Winco

sm,

Whilst you and some of your friends may have seen some evidence of change, I haven't, none of my friends have and more importantly, NONE OF THE PUBLIC HAS!

Read the comments of Bye above. He's an ordinary chap, who has given his money and frankly, doesn't know what is going on with the aircraft, just like the rest of us! It's all right for you to bang on about things are changing, but if they are, then why isn't the great TVOC press office machine informing us of the changes? Probably because there is no real press office.

And if you and Bubbles are so involved over there, arn't you just a little miffed that you have been 'black-balled' by the 'we know better than you' crowd over there?

The problem is that the project may well need another £1.2 million. It might need £10 million, it might not NEED anything for all we know, but because there is this culture of not accepting critisism, not answering questions, and burrying their heads in the sand, TVOC have lost the respect, trust and confidence of the British Public. I would therefore strongly suggest that Pleming stands aside and lets someone else take control who is more willing to give us accurate, up-to-date information on the project and where it stands.

andrewmcharlton

I second that Winco.

Things may have changed, but too little too late.

The common theme to what I have rattled on about for 2 years and I think everyone is the same, is transparency.

If you try to read the press releases, apart from only coming in the cry wolf variety, you can't work out what they need by when and why. It is never the same twice. Nobody but the inner sanctum has a clue what is really going on. This is not a private company either that can do as they please; this is a trust fund spending tax payers money on a national heritage project.

In the words of Cromwell and Amery "You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

Cypherus

Three years back and beyond members and public alike were asking TVOC the same questions regarding their buiness planning for 558 and recieved the same stoic silence on the matter, TVOC took their need too see the aircraft back in the air and begged all to stump up willingly still without the help of a credible information stream resulting in 558 operating too great acclaim last season, but for those of us that asked direct questions and would not take silence as an answer there were threats and offers of expulsion.

So here we are again, TVOC with it's hand out and redundancy notices issued, the public refusing too hand over any more cash until noticible changes are made too the management structure and certain 'Names' being written up for alledged miss misconduct and poor judgement.

Yes the man should resign, and yes I am being as obvious about who as I can, if alone for poor performance, yes the TVOC management structure should be overhauled, but not least of the items on the wish list is honesty with the supporters of this project, open, transparent publication of details on were they are proposing too take the Vulcans future, it is what the public gave them a lot of money too do, so far it,s the one thing that they have not actually done.

Tim McLelland

Enough already. Seems that you can't discuss anything intelligently on here so I may as well not bother - oh and please feel free to cut and paste that line and add a smiley face if it makes anyone feel better - I really couldn't care less.

Saracen I don't care how creative your use of italics, fonts or colour is, you can blither-on as much as you like. I haven't seen any evidence of anything having changed, neither has anyone else, simple as that. You say differently and that's your prerogative. End of story.

Bubbles, I don't really give a stuff what your father thinks, but thanks for sharing that with us. I won't hold my breath waiting for your father's alternative plan of action.

I've been as diplomatic as I can be but it falls on deaf ears. The basic situation is that I (along with heaven-knows how many other people) think this saga is a complete joke and that claims that anything is improving just sound stupid. It's clear to everyone that nothing is going to change while the same people are running the project. It's also clear that nobody has even the slightest intention of making any effort to change things - people would rather simply argue endlessly on here and every other forum about nothing in particular, rather than make any attempt to change things.

This is a waste of my time. I don't appreciate writing posts only to have them taken-off when particular Moderators don't think they suit their own views. That's not moderation, it's amateur censorship.

I'll leave you to it - I really have got better things to do. Feel free to add the suitably sarcastic or repetitive replies but if they're directed at me then I suggest you don't bother, as I won't be reading them.

andrewmcharlton

Tim,

Whilst I sympathise with much of what you're saying you are now so blinkered it is out of order.

You have made your point eloquently previously but it's turning into a rant and starting to be directed at individuals. They have a different view to yours. That doesn't make them inaccuracurate or incorrect. Views are all subjective and whilst i don't always agree with what everyone says, as they say in a democracy, I will defend their right to say it.

Have a walk around the block and calm it down a tad and don't get so hot under the collar mate.

