andrewmcharlton

In the interests of objectivity, whilst I am a massive critic of the "regime", I did an FOI request last year and started getting stroppy about it with HLF and the trust and he did pick up the phone and talk extensively and was very honest in his remarks.

However, being equally objective that may have been motivated equally by the worry the FOI would force disclosure of accounts and alike which hadn't til then been compiled or maybe I just hit lucky.

I don't think for one moment he is a dishonest man, in fact the opposite, although he, in my humble opinion, is not the man to lead such a major project nor can I imagine how the figures (and they are 2 years old) quoted in the accounts can in any way shape or form be justified no matter how good he is / was etc.

The project management and trustees have on the face of it made some shocking business decisions whilst doing a fantastic engineering job throught the fine services of the front line staff. I was going to say if you pay peanuts you get monkeys but I suspect enough has been paid to buy the peanut plantation so we expect and deserve much much more.

chris50

Any more gripes in 2009
or news cheers chris

bubblesuk

Where to start Chris!

Well first the gripes,
My gas bill is astronically high, the wifes doing me head in, the kids are being little devils, i hurt my arm putting the seats up on my car, i cant find my glasses so imnot sure how this looks, the telly is crap, and i have heart burn.

And now the news.

Err..........see above basically.

andrewmcharlton

Hey Bubbles my missus is a headcase too, small world, where did you find yours?

I was going to try and blame it on the credit crunch or global warming but I think there must be someone connected with 558 I could blame somehow, maybe, somewhere, please?

Tim McLelland

I see the 558 Press office has granted us another release at last. Had to laugh at this line-

Whilst huge numbers of people saw the Vulcan display last summer, by contrast, hardly anyone appears to know of XH558’s plight now.

Guess you have to admire a press office that broadcasts its own deficiencies?

So it would appear that the saga really is in its death throes now, unless it's just another Pleming-esque attempt at screwing a little more money out of everyone. Interesting to see that Branson has supposedly spoken on the subject. If TVOC have any capability at all, now they'll pressure him into getting his cheque book out at last. Even if he doesn't want to sponsor the aircraft (and you can't blame him when he can't cover it in Virgin logos), he could make a one-off donation and milk the event for all the usual Virgin publicity he's so good at. But I don't suppose TVOC are even capable of convincing him that it's a good idea. They'd rather rattle collection cans.

Like I said before, this saga is going nowhere with a bunch of people who nobody trusts and who have failed to deliver on any of the much-promised sponsorship. It's nothing to do with the recesssion - it's because they've never really "sold" the idea to anyone. I've seen enough of Pleming and Co. on TV to make me squirm - they look and sound like a bunch of amateurs so you can't be surprised when they get ignored by people with money. The project needs some clued-up individuals who know how PR and media works, not some well-meaning enthusiasts who think that asking people for donations is ever (and I mean ever) going to bring-in enough money. What did they think this is? A jumble sale?

Let it run its course. Let them go away and then there's a slim chance that some other people might be inclined to take-over and do a much better job, hopefully with the same technical and engineering team who deserve better. Before the smart alecs chime-in with "like who?" well I don't know, but I know there are people out there who are interested in the project but who don't want to deal with TVOC. Likewise there are countless people who have already offered to help and they've been ignored. With another team maybe they'll come back? Hell, anything's got to be better than this long, painful death hasn't it?

I sympathise with the people who are doing their best to raise money from donations and I have no issues with people on the Vulcan forum sharing their thoughts and ideas or anything they like. My point is that it's all pointless in terms of getting 558 airborne. The fund-raising is well-meaning but it will achieve nothing as it can't hope to provide anything like the amounts needed. It requires big ideas from people who know how to get attention from the right people. Patently, the current bunch who are running the project haven't got a clue. I don't blame them for avoiding being answerable to every random enthusiasts who posts a question on a forum, but they should at least be direct, open and honest about where every penny has been spent, precisely how much money they need, who has been approached and who hasn't. Clearly, they're never going to tell us that so they deserve to go. It's not a private club, its a public concern paid-for by the public. As I've said before, the key to this is HLF as they can save the project and they can force TVOC to explain themselves. But HLF will not get involved unless they have to. But clearly, nobody has the inclination to try pressurising HLF as whenever I even mention the idea people just scoff. Presumably this is because it's easier than actually doing something. HLF is the only body that has enough "clout" to demand that TVOC deal openly and explain just what they have (or haven't) been doing for so long.

Our only other hope was the aviation press but as we've seen, they're just a bunch of toothless amateurs (indeed the term "press" hardly seems applicable to them any more) who churn-out pretty pictures, regurgitate press releases and vapid articles about nothing in particular, and never, ever want to ask any difficult questions or do something worthwhile. They're as big a joke as TVOC. But if nobody can be bothered to badger HLF then the only other practical option is to let TVOC run out of steam (and money) and let them go away. Then maybe - just maybe - some other people might be able to start again.

