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Old 7th Dec 2020, 08:31
  #2301 (permalink)  
 
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Good question. By stupid behaviours I guess I was thinking of what we see from America, where people are quick to loudly insist on their rights while completely ignoring their responsibilities. After the vaccine has had wide scale take-up I don’t know what the limits of prudence will dictate. We should always keep the hygiene practices, and where possible, social distancing. Would it be a bad thing to embrace the Asian habit of wearing a mask when suffering from a cold?

I expect that with enough of the population inoculated Covid-19 will eventually be like the flu: mostly sporadic manageable cases with the odd mortality.

Also understand that I am writing from an Australian perspective. The virus is all but eradicated here, and people are now behaving more normally. We are however aware that international arrivals can spark yet another outbreak that may re-introduce the virus so so e safeguards like masks indoors are still in wide use. The flights are pretty full, and the airport reunions all seem pretty joyous and pretty intimate. Just a few more months (6?) and this will be mostly behind us.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 08:49
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus
Would it be a bad thing to embrace the Asian habit of wearing a mask when suffering from a cold?.
Before anyone jumps down my throat about not being an expert, I am asking because I genuinely want to learn. I always thought (because I was told), that your immune system gets stronger by being exposed to germs. I thought exercise, eating veggies, letting kids play in dirt, were all factors? Now its avoid everything at all costs. If we have kids soon, do doctors recommend keeping them as sanitised as possible? Again, I am seriously not being facetious. It just seems that we have drastically changed our thinking over the last few months.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 08:49
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Originally Posted by boeinga320
By stupid behaviours, is that like going out? Or something more specific? I'm not being facetious, genuinely curious what we will deem to be reckless. Imagine no more partying or traveling or seeing mates.
Not wearing masks, large gatherings amongst maskless/unvaccinated crowds, failing to isolate/seek medical care when sick etc. If lockdown restrictions have to be temporarily put back in place organising a "Covid Truth" protest.....

Like was said for the most part these aren't a factor in Australia. Look at how much media attention the one case of the German tourists (it was not their stuff up btw, it was NSW Police) attracted and they did not even have the virus. These points are a factor in other nations, just last week in the US a one day death toll exceeded those killed in the WTC attacks, and the numbers are spiking upward through their dark winter.

Now you can travel around Australia, see mates, party for the most part at bars and restaurants. Once the vaccine uptake is widespread here and protocols for allowing immunised travelers into the country are put in place that will be extended to overseas travel. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 08:52
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Originally Posted by boeinga320
By stupid behaviours, is that like going out? Or something more specific? I'm not being facetious, genuinely curious what we will deem to be reckless. Imagine no more partying or traveling or seeing mates.
boeinga320, I truly can't comprehend why people under (say) 30 are putting up with this, and as far as I can tell, it is not destined to get better any time soon. I don't have any insight into South African strategy (where you seem to be from, a/c username data), but UK vax strategy is public and Australian will follow fairly soon. UK vax policy is all about avoiding mortality - URL is too long to post, google for "Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation: advice on priority groups for COVID-19 vaccination". NOTHING in that paper talks about needs and aspirations of age cohorts who have little to be concerned about when it comes to COVID (except passing it on to their oldies or unusually vulnerable friends). There is NOTHING in the reasoning for prioritization about restoring normality, enjoyment, freedom, etc for say under 30's. Does not rate a mention. The Australian 2021 vax program is predicated on X million doses (X / 2 million vax, @ 2x dose per person, where I can't say what X is due confidentiality, but it is way south of 26.5), with anything beyond that being good fortune. Present indications are that it's near-identical to UK policy.

Turns out (according to model based analyses) that if the objective was to reduce the size and duration of outbreaks, so that we could relax social distancing and give maximum social freedom, then we'd concentrate on vaccinating the people in high-contact professions immediately after covering the healthcare and critical professions like firefighters and defence personnel. But nup, after healthcare they're working their way down the age curve, oldies first - despite the fact that the elderly spread the virus less (they are more commonly "sinks" in the social networks) compared to taxi drivers, people in retail, etc etc. Basically every vax given to an oldie just protects them, there is no (disease spread( spinoff benefit for society more broadly.

I fear that Dec 2021 could still look a lot like Dec 2020 for much of the world's younger generations, and FWIW, they have my blessing to act up about this.

