Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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SM
i imagine that you're referring to Denis - he prides himself on being able to answer any 558 question you can think of!
very knowledgeable bloke
sm
=================================================
Hi SM
I am amazed, considering the number of times we have crossed swords in the past, I never ever thought you would have expressed such sentiments about me.
Thank you kind sir..
now regarding the Farnborough Saga etc.... I don't know where you got the info from? but what follows is the true account...
Let me clear this up right now as I was involved with the Trust at Farnborough...
1] Club booked accomodation... Shirley Tull, club airshow rep, reserved three rooms at a local pub and when the club decided NOT to have a seperate appearance at the show, she was going to cancel the reservation, I as the Trust deputy organiser asked her to transfer the reservation to me for the Trust, this she did. What actually happened we, the Trust, decided we also would not require the accomodation and I cancelled it.
2] All the club volunteers that attended Farnborough were working for the Trust.
3] Accomodation for ALL the project team and it's club volunteers was provided either by Farnborough International or the Trust.
With regard to Friends numbers this stands at 25,051 and 7,467 club members.. but some people appear on both databases..
Denis Parker
VTST Friends Coord/VTSClub Membership Sect
i imagine that you're referring to Denis - he prides himself on being able to answer any 558 question you can think of!
very knowledgeable bloke
sm
=================================================
Hi SM
I am amazed, considering the number of times we have crossed swords in the past, I never ever thought you would have expressed such sentiments about me.
Thank you kind sir..
now regarding the Farnborough Saga etc.... I don't know where you got the info from? but what follows is the true account...
Let me clear this up right now as I was involved with the Trust at Farnborough...
1] Club booked accomodation... Shirley Tull, club airshow rep, reserved three rooms at a local pub and when the club decided NOT to have a seperate appearance at the show, she was going to cancel the reservation, I as the Trust deputy organiser asked her to transfer the reservation to me for the Trust, this she did. What actually happened we, the Trust, decided we also would not require the accomodation and I cancelled it.
2] All the club volunteers that attended Farnborough were working for the Trust.
3] Accomodation for ALL the project team and it's club volunteers was provided either by Farnborough International or the Trust.
With regard to Friends numbers this stands at 25,051 and 7,467 club members.. but some people appear on both databases..
Denis Parker
VTST Friends Coord/VTSClub Membership Sect
Last edited by Zero-1; 10th Feb 2009 at 15:20.
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Sad News??
Just had a text from a reliable friend saying that the Old Girl has been grounded and all 'staff' are to be sacked!
Wish I could say I'm surprised but I'm not.
RIP 558
Winco
Wish I could say I'm surprised but I'm not.
RIP 558
Winco
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Letter in the Telegraph, 11 Feb
In todays Telegraph
Letter and signatories may be viewed here. (Scroll down)
SIR – The public has donated more than £5 million over three years for the restoration of the last delta-winged Avro Vulcan bomber. She is the only flying Vulcan in the world and the reaction last summer to her triumphant return to display flying was ecstatic.
The stirringly beautiful Vulcan in flight is an inspiration to the young and a reminder of the need to increase the country’s skills in design, engineering and manufacturing. The Vulcan is also a penetrating reminder of the lessons and sacrifices of the Cold War.
The efforts to keep Vulcan flying now face potentially insuperable funding challenges. We call upon the MoD to give a home to Vulcan in an expanded RAF Memorial Flight. The public paid for Vulcan’s return; now the Government needs to help keep her flying.
The stirringly beautiful Vulcan in flight is an inspiration to the young and a reminder of the need to increase the country’s skills in design, engineering and manufacturing. The Vulcan is also a penetrating reminder of the lessons and sacrifices of the Cold War.
The efforts to keep Vulcan flying now face potentially insuperable funding challenges. We call upon the MoD to give a home to Vulcan in an expanded RAF Memorial Flight. The public paid for Vulcan’s return; now the Government needs to help keep her flying.