If Pleming achieved anything, at least he demonstrated that it can be done - so maybe that will be enough to convince others that it's worth a try?

Andrew - did you get a reply from Pleming then?

Matt Jones

Where have you read who's been paid and how much? I'd be very interested to read it.

andrewmcharlton

Matt - details in the one set of accounts that the trust has published so far, on their website somewhere.

Tim - No response as yet but I have been working overseas so he may have called etc, I don't know.

dakkg651

You lot have really gone at done it now.

My young son has just read through the latter part of this thread and is now sitting down composing a letter to Dr Pleming demanding the return of all the pocket money he's donated over the last couple of years.

Never seen him so angry. He's muttering something about Playstation games he could have had instead.

Better watch your back Pleming.

bubblesuk

Tim
Doc Bob answerd a question regarding the HLf at the members day last saturday he said. the Trust is in regular contact with their Lottery liaison and have frequently requested further funds. These requests have been turned down on all occasions as the Lottery will only fund capital schemes, not the ongoing revenue stream of a project. The most recent occasion that a request for more money was rejected was w/c 3rd Feb 2009! And i understand there are other talks ongoing, which i dont have details of.

Being realistic all this talk of letting the whole thing die and someone else talking over is'nt going to happen, Who in thier right minds is going to stump up the cash etc in resurecting 558? its far easier and cheaper to keep her servicable than it is to bring her back to life so to speak.

Andrew

I got my missus from Scotland and subsequently i have never set foot back in the place!

andrewmcharlton

Bubbles,

Either the HLF or Dr P are not telling us the whole truth.

The FOI request I did late last year was explicit in responding to one of my questions. The HLF said in the FOI that "No requests for further funding, formal or informal, have been made."

As for the wife, I am in Northumberland and perilously close to the border so maybe their has been some "mad wife" gene leakage since Hadrian's Wall fell into disrepair.






(That's actually a joke before anyone takes offence and as 1/4 Scots it is not intended as a racial slur. The interest of your wife in not being made may go down as well as down. Take advice before investing.)

hurn

Tim, the only 'smart alec' comments seem to be coming from you.
You continually talk about the project failing and someone else taking over, but then continually skirt around giving any answers to who that might be.

You either don't know anything or wont tell, so therefore I have no other option than to treat your comments with a large grain of salt. You seem to be as elusive with giving credible information out as TVOC are.

Personally I feel if the project dies, that's it. I can't see anyone else in the UK picking up the pieces, let alone getting the public to support an already failed project.
But that's just my opinion.

Even if someone actuall did pick up the pieces, I ONLY want to see 558 flying in the UK. If, as the official statement suggests, it might be sold to the Yanks, (and presumably taken to the states) then I'm not going to give a damn about it or supporting it.
If its not kept flying in the UK, it might as well be stuck in a museum for all I care, as I wont be seeing it anyway.

bubblesuk

Andrew

Sorry if it wasnt clear but the latest request was made as week commencing the 3rd of this month.


The leakeage of mad Scotish women has made it down here to Leicester.

andrewmcharlton

Bubbles,

Was it your impression that the request to the HLF was very recent or did you form the impression it had been an ongoing dialogue?

It seems surreal that at the 11th hour as the fat lady is gargling and tready to go on stage it suddnyl occurs to them to ask the HLF and haven't previously.

I might just re-submit my FOI again and see if the answers change !

Thanks

bubblesuk

I couldnt say to be honest Andrew, i would think though that it was towards the end of the year.

JEM60

Hurn, there is 'no grain of salt' to Tim's comments. He has continually suugested that it will probably go to the States, and, whilst I have my differences with him from time to time, I can only agree that this is all that there is left. He cannot raise the money, neither can you or I, or Dr. P. it would seem. Are we finally coming to the end of this mis-managed saga??

Tim McLelland

I think Andrew is right in saying that we might not necessarily be getting the truth here! Seem to be an awful lot of conflicting comments regarding HLF. Besides, as I've said before, it's very easy to claim that HLF has been asked and that they refuse to co-operate any further, as if that's the end of the matter. Obviously, it doesn't have to be the end of the matter at all if TVOC didn't want it to be. Clearly, they have a golden opportunity to put all their efforts into making a major public issue out of this matter, highlighting how HLF have thrown money at a project which is now dead, unless they put-in a little bit (by their standards) more. It's simple - what would HLF rather do? Be shown-up as wasting a lot of money just because they want to wrap themselves in self-imposed "rules" to avoid paying a bit more, thereby making the original payment worth every penny? Ultimately, HLF are spending our money and if they refuse to spend any more, then it's down to the Government (via us) to dictate that they do otherwise. We have every right to see our money spent as we (not they) see fit.