Exrigger

I can still see that on the 6th March the announcement will be similar to the one that Dr P made at the roll out, when he stated that redundancies had been handed out and then produced the cheque for I believe was for £500, 000 and turned to the guys and gals that were in tears at what they understood as the end of the line and he told them they and the project had been saved so back to work.

Trouble is if this does turn out to be the case and we get through another season, you just know that we will be back going through the same angst at the end of this year.

I agree with most of SM and Bubbles comments, changes are apparently happening, some I have seen for my own eyes and has caused me to start to assist in the pledge initiatives where I can, but to completely change what has happened over the previous years and avoid the same mistakes is not going to happen in the next three weeks, in fact it probably won,t change in the next 6 months. As has been said before some of those responsible for the problems are still in place throughout the organisation, making the same errors and talking the same talk as if they are deaf to what is going on around them.

saracenman

TM - that's more like; there's a gulf of difference between saying that you haven't seen any improvement and stating that no-one has. that's the only thing that irritated me, and i appreciate that my use of bold, italics and bright colours may have been a touch over-zealous!

Bye - i genuinely feel for you, and i do appreciate how and why you feel the way that you do. As both Cypherus and Exrigger intimate, we have all suffered exactly the same for an inordinately long time; it really was bewildering as to why the TVOC management found it so difficult to understand that communication should be a two-way street, rather than simply passing the begging-bowl around when they were in Queer Street.

i think all will recall the complete and ominous silence for seven wees after first flight in October 2007 - the time when exactly the opposite should've been true. mass jumping up and down, screaming and shouting, and other activities to encourage the release of more information achieved little more than earning the label of "moaners" and "whingers"

this was pretty much the status quo right throughout the summer too (bizarrely!) but it has only really been since October last that changes have been seen by those of us 'at the coal face' so to speak. I'm certain that there are many of hundreds/thousands that are not as close to the project as we are who, given the out-of-season time of year, hear and see very little of 558 or matters-TVOC.

this is not an excuse by any means - the flow of information should be better still, but i really can assure you that there is a distinct change of attitude toward we supporters. it has taken far too long admittedly, but at last it is beginning to be how it should've been months ago.

i still harbour concerns about Dr. P's own effectiveness, but those beneath him are at last showing their true abilities. As I've previously stated, i don't expect everyone to simply believe everything that i say, and I'm not even surprised that there are those that have seen no changes at all, but steps are being taken as we speak - they may be small, but they are vital steps long overdue!

"Every journey begins with a single step"

sm

edit:
Exrigger, from my own conversations with Michael Trotter, i know that there are several planned long-term 'schemes' which will (as long as we can get past this current hurdle) put 558 in a much better situation this time next year.

a couple of these involve me directly and i know how determined Michael is to see them through. one of these is directly connected with the education aspect, to which he is completely committed, and is frankly long overdue.

no guarantees of course, but it's a 100% improvement over this time last year!

sm

Exrigger

SM, this is the problem I have, in that everything is going on as if it is a given that once again on the 6th March it will be announced that the project is saved again, and what is more of a concern is once again this is playing with peoples livelyhoods, emotions, trust and passion (not forgetting financially).

If the project is dead if this target money is not raised, which with three weeks to go on just passion and determination alone and only £276, 000 raised to date by the club and supporters, which was gained over a longer period than those 3 weeks left, it does not realistically look feasable to raise £500,000, unless as I have said the top people allready know that the money will be there by the 6th with yet another saviour allready known to top up the pledge shortfall, this is not clever or fair.

saracenman

of course i take your point Exrigger, but what would you have them do instead?

I'd personally rather know that plans are in place for IF we do survive, rather than know that those managers and policy-makers have given up already, and are doing nothing more than sitting on their hands whilst we pay their salaries!

how would it look if the TVOC engineer accompanying/chauffeuring the Scramble lads next week simply said, "forget it lads, I've got no job in 3 weeks time anyway!" and left them to it?

sm

Exrigger

Fair point SM and I accept that. We will have to hope and wait and see who the rabbit is with the big cheque on the 6th will be when they are pulled out of the hat. If this is the way it has to work, then fine as long as those who have worked long and hard thus far are still in a job with the only flying Vulcan back where it belongs and I amongst thousands of others fervently hope it to be and will continue to do what I can still, but this is just me being negative etc etc ad naseum

Vulcan 903

I think the post from "Bye" has some questions that need to be answered from TVOC/VTTS. A good post Bye, thanks for takingthe time to enter this thread.