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558
Winco............
All I can say is that you ignore things like that as the ONLY place you need to go to to get ANY information is the Official Vulcan website.
The Vulcan does not need any negativity at the moment, and it is stupid things like this that will doom the project as people will not see it as a worthwhile investment.
Oh, and also ignor thet other sites that constantly put the project down....
All I can say is that you ignore things like that as the ONLY place you need to go to to get ANY information is the Official Vulcan website.
The Vulcan does not need any negativity at the moment, and it is stupid things like this that will doom the project as people will not see it as a worthwhile investment.
Oh, and also ignor thet other sites that constantly put the project down....
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The VTTS website forum seems to have hit an all time low today in my eyes.
Apart from the usual "just give us the money" brigade, look at two of the less sensitive / sensible quotes that leap out:
I note one brave lad who is new to their forum has posted a dissenting voice, poor lad, he will probably be excommunicated for being a non-believer before the day is out.
On a serious note, it seems that again what is disseminated to the members (according to their posts last week) and to the press is vastly at odds. Such a shame.
Apart from the usual "just give us the money" brigade, look at two of the less sensitive / sensible quotes that leap out:
even less chance of national coverage now with the 2 light aircraft crash in wales.
Richard Branson think that HMG should step in, flipping heck, we only need 1.8 million to get 558 in the air this display season, why the chuffing heck does he not give it to us, he will make it back in interest by the end of the day
He makes me sick at times...................
He makes me sick at times...................
On a serious note, it seems that again what is disseminated to the members (according to their posts last week) and to the press is vastly at odds. Such a shame.
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Can't say I'm surprised Andrew. I rarely even look at the site as it's just another forum like all the others, full of pointless comments. It's amazing that people chime-in with things like "why doesn't Richard Branson step in" as if it's some innovative idea that hasn't been mentioned before. It's just the same old chatter that goes round and round in circles. Point is, the TVOC people probably never even look at it so what is the point? It's not as if TVOC are sat there taking note of everything (or anything) that people say. In one respect you can't blame them as you'd waste too much time reading nonsense from random idiots, but as we know, they like to maintain a very distinct distance from the public, and the people on the forum are probably deluding themselves if they think (as they probably do) that anything they say will ever be read by ayone that matters.
It's clear that TVOC are going to plod-along and do whatever they damned-well like and they're not going to bother discussing anything with anyone. I take it you never heard from Pleming?
My view is that it's probably better to just forget about the whole saga and see what happens. Maybe 558 will survive through this year's season - who knows. But if it doesn't, at least they'll all go away and maybe some others will come along and do better. Which ever way it goes, it's clear that TVOC aren't going to communicate with anyone, and it's clear from the efforts I've made that nobody has the appetite to force them to communicate - or to force HLF to do more. There's an awful lot of people who want to make comments, but very few people who want to do anything practical, so we might as well just forget about it I think - hope for the best but expect the worst!
It's clear that TVOC are going to plod-along and do whatever they damned-well like and they're not going to bother discussing anything with anyone. I take it you never heard from Pleming?
My view is that it's probably better to just forget about the whole saga and see what happens. Maybe 558 will survive through this year's season - who knows. But if it doesn't, at least they'll all go away and maybe some others will come along and do better. Which ever way it goes, it's clear that TVOC aren't going to communicate with anyone, and it's clear from the efforts I've made that nobody has the appetite to force them to communicate - or to force HLF to do more. There's an awful lot of people who want to make comments, but very few people who want to do anything practical, so we might as well just forget about it I think - hope for the best but expect the worst!
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Forums according to Tim McLelland.
Quote.
I rarely even look at the site as it's just another forum like all the others, full of pointless comments.
Like yours?
I rarely even look at the site as it's just another forum like all the others, full of pointless comments.
Like yours?
Last edited by ipso; 11th Feb 2009 at 15:06.