Problem is, I don't think TVOC have the stomach for a fight like that. It's far easier to just say "we asked but they said no" and go back to lame requests for donations. It's ludicrous - it's the only obvious way of getting the money they need and it would appear that they haven't got the guts to fight for it. Point is, what other flimsy options do they have? None it would seem.

As for America, well I just don't see what else they could do with a grounded aeroplane. If a few people think they'd no longer support TVOC if there was any hint of it going overseas then what can one say? Clearly, these people don't have the interests of the aircraft's future at heart, they have their own interests at heart. It's quite ridiculous to say it would be better in a museum here (not that any museum is likely to take it) rather than risk a chance of it flying overseas. That's just insulting all the people who worked so hard to get it flying again. We've got plenty of prserved Vulcans here so adding another one just for the sake of not taking a chance is just silly. There's no guarantee that it would fare any better in the US but as I keep saying, once it is grounded here (and there's no sign of it ever flying again) then it's stuck for good, whereas if TVOC used whatever money is left to get it out of the UK while they can, there is at least a slim chance that it could be kept airworthy and - just possibly - come back one day. You can be sure that if it stays on the ground here for very long, the CAA will make sure it never flies again.

Think the problem is that some people think taking it overseas is an admission of defeat. Well if it is then so be it. Far better to accept the inevitable and do what can be done, rather than just stick one's head in the sand and allow 558 to stay here and rot.

TVOC still have a chance to rescue the project if they would use their time to challenge HLF and to convince people like Branson that there is some promotional mileage in at least making a donation. But I fear that TVOC just don't look at things in the same way. They seem fixated with their usual approach of secretive pleas for sponsorship, combined with stupid requests for private donations which will barely cover the sandwich bill. They don't seem to have the imagination to look at the project on a wider scale. Like I sad before, the don't even take advantage of media opportunities when they get them. They get a chance to talk on national TV and radio and as ever it's Pleming babbling and stuttering about all the irrelevant points which just make him (and the project) look like an amateur pipe dream. They should have got themselves media-savvy and had someone like Jeremy Clarkson (even though I can't stand the bloke!) waiting in the wings to talk to the media and explain the project in language that they (and the public) understand.

It just ain't gonna happen. I see no other alternative than simply letting TVOC blow themselves out. There's no guarantee that anyone else will step-in to rescue the project but it's a possibility and that seems to be a glimmer of hope that TVOC just don't offer. But I guess we'll see soon as their deadline is approcahing. Should be fascinating to see what happens when they do finally call it quits. Might be an opportunity to finally find-out precisely what has been going-on and what all these people really have been doing all this time - not that this will be much comfort I suppose

saracenman

TM - if any part of 'sticking one's head in the sand' can be defined as 'not listening', you seem to be suffering the same affliction!

many of us (including me!) have, for many months, despaired of the lack of any info coming out of Brunty - but now that it does, you chose to disbelieve it!

something tells me that it will take nothing short of Dr. P standing up and publicly saying "Tim McLelland is completely right!" for your stylus to escape the scratch in which it is clearly lodged!

if you are so convinced that Dr. P's main motivation behind all of this is to line his own pockets (a common theme on here!), don't you think he'd be exploring every 'self-preservation' possibility - aka more HLF money?

Tim, you can't have your cake and eat it I'm afraid!

sm

bubblesuk

Quote:

I think Andrew is right in saying that we might not necessarily be getting the truth here! Seem to be an awful lot of conflicting comments regarding HLF. Besides, as I've said before, it's very easy to claim that HLF has been asked and that they refuse to co-operate any further, as if that's the end of the matter. Obviously, it doesn't have to be the end of the matter at all if TVOC didn't want it to be. Clearly, they have a golden opportunity to put all their efforts into making a major public issue out of this matter, highlighting how HLF have thrown money at a project which is now dead, unless they put-in a little bit (by their standards) more. It's simple - what would HLF rather do? Be shown-up as wasting a lot of money just because they want to wrap themselves in self-imposed "rules" to avoid paying a bit more, thereby making the original payment worth every penny? Ultimately, HLF are spending our money and if they refuse to spend any more, then it's down to the Government (via us) to dictate that they do otherwise. We have every right to see our money spent as we (not they) see fit.

The latest request was made week commencing 3rd of this month and was turned down, and as i understand it talks are still ongoing. we're talking the heritege lottery fund here! since when has commeon sense every been a feature of lottery handouts?

Quote:

Problem is, I don't think TVOC have the stomach for a fight like that. It's far easier to just say "we asked but they said no" and go back to lame requests for donations. It's ludicrous - it's the only obvious way of getting the money they need and it would appear that they haven't got the guts to fight for it. Point is, what other flimsy options do they have? None it would seem.