Anyway look what I have just found!

YouTube - Save Our Vulcan

Opssys

I have avoided becoming involved in this thread because it was bound to generate heightened emotions (including, no make that, especially mine).
Like Bye I have done what I can as a member of the public and even as a somewhat idle blogger:

However it does look as if Vulcan to the Sky Trust want us to belleve that the Fat Lady is preparing her song:
Press Release - 13 February 2009
and here lies the rub - I want a new Generation to see the Vulcan Fly - But I have become very negative as regarda the TVOC and the Trust and that is not a situation even this hardened cynic finds pleasant:
Are they once again crying Wolf? Will and another cheque pop out the hat? Is Everyone being made Redundant?

Living on the margin is no fun (been there, am there), but these people have turned it into an performance art and without transparency on costs and income, the constant cry of we need the money begins to sound like a 419 Scam rather than a registered charity .

airsound

For PPRuNers who want to hear from Dr Pleming, may I remind you that I have the text of a briefing he gave to the media at a conference at the Royal Aeronautical Society on 11 Feb - the same day the multi-signature letter appeared in the Telegraph. His briefing is about 1500 words long, so I’m inclined not to post it on the thread in full. But I’m happy to email it to anyone who PMs me. Several people have done so already. Dr Pleming also took questions afterwards - but sad to say, the media turnout was not great, and there wasn’t as much national coverage as we’d hoped.

Also on the same day, we had had high hopes of appearances on ‘Today’ (Radio 4), and ‘Breakfast’ (BBC1), but in the event, neither materialised. That’s live media for you. We were also due on FiveLive’s ‘Breakfast’ - but that fell down when a BBC car failed to materialise, and by the time that was sorted out, we’d fallen off the end of the programme. These things happen.

As far as getting Dr Pleming on this thread again is concerned, I think we can forget it. Does anyone suppose that someone who is so scurrilously vilified is likely to dignify his detractors with a reply? I think not. Does no one realise how personally hurtful these anonymous, cowardly barbs are? I have even heard from Mrs Pleming. She tells me she’s saddened that a few detractors are so infantile that they have resorted to name calling and telling lies. She also believes that the personal nature of the abuse has actually hindered her husband’s recovery from his recent serious illness.

A lot of people seem, to this perhaps not impartial observer, to be forgetting just what an extraordinary achievement it has been to get this far. Have you all forgotten how many people were saying it could never be done?

I note that Dr Pleming does says that the prospects for flight in 2009 are poor. But we have been in that situation before. Up till now, poor prospects in this amazing project have turned into commendable, and often unlikely, success.

airsound

ANW

- so was re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic

- and the band played on .......... same old familiar tune


There has never been any doubt in my mind that 558 would fly; you can do anything if you throw enough money at it - you can even send men to the moon. The big, unanswered question, has always been can a flying programme be sustained over the ten year period of the project? That is the true test of the proposals, not a first flight, which was a relatively easy objective, achieved by throwing great quantities of money into the pit.

I note a friend of mine coughed up the 'six figure sum' for 558's restarted flight test programme: a toss-up between giving the money to 558 or the wife's bloody horses, eh Mike !?!

Winco

airsound

I wish, for the life of me, I could understand your undying support for Dr Pleming and I wish that I could get it into your head what it is that I and 99% of the British people interested in this project want.........

We want Pleming, to come and tell US (the British public) what the hell is going on. We don't want to hear what he said to the press at the Royal Aeronautical Society from a third party, we want him to come out into the public, on forums like PPrune and tell us the facts about 558. It is us that have given him these huge amounts of cash - NOT the damned press or the RAS for goodness sake!

How much money is really needed? what it's needed for? and please tell us the truth about the whole fiasco thats called TVOC. That is all we want and it's all we have ever wanted, the truth and the facts. maybe then, we can make in informed judgement about whether or not we should give any more money towards it.