We should have seen so much more innovation around maintaining normality and enjoyment for the under-30s during the COVID period. But when doctors are put in charge, alongside mainly married-with-children middle aged+ pollies, that is just not on the radar.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 09:00
  #2305 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus
Would it be a bad thing to embrace the Asian habit of wearing a mask when suffering from a cold?
It would be a great thing. Covid Deaths per 1 million of population in selected countries:

Japan 18
China 3
South Korea 11
Malaysia 12
Vietnam 0.5
Thailand 1
Singapore 5

And some western countries for comparison:

USA 870
UK 900
France 840
Brazil 830
Italy 1000

I think it would be a very beneficial thing for Australia to adopt far more aspects of Asian culture into our own than just the wearing of masks.

Last edited by dr dre; 7th Dec 2020 at 17:55.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 09:14
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Originally Posted by 601
I can do that in my head. Based on 25627453 it is 25627
Try it with a calculator. Do you get the same answer?
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 09:28
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unexplained blip, exactly. Everyone who tells me to stay home and isolate, can either work from home, or has money saved up. And they say that I should have saved more (fair enough and lesson learned, but I'm 29 years old). I got sent home from Dubai to a country that pays 31 Aussie dollars unemployment per month and since March I am yet to receive that. I have a uni degree in Computer Science and economics, and the best job I could find was delivering pizzas. When I got covid 2 months ago, I was told how irresponsible I've been by driving around. Again, not looking for sympathy, but sometimes people don't seem to realise that not everyone has a nice trust fund or big savings to live off. I realise I don't really have the right to be posting on an Aussie forum so I'll stop after this one. Chins up everyone and let's hope this nonsense is nearly over. I'm off to deliver another Margherita. Fingers crossed for a tip.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 09:43
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boeinga320 let me guess. Even though you have had COVID-19 *and* the governments of the world are obsessed with vaccines and how quickly they can get hold of them, you have gone and got yourself vaccinated naturally, and yet have not one jot of extra freedom or privilege --- despite having obtained exactly what they are all so desperately scrambling and longing for? And since then, nobody has asked you to step into a critical role to exploit your immune status - am I right? You are not flying freight around the globe, carefree and safe as houses? Drafted into Medivac? Tending to the sick and needy? Nup, you are delivering pizza.

And it is exactly the same here. It's infuriating.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 10:34
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Originally Posted by unexplained blip
boeinga320 let me guess. Even though you have had COVID-19 *and* the governments of the world are obsessed with vaccines and how quickly they can get hold of them, you have gone and got yourself vaccinated naturally, and yet have not one jot of extra freedom or privilege --- despite having obtained exactly what they are all so desperately scrambling and longing for? And since then, nobody has asked you to step into a critical role to exploit your immune status - am I right? You are not flying freight around the globe, carefree and safe as houses? Drafted into Medivac? Tending to the sick and needy? Nup, you are delivering pizza.

And it is exactly the same here. It's infuriating.
Awesome.... Shame people can catch Covid-19 twice (or more) 'thatís the emerging consensus among health experts who are learning more about the possibility that those whoíve recovered from the coronavirus can get it again'
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 20:31
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Originally Posted by Bignose101
Awesome.... Shame people can catch Covid-19 twice (or more) 'thatís the emerging consensus among health experts who are learning more about the possibility that those whoíve recovered from the coronavirus can get it again'
I'm only aware of reports of this occurring in rare cases where there remains conjecture about what recurrence is indicating, and where symptoms are mild. If there is a considerable swing towards reinfection, then vaccination programs like Australia's proposed one that don't get everyone done in a short period (rather, less than a third annually), are in trouble. In the worst case we're back at an exclusion strategy again.

Even PCR (swab) tests are maximum just over 75% reliable (!!) and so people as potential recurrence cases would need blood analysis done in order to be confirmed. Pseudo-reinfection, or long-running infection that was never fully cleared, masked by dud PCR tests is an option that remains in play at least in theory.

Immunized people present surfaces for transporting the virus, and some people might have a residual susceptibility (what infectivity that will relate to is unknown), So some precautions may remain necessary. Nevertheless these previously-infected people are an asset that at least in Australia don't seem to be being utilized, and this is inconsistent other strategy elements. Aircrew going o/s still have to isolate for two weeks despite their personal COVID history afaik.