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Winco was nearly right. The aircraft hasn't been grounded (but it's a good emotive word to use on aviation forums) and the staff haven't been sacked. We have been given 4 weeks notice of termination of contract.
But then, as an accredited TVOC Vulcan Engineer, all of the above could be absolute nonsense from a random idiot.
But then, as an accredited TVOC Vulcan Engineer, all of the above could be absolute nonsense from a random idiot.
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I rarely even look at the site as it's just another forum like all the others, full of pointless comments. It's just the same old chatter that goes round and round in circles.
My view is that it's probably better to just forget about the whole saga and see what happens. Maybe 558 will survive through this year's season - who knows.
But if it doesn't, at least they'll all go away and maybe some others will come along and do better.
But if it doesn't, at least they'll all go away and maybe some others will come along and do better.
In this current financial climate I seriously doubt there's anyone who could come along and just pick up the reigns unless you know some aviation mad Sheik somewhere.
Once the engineers are laid off, the anti-dets and servicing wont be done, the OEM support will be lost, she'll lose that permit to fly and that will be that.
Lets face it, if it gets grounded that's it....end of...no more flying Vulcan , ever!
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Hardly. She was in need of far more work 3 years ago than she is in today, so if she was laid up for a year or two until better economic conditions are available, regaining her permit would just be a matter of carrying out some more work.Getting her somewhere that wouldn't charge hangarage for that storage period is the tricky bit. I know of one place that offered just that a while back, they operate vintage jets already so could presumably take on the anti-det schedule if enough money was forthcoming to keep her on tick-over like that.
The "even less chance of national coverage now with the 2 light aircraft crash in wales." comment is pretty despicable - I hope it wasn't from anybody actually involved with the project.
The "even less chance of national coverage now with the 2 light aircraft crash in wales." comment is pretty despicable - I hope it wasn't from anybody actually involved with the project.
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Not meant as a personal pop. Did you not see the question mark? Was simply pointing out that Mr McLelland regards forums as nothing more than pointless comments.
Taking this to a logical conclusion is he including himself?
Thanks for the welcome. Mr charlton.
Taking this to a logical conclusion is he including himself?
Thanks for the welcome. Mr charlton.
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Ipso, you're illustrating my point perfectly. People making smart-ass replies might seem amusing to the person who makes the comment but so what? It achieves absolutely nothing other than simply boring any people who have something useful to contribute. They read all the rubbish and conclude - quite rightly - that the various forums are indeed full of random idiots and they go away, never to be seen again. I know this is the case as people have told me that they've done precisely that.
Point is, the endless silly comments are fine but it doesn't get 558 so much as an inch from the hangar door. You could read through all the posts on the Vulcan forums and you'd probably find no more than a handful which were of any direct relevance or value. Little wonder that TVOC don't take the slightest bit of notice. Surely, the only possible use of a forum on this subject must be to gather like-minded people together who want to do something constructive about the project. But it never, ever happens. Look at my comments about HLF... all I got was silly sarcasm or dismissive arguments - pretty much anything other than a hint of actually doing something.
So as I said before, my view is that the only course of action seems to be letting TVOC get on with whatever they're doing behind their closed doors and hope that they achieve success, even though you get the impression that they're heading for failure. But if they do fail, then at least there's the opportunity for someone to pick-up the pieces and try again, perhaps with better results. It's easy to say "like who" and "how" - but who knows? There are certainly people out there who are interested and who might be able to achieve something so let's just hope that if TVOC fail, then someone else might fare better.
Failing that, we could just continue making sarcastic comments if we just want to pass the time?
Point is, the endless silly comments are fine but it doesn't get 558 so much as an inch from the hangar door. You could read through all the posts on the Vulcan forums and you'd probably find no more than a handful which were of any direct relevance or value. Little wonder that TVOC don't take the slightest bit of notice. Surely, the only possible use of a forum on this subject must be to gather like-minded people together who want to do something constructive about the project. But it never, ever happens. Look at my comments about HLF... all I got was silly sarcasm or dismissive arguments - pretty much anything other than a hint of actually doing something.