I'm genuingly sorry that his wife regards us as being responsible for his ill health and lack of recovery, and like many others I am sympathetic to her views, but it really is such a very simple request from us, that I am astonished as to why he persistantly refuses to answer any questions posed to him?? Maybe his wife could suggest that he answers his public critiques and at least that would shut many of us up.

More amazing is your own constant support to this man for his attitude and negativity towards the British public. It is shameful that the very people who have donated so much to this project are treated, and have been treated so shamefully by him and TVOC in general. Why do you keep supporting that appalling attitude towards us?

And now, yet again, we hear of more and more people to blame for the state of things; it's now Radio4's fault together with BBC1 and FiveLives Breakfast. It's amazing how its always someone elses fault and never TVOC.

Can't you see that the very reason why so many people have stopped giving to the project is because they are sick of their questions, comments and views being ignored? Can't Pleming understand that as long as he keeps ignoring questions and comments, the funds will just not be forthcoming? It is so ridiculous that you really must question the man's so-called managerial 'skills'.

airsound,
Have a word with the guy. Tell him why we are so sick and fed up and try to get him to come onto PPrune, and tell us the facts please. Thank you.

andrewmcharlton

I don't know that anyone would want to make anyone ill, wish anyone ill or hamper a return to health.

However, Dr Pleming is the CE of a charitable trust, recipient of public funds and willing to accept more.

He is therefore, whether he likes it or loathes it a public figure and we, the public are entitled to answers.

If he loathes the publicity when it is adverse he is the wrong man in the wrong job, but I think many of us already feel that. He has achieved great success in his role to date and making 558 a reality but he must recognise that the project, if it is to survive, needs a root and brach reform, not tinkering.

airsound

OK Winco, I give in. In my 16 Feb post I restrained my primitive urges and did not mention any other posters by name. I feared, in particular, that you would do your great party-trick of roaring out of your corner, firing from the hip with all your best splatter-gun splenetics. I shouldn’t have worried. You did anyway.

So..... Where to start? Well, perhaps with
With all the respect due to your seniority - as a Captain, and as a retired Wing Commander - I suggest that you have no idea what that 99% thinks. I would never presume to know any such thing.

Next
Well. I hestitate to say this here - but PPRuNe is not actually part of the democratic process. And, as I have tried to explain, after the treatment Robert Pleming has received at the hands of anonymous PPRuNe contributors, he is not likely to come on here and explain anything.

You may be interested to know that he gives interviews to different bits of the media about twice a week. Yes, I know - they’re “the damned press” - but I think you’ll find that, like it or not, the damned press is considered to be the ‘fourth estate’, part of the democratic process,. He also gives external briefings, addresses, presentations, speeches and the like to all sorts of different gatherings, all over the country, mostly in the evenings, about twice a month. All of which takes time and effort, in both preparation and presentation. Those occasions are usually publicised on the Vulcan To The Sky website. I guess you haven’t been to one of them. I’m sorry about that. But I think that that is really “coming out into the public”.

And one more thing
I never even intimated that it was the media’s fault - I’m one of them, for heaven’s sake - although the missing car was a minor admin glitch. No, the reason for mentioning it at all was to give a small example, from my own experience, of the kind of things that are going on behind the scenes, but which don’t always result in anything positive. Obviously I didn’t make myself clear - sorry! But I really wish you wouldn't always put the worst connotation on anything anybody says about the doings of VTST.

Finally, for you and everyone else who wants to see the actual figures, may I suggest the website might help?
Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust
If you look under ‘latest news’, on the right, you’ll see ‘VTST 2008-9 Budget’.
Also, if you put “accounts” into the ‘search’ area, you should find the 2007 accounts, filed last year.
For both of those things, you can download a pdf.
I’m told the 2008 accounts should be along in the not too far distant future.

Finally finally - Winco and andrewmcharlton - check your PMs.

airsound

Winco

airsound,

thank you once again for your comments, which, in the main of course, I wholeheartedly disagree with!

It is a well-known fact that you will not have a bad word said about Dr P, and you are perectly entitled to that. You have openly admitted in previous posts that you regard him as a friend, and friends should stand by one another and for that I respect your views. But that doesn't make you right either!

I don't know if I speak for 99% of the British public or what, but from the many many aviation enthusiasts that I do speak to, all over the globe, I can assure you that they are all annoyed, dissapointed, amazed, dismayed call it what you want, with Pleming and his lack of awareness at their feelings and his total reluctance to respond to any form of criticism.

