strike, which still wasn't hugely popular, is that there are many, many other full service airlines doing the same job as BA with half the cost base. Difficult to justify at the best of times.

Now Willie Walsh is in the worst case scenario of both worlds. BA may lose the High Court action in February and before that, have had a costly strike running into hundred of millions of Pounds.

Which Willie Walsh has stated will be added to the IfCE savings budget. Foot, aim, shoot.

No doubt most of you here will put the best possible gloss on this outcome, but in fact it is a personal disaster for Walsh. He should resign now as his position is completely untenable.

Why is his position untenable? Please explain why, with the backing of the Board, the backing of the City and the backing of the shareholders his position is untenable?

The BASSA spin machine must be just about fit to burn its bearings out.

I think this little video describes the 'concentrated factual' level of misunderstanding within the BASSA hierarchy at the moment!

YouTube - Eddie Izzard- Death Star Canteen

[fly12345]

So much common sense and so little exposure, some of the posts on this site should be published on CF.

[Andyismyname]

So I assume that if BA had wanted to put an extra crew member on each of its flights, that would have been illegal because it was against each cabin crew members contract?

Thoughts BASSA people?

[ottergirl]

you are playing fast and loose with their expectations

more assumptions deeceethree, I am not a member of Bassa nor have I said I support IR.

Sorry to hear that your pay has reduced during the last few years, why is that?

Because the IFCE management failed to make any provision for the reduction of the Boeing 757, 767 fleet (inspite of spending many man hours with various special projects people thinking about it) and the Union wasn't particularly bothered if the Eurofleet CSD's sat at home either! The current proposals will not impact on my salary but potentially the new fleet will. As the last Boeing a/c leaves the shorthaul network the remaining Eurofleet CSD's will be vulnerable and Bill Francis has said there will be no more transfers after this round.

If the monthly payment is negotiated effectively, how would you NOT be able to pay your mortgage, bills, with this deal?

Because the offered monthly payment is based on current earnings which are substantially lower than previous years.

a 2.6% paycut, a pay and increment freeze for 2 years, etc??

Compared to what we've already lost, 2.6% would be preferable. My P60 is likely to be around 10% less than last years.

minority of BASSA tub thumpers

All my previous post was designed to do was remind you that what you were discussing so flippantly was actually the lives of some quite ordinary people. Not flat cap militants, not tub thumpers but mostly just the girls and guys that you (hopefully) sit drinking in the bar with down-route. Mostly we care about our livelihoods, our company, our customers and actually don't care too much about delivering the service one down. Enough!

[IYCSWICSWICW]

Christmas Holiday

I am shocked at the innapropriate use of the Iwo Jima image on the BASSA homepage. A disgrace.

[wobble2plank]

Ottergirl

All my previous post was designed to do was remind you that what you were discussing so flippantly was actually the lives of some quite ordinary people. Not flat cap militants, not tub thumpers but mostly just the girls and guys that you (hopefully) sit drinking in the bar with down-route. Mostly we care about our livelihoods, our company, our customers and actually don't care too much about delivering the service one down. Enough!

All my post described, if you read it carefully enough, is that the noise about making BA fail comes from a very small minority of Crew. In fact, if you read through the majority of posts on this thread, mine included, I think you will find that 99% of the 'non bassa' posters are mainly aghast at the poor representation your Union has given you and the loud vocal rhetoric spouted by a militant few.

We are all concerned that in a few years time we will have a company to fly for. Change IS needed.

[deeceethree]

BA may lose the High Court action in February and before that, have had a costly strike running into hundred of millions of Pounds.

What makes you think you will be allowed to strike, if the alleged reason for your strike is also the subject of a pending court date?

Oh, and BASSA may lose in court, too. I know which result my money is on.

[overstress]

What if WW was confident that even if there was to be a strike,it would probably only last a day and a half?

The half day is to allow time for the crew text-message-grapevine to pass the news of the sackings from the first day.

I say this not to scaremonger but to present a very likely scenario.

As the BASSA 100% brigade are fond of telling us, time will tell

[Weather Map]

I realy can't understand why the 9000 or so cabin crew who are on the new contract don't have more of a voice within BASSA.They ARE the majority now.Does anyone know if the crew on the new contract (less salary) have to pay the same price to the union as the crew who are on the old contract.Seems a bit of a rip off if they do.

[draglift]

I wsn't in BA at that time but back in the late 1970s when BA replaced the Trident (3 pilots) with the Boeing 737 (2 pilots) did the pilots just accept it or did BALPA get very excited and try to induce the pilots to take industrial action over it? Were pilots laid off about this time?

[Fume Event]

Of course Carnage, you are competely wrong in your logic and reasoning. It will be a great pleasure to see you eat your words in due course.

[whattimedoweland]

Childishness and foul language not welcome.
The Mods

[1stClass]

I can't believe I actually fly with people so selfish and delusional as those that would rather see BA go down.

I'm sorry but I would much rather keep my job to fund the roof over my head and give my children a stable life, than fight over losing a crew member ect. I think nothing has made me more positive to vote NO than hearing this rubbish.

To all those who are not crew, please believe me when I say we are not all this self-centered and hurtful. Most of us have been put in this job because we actually care. The ones who want to see BA go under are a minority. It would ruin so many people for this to happen.

All I can say is 'shocking'. I'm shocked that humans can be so selfish

[travelandtrouble]

Right with you 1stClass.

There have been many comments around how a YES vote would send a message to BA.

But a good NO vote (even if not the majority) would send an equally strong message to BASSA/Unite.

This is a great opportunity for those crew who want to protect their livelihoods to send that message.

To all the naysayers,

Getting round the table again would be a very well respected move. By doing so you can have some influence over the changes that are coming.

And they are coming - no matter how angry you get or how much you rattle your gilded cage.

How often have you heard the phrase "don't bite the hand that feeds you".

BASSA have done exactly that but sadly, its fast becoming clear that they have bitten off more than they can chew.

Its time to accept that the glory days are over, guys. But you still have the chance to have a say - don't throw that away because you believe all the hype.

There will be no payback in February. Even if you win the case, where do you think the money will come from? Its the bigest of the empty promises your union are making you.

Very sad indeed that you can't be represented by people like you.

Once you strike its game over, possibly for everyone.

[KitKat747]

To answer the off topic question about surplus pilots. Tridents/737

In the early 80's there were surplus pilots, some of the f/o's who had been flying as pilots for a number of year (all male as BA did not have any female pilots then) were re-deployed as cabin crew for a couple of years until pilots were needed again. They were very pleased to be flying again in any capacity.

[dns]

1st class,

The fact that the ballot is over a fairly trivial issue is irrelevant, it's the fact that it's an imposed change.

Are your kids going to have a stable life if BA impose the planned changes to the other agreements, taking away your fixed rosters and allowances...

How will your kids have stability in their life if their mum (or dad, sorry not sure) is on permanent standby due to another BA imposition?

Always remember that the number of crew on any aircraft above and beyond the minimum as set by the CAA is the company's business and tempered by agreement NOT contractual binding.

Another little gem from the all knowing wobble2plank... Would the case be going to court if they weren't contractual? How the hell would you know something that the top level lawyers at UNITE don't?!