You could interpret the fact that with everyone at T.V.O.C. on a months notice and yet still planning for the future and still talking to the H.L.F as either blind optimism or not giving up for a fight, no need to answer that as i know what you will say.

Quote:

As for America, well I just don't see what else they could do with a grounded aeroplane. If a few people think they'd no longer support TVOC if there was any hint of it going overseas then what can one say? Clearly, these people don't have the interests of the aircraft's future at heart, they have their own interests at heart. It's quite ridiculous to say it would be better in a museum here (not that any museum is likely to take it) rather than risk a chance of it flying overseas. That's just insulting all the people who worked so hard to get it flying again. We've got plenty of prserved Vulcans here so adding another one just for the sake of not taking a chance is just silly. There's no guarantee that it would fare any better in the US but as I keep saying, once it is grounded here (and there's no sign of it ever flying again) then it's stuck for good, whereas if TVOC used whatever money is left to get it out of the UK while they can, there is at least a slim chance that it could be kept airworthy and - just possibly - come back one day. You can be sure that if it stays on the ground here for very long, the CAA will make sure it never flies again.

I know it was in the press release but i for one think the prospects of 558 going state side are pretty remote. If T.V.O.C. goes into administration theres gonna be a legal mess and 558 will be in the middle of it regarding ownership and dishing out what assets there are to crediters and ownership of 558 will i imagine be a big issue, and with 1 month to administration where is the funds to ferry her to the states? The cost of it all would be huge and why would the U.S. want a Vulcan? As for the C.A.A,.if it wasnt for them being so helpfull 558 would never have flown and im sure her permit doesnt allow her to go to the states, and wouldnt it cost even more to get the relevent clearence? bit of a pipe dream this american saviour if you aske me.

Quote:

TVOC still have a chance to rescue the project if they would use their time to challenge HLF and to convince people like Branson that there is some promotional mileage in at least making a donation. But I fear that TVOC just don't look at things in the same way. They seem fixated with their usual approach of secretive pleas for sponsorship, combined with stupid requests for private donations which will barely cover the sandwich bill. They don't seem to have the imagination to look at the project on a wider scale. Like I sad before, the don't even take advantage of media opportunities when they get them. They get a chance to talk on national TV and radio and as ever it's Pleming babbling and stuttering about all the irrelevant points which just make him (and the project) look like an amateur pipe dream. They should have got themselves media-savvy and had someone like Jeremy Clarkson (even though I can't stand the bloke!) waiting in the wings to talk to the media and explain the project in language that they (and the public) understand.

It's been said numerous times that Mr Branson has been approached and declined to help out, now the fact that he has added his name to a letter in the telegraph could be attributed to renewed efforts to get him on board could it not? As to weather he has made a donation or not or if he is planning on doing so, who knows? and as for Clarkson- dont make me laugh! the mans a buffon of the highest order and he gets more and more wrapped up in his own hype with each passing day, i wouldnt have him any where near!

Quote:

It just ain't gonna happen. I see no other alternative than simply letting TVOC blow themselves out. There's no guarantee that anyone else will step-in to rescue the project but it's a possibility and that seems to be a glimmer of hope that TVOC just don't offer. But I guess we'll see soon as their deadline is approcahing. Should be fascinating to see what happens when they do finally call it quits. Might be an opportunity to finally find-out precisely what has been going-on and what all these people really have been doing all this time - not that this will be much comfort I suppose

Anyone stepping in will stand a better chance if T.V.O.C. stays solvant making the personal changes that many think are needed would be a dman sight easier and cheaper than having to resurect the whole shabang from administration. left to long and she will lose her permit etc and the chances of getting it back would be prohibitive. The long term is a erious issue and needs dealing with but the short term is far more pressing at the moment .

Tim McLelland

Good Lord! Why does every discussion have to turn into am personal slanging-match?!

Saracen, I'm simply pointing-out the nonsensical way that TVOC are operating. Andrew's quite right that it seems vaguely suspicious that Pleming suddenly starts saying that HLF have been approached repeatedly after having been completely silent on the subject for ages, and HLF specifically stating that they had not been approached. I know which party I would tend to believe.

Anyway, think what you like. I'm still waiting for even the slightest hint of this exciting new-look TVOC team that is supposedly going to wow us with their can-do attitude and approachability. I know what I think but if you want to convince yourself otherwise then by all means go ahead.

Bubbles - fair comments but personally I don't think I agree with anything you've said there!

saracenman

TM...

if you care to read back a couple of pages, i have attempted to point out that this is not the dream-team, but is considerably better than before!

as for a 'slightest hint' - well, I've seen more than a slight hint!

sm