I could reel off the names of 20 people immediately who have all written or e mailed Pleming, expressing their concerns about the project. Not a single one of them has even had an acknowledgment from Pleming or TVOC. Now, what ever you feel about me and the others on this forum, that is shameful, you must conceed. It's one thing not responding to concerns and complaints on PPrune, but to ignore individual letters is a completely different matter. And you have to ask yourself why? I regard it as ignorance on his part frankly.

But can't you see that this is the reason I believe why there is so much mounting pressure on Pleming? I don't have anyone in the frame to take over from him He has got the project thus far, but you have to own up to your mistakes and more importantly, if you want even more money from people, then you have to treat those very same people with a modicum of respect. He does not do that.

By your calculations, Pleming gives six interviews a month. I wonder why it is then, that with all these interviews taking place, there is so much lack of awareness in the public domain about what's happening? Do you think he might be giving interviews and talks to the wrong people? Or maybe the press have decided they are no longer intereted in it? Maybe you could suggest he does an interview with somone like Ken Ellis of the Key publishing group and answer some of the questions people are asking of him? Would you like me to write to Ken Ellis?

And as for going to one of his briefings, I have actually been to one. It was quite informative, even for me. But it was clear from the onset, that 'they' at Bruntingthorpe are the experts, and 'they' didn't need any help, advice or input from anyone else thank you (Marshalls, CAA etc. excluded of course)

I even met the colourful lady who was doing the PR/marketing/memorabilia sales etc. She was an expert on everything to do with the Vulcan, and I left somewhat surprised that she wasn't the Captain,Co-Pilot and crew Chief!. There wasn't anything that she didn't know! Should I go on about that side of things? I think probably not.

I will conceed that my comments about Radio4 the BBC and FiveLive were a bit tongue-in-cheek, but do you see why we feel like that? It's this constant 'it's not our fault Guv' attitude that gets to us.

Now, can I suggest that you go back to Robert P and pass on all our good wishes to him for a speedy recovery, none of us wish him ill health. But suggest to him that if he wants the public to give him a whole load more money, then the time has come for him to address the public, on public forums like this, and give it to us 'as it is'. I would even suggest to you that more people read this forum and the flypast forum, than read TVOC web site, and thus 'the message' would reach a far greater audience than TVOC website. (at least the vast majority of the comments on here, stay here. Unlike TVOC website, where anything even remotely 'dodgy' is removed 'pronto')

And finally, thank you for your offer to fix up a meeting for me to meet with the good lady. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you think it might achieve, certainly not at my age and state in life, but I do appreciate your thought, thank you!

The Winco

JEM60

Been an interested reader of these posts. I saw the Vulcan fly twice last year, having seen it many times before due to my age!!. Whilst at Duxford, after it's display she turned to me and said 'So that's what all the fuss is about. It didn't stir me!!!' Although she works at Duxford as a volunteer, she, like the vast majority of the the public, is not an Aviation Person. Herein is the problem.
The majority of the public, despite all the hype etc., seemingly couldn't care less whether or not they see a Vulcan, and possibly wouldn't recognise one if they saw it. Also, talking with my airshow aquaintances, them having seen it last year also, do not feel like forking out any more dosh. Several of them drove large distances to see it perform, and it didn't, for various reasons, all of which we Airshow People certainly understand e.g. serviceability problems etc.,
If the public had interest in seeing it fly, then it would, in my opinion, have been very well financed by now. The conclusion, therefore, must be that of 'flogging a dead horse'. The public are not interested, and it is being run by a group of enthusiasts, of which there are, of course, quite a few, but without sufficient capital to enable it to fly, and, in my opinion, no chance of raising it. Sorry to be one of the 'dismals' but I cannot fail to be anything other than pessismistic after all that has gone on. I guess I have said nothing new here, and this is my opinion only.
Coat and hat. Off bouncing round the Caribbean for three weeks. Cheers.

Harrier1980

'The majority of the public, despite all the hype etc., seemingly couldn't care less whether or not they see a Vulcan'

I wouldn't think the 'majority' would care about the BBMF or any other plane either.