There was a philosophical decision early on to dismiss the idea of an immunity passport for those that caught the virus naturally. Maybe this was because there'd then be a whole lot of frustrated under-30s licking each other with the intention of gaining freedom? This policy has stuck and also remains at odds with the vaccination orientation. I am cynical and put it down to medicine's god-complex mixed-in with a lack of imagination and innovation of behalf of our governments.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 01:50
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"There was a philosophical decision early on to dismiss the idea of an immunity passport for those that caught the virus naturally. Maybe this was because there'd then be a whole lot of frustrated under-30s licking each other with the intention of gaining freedom? This policy has stuck and also remains at odds with the vaccination orientation. I am cynical and put it down to medicine's god-complex mixed-in with a lack of imagination and innovation of behalf of our governments."

"dud PCR tests"

Kind of answered your own question there.


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Old 10th Dec 2020, 07:13
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What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool? He is not attending national cabinet in Canberra because SM the SA premier is attending saying he doesnít want to catch cooties from him.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 07:23
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Originally Posted by Ragnor
What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool? He is not attending national cabinet in Canberra because SM the SA premier is attending saying he doesnít want to catch cooties from him.
My mother in law and the rest of the family live in WA, and I can assure you they are more than happy with us COVID carrying eastern staters to stay out of WA. They are a very parochial bunch anyway, but this has just reinforced it. They love McGowan, but word on the street is they donít have a contact tracing division, or a decent supply of respirators and other ICU type medical equipment, and after the SA blip, they are madly trying to get their act together just in case.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 11:36
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Originally Posted by Ragnor
What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool? He is not attending national cabinet in Canberra because SM the SA premier is attending saying he doesnít want to catch cooties from him.
As a tax payer I would like to see all of them doing a lot more on zoom....
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 13:30
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Originally Posted by Roj approved
My mother in law and the rest of the family live in WA, and I can assure you they are more than happy with us COVID carrying eastern staters to stay out of WA. They are a very parochial bunch anyway, but this has just reinforced it. They love McGowan, but word on the street is they donít have a contact tracing division, or a decent supply of respirators and other ICU type medical equipment, and after the SA blip, they are madly trying to get their act together just in case.
Rubbish! WA has had an automated monitoring and contact tracing system in place since April. 50 staff with a standby pool of 400, expanding to 1000. 4691 additional response pool positions in medicine, nursing, pathology etc. Surge capacity ICU beds to 647, 273 ventilators (90 more on order) giving an estimate to manage 25,800 active cases. Targeting 40wks of PPE (Some items at this level, remaining around 18wks supply). Aged care response plan tested in August. All documented in Attorney Generals report in September. GtoG App with ability to home isolate (photo schedule messaging) and just implemented QR code sign in app for restaurants etc.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 17:08
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Originally Posted by Ragnor
What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool?
Plenty of WA ppl have never been to the east coast and simply donít care. Theyíre happy to keep the plague out.

I donít really understand why East Coasters care about WA, with the vast majority of us having nothing to do with the sandgropers. Queensland and NSW border on the other hand is understandable, thereís a huge mixing of people.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 19:03
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I don't care to much for the West either, there are others that do for reason like family employment etc. Still no need for an elected leader to carry on like a child, its the whole school yard taunt " I don't want to touch him he has cooties"
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 19:52
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Originally Posted by Ragnor
I don't care to much for the West either, there are others that do for reason like family employment etc. Still no need for an elected leader to carry on like a child, its the whole school yard taunt " I don't want to touch him he has cooties"
If he had gone and met with Marshall you'd call him a hypocrite. He stuck to his own rules, which is more than can be said for Gladys.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 20:04
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Originally Posted by Ladloy
If he had gone and met with Marshall you'd call him a hypocrite. He stuck to his own rules, which is more than can be said for Gladys.
Yeah shame on Gladys for being the only Premier with the confidence and intellect to balance an economy and pandemic at the same time.


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Old 10th Dec 2020, 20:25
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Originally Posted by Ladloy
If he had gone and met with Marshall you'd call him a hypocrite. He stuck to his own rules, which is more than can be said for Gladys.
Say what you will about McGowan at least heís been consistent. HeĎs stuck by his own rules even though itís separated him and his family in NSW this whole time. And he didnít bend the rules to give them an exemption. Pretty consistent and non-corrupt if you ask me. Isnít that what we seek in leaders?
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