So as I said before, my view is that the only course of action seems to be letting TVOC get on with whatever they're doing behind their closed doors and hope that they achieve success, even though you get the impression that they're heading for failure. But if they do fail, then at least there's the opportunity for someone to pick-up the pieces and try again, perhaps with better results. It's easy to say "like who" and "how" - but who knows? There are certainly people out there who are interested and who might be able to achieve something so let's just hope that if TVOC fail, then someone else might fare better.
Failing that, we could just continue making sarcastic comments if we just want to pass the time?
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Failing that, we could just continue making sarcastic comments if we just want to pass the time?
I don't think this element of the saga will ever actually stop!
I don't think this element of the saga will ever actually stop!
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Point is, the endless silly comments are fine but it doesn't get 558 so much as an inch from the hangar door. You could read through all the posts on the Vulcan forums and you'd probably find no more than a handful which were of any direct relevance or value. Little wonder that TVOC don't take the slightest bit of notice. Surely, the only possible use of a forum on this subject must be to gather like-minded people together who want to do something constructive about the project. But it never, ever happens. Look at my comments about HLF... all I got was silly sarcasm or dismissive arguments - pretty much anything other than a hint of actually doing something.
I am a member of the VTSC forum but enjoy reading other forums too.
I take your points, and agree somewhat, but there is an element that I feel you have overlooked. You say that we could read through all the posts on VTSCF(orum) and only a handful are "of any direct relevance or value" - it is true that only a handful are about 558 itself but the count of threads regarding fundraising for 558 is much more than "a handful".
As for the remaining posts that aren't about 558 or fundraising for 558, they are predominantly chit-chat amongst the members. It may seem that a public aviation forum is no place to conduct day to day friendships but if it weren't for the friendships that have been formed on the forum then things like the forum fun days, the karting days, the photobook, the cookbook, the christmas party, the members enclosure at dunsfold last year etc would never have happened. People travel from around the country to meet up with friends they have met on that forum; and when the going got tough we kept each other going through the hard times (and still are). I personally can remember a few times when I could have quite happily stayed at home and watched TV instead of driving 2 hours to Brunty - but I didn't, because I wanted to see my friends and didn't want to let them down. All of these events and projects have raised a lot of cash for 558, so you see even the posts that aren't in the engineering section have still contributed overall to 558.
We don't always agree with each other, and we don't 'represent' TVOC/VTST/VTSC but we are mostly all there for the same reason - we love this Vulcan!
I'm sure you are right that some people go in to the forum, look at the "rubbish" and leave again; but I can't believe that a few threads of "rubbish" would change their support for the actual aircraft.
I am not a "keep the faith" person, but I do try to find reasons why something was done or said a certain way. The people at the helm of this project are a long way from perfect but it would be a tragedy for all of their hard work to be lost at this point, or the airframe that they have spent 14 years 'doing up' passed on to someone else to do the finishing touches and enjoy her remaining flying years.
I am not criticising you or your views, because that last post certainly did make some sense, but I just wanted to put across a side of the vulcan forum that perhaps you haven't encountered.
Regards
Rachel
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Of course it could all be part of a plan.
For example.
Company is insolvent, arrange a pre-pack administration that basically shows the administrators that you are the only people who can take the business out of insolvency.
once in administration lots of debts can be re-arranged and modified lets say.
bring it out of administration with a lot of baggage removed.
Not a bad plan actually.
That is of course if its going into administration of course.
Geoff
For example.
Company is insolvent, arrange a pre-pack administration that basically shows the administrators that you are the only people who can take the business out of insolvency.
once in administration lots of debts can be re-arranged and modified lets say.
bring it out of administration with a lot of baggage removed.
Not a bad plan actually.
That is of course if its going into administration of course.
Geoff