Jetstar EBA 2019
Do your own sums but what the AFAP have delivered is way more than I thought possible particularly given the wages policy.
Each to their own of course but I am voting YES and will happily take the extra 55K min per year and live in Oz.
Correct....as a CCB its north of 30% by 2025, even more depending on how much you work. The 787 people will do even better with the Highline allowance changes and their multi day trips.
Do your own sums but what the AFAP have delivered is way more than I thought possible particularly given the wages policy.
Each to their own of course but I am voting YES and will happily take the extra 55K min per year and live in Oz.
Do your own sums but what the AFAP have delivered is way more than I thought possible particularly given the wages policy.
Each to their own of course but I am voting YES and will happily take the extra 55K min per year and live in Oz.
What a horsesh*t, moot argument.
Paxed on duty recently after nil hotel booking nor transport booked for me on arrival. Been allocated a middle seat in row of four. Min rest then operated again early next morning. These are the issues that need to be fixed to warrant considering a YES vote.
But I asked this question a few posts back (not at you obviously) what are you wanting? Realistically?
The above post regarding hotels and transport, the current EBA ALREADY has stipulations in the agreement and they STILL don’t follow it. It will take someone with some balls to take them to fair work over it. No one’s bothered as yet and that includes me. I have serious doubts that voting no to an EBA is going to cure all hotel and transport issues.
I’ve bought it up with my manager and zero was done about it so I don’t bother doing those duties, because I CBF with those headaches mentioned. I leave it to the guys chasing the WDO’s and there seems to be plenty on those patterns…..
So back to issue, what would be an acceptable pay rise amongst everything else on offer?
Honestly if the company can't respect you enough to not give you a middle seat (in the least) then what do They expect.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Round the corner
Age: 61
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
3 Posts
Sure, I agree with you.
But I asked this question a few posts back (not at you obviously) what are you wanting? Realistically?
The above post regarding hotels and transport, the current EBA ALREADY has stipulations in the agreement and they STILL don’t follow it. It will take someone with some balls to take them to fair work over it. No one’s bothered as yet and that includes me. I have serious doubts that voting no to an EBA is going to cure all hotel and transport issues.
I’ve bought it up with my manager and zero was done about it so I don’t bother doing those duties, because I CBF with those headaches mentioned. I leave it to the guys chasing the WDO’s and there seems to be plenty on those patterns…..
So back to issue, what would be an acceptable pay rise amongst everything else on offer?
But I asked this question a few posts back (not at you obviously) what are you wanting? Realistically?
The above post regarding hotels and transport, the current EBA ALREADY has stipulations in the agreement and they STILL don’t follow it. It will take someone with some balls to take them to fair work over it. No one’s bothered as yet and that includes me. I have serious doubts that voting no to an EBA is going to cure all hotel and transport issues.
I’ve bought it up with my manager and zero was done about it so I don’t bother doing those duties, because I CBF with those headaches mentioned. I leave it to the guys chasing the WDO’s and there seems to be plenty on those patterns…..
So back to issue, what would be an acceptable pay rise amongst everything else on offer?
That being the case, its easily argued that the current offer is really where we should have been as a starting point for negotiations for the current EA.
To bring the pilot group up to a realistic point of pay ( given the other conditions involved or lack thereof ) about another 10 to 15% would be reasonable. On top of what has been " negotiated ".
I guess the " special guests " at the roadshows can explain why we arent worth what others in the industry are.
Should be VERY interesting indeed.
MCD
Last edited by ManillaChillaDilla; 28th Oct 2022 at 06:33.
It may seem like an aside but hear me out. I listened to an interesting discussion on "The Money" the other day:
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...times/14090348
This discussed central banks worldwide dropping historically low inflation targets of old such as the 2-3% band of the RBA in part, because policymakers are working against them (monetary policy versus fiscal stimulus) with ever increasing spending and in part, becase it leaves no lever left to pull when interest rates go to zero as they did. Governments are now also looking for inflation to cure the debt problem, which it can do to a large degree.
As it happens, the new Labor government, with bipartisan support, is conucting a root and branch review of the RBA with a view to changing their primary objective from inflation targeting to "other measures". It would not be at all surprising to find that inflation ends up remaining higher than 3% for the forseeable future in part due to continued growth in both government and consumer spending and in part due to to a new ambit for the RBA.
That may leave Jetstar's "attractive" offer of a to year wage freeze + statutory obligations + 3% looking a little less attractive.
I'll be interested to hear what advocates will say for this deal in public. I'm not particualrly interested in the clause "If they get 5%, we want it too". That sounds like a recipe for getting squat.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...times/14090348
This discussed central banks worldwide dropping historically low inflation targets of old such as the 2-3% band of the RBA in part, because policymakers are working against them (monetary policy versus fiscal stimulus) with ever increasing spending and in part, becase it leaves no lever left to pull when interest rates go to zero as they did. Governments are now also looking for inflation to cure the debt problem, which it can do to a large degree.
As it happens, the new Labor government, with bipartisan support, is conucting a root and branch review of the RBA with a view to changing their primary objective from inflation targeting to "other measures". It would not be at all surprising to find that inflation ends up remaining higher than 3% for the forseeable future in part due to continued growth in both government and consumer spending and in part due to to a new ambit for the RBA.
That may leave Jetstar's "attractive" offer of a to year wage freeze + statutory obligations + 3% looking a little less attractive.
I'll be interested to hear what advocates will say for this deal in public. I'm not particualrly interested in the clause "If they get 5%, we want it too". That sounds like a recipe for getting squat.
You’re right, it is simple FOI:
1. If you’re a fool and don't realise that there’s the worldnis a significantly bigger than Australian aviation and that job was about to give you a 20%+ payrise by mid 2025 which is FAR below the industry average locally and internationally, which still doesn't make way for the 2015 pay freeze which was promised to be recovered and only given that much because it's directed by the award, you’d vote YES,
2. If you realise that in fact being on an EBA where you don't have easy access to different arrangements, Flexi and carers lines, highline which is unreasonable as a level 2/3 FO, financial protection when delayed into a DDO at half rate and still no protection of your DDO because **** you all, the minimum increases in all allowances because again it's derived off what the minimum requirement, then you’d vote YES,
3. If you consider the companies investment in additional state of the art new aircraft where you might get a command in 8-10 years and you will never see the left seat of a wide body, where compared to QF with turn over and resignations you will get a WB command with in 16-18 years making it a feasible and broad range work environment compared to max overnights and paxing, no protections with rosters and no duty travel protection and a bidding system that's broken and a guaranteed 75.1 hours a month to make you take 4 standby days, you’d vote YES,
4. If you recognise the leave system has been broken for decades and now the company will make you take time off when you don't want it, you’d vote YES. However, if you’re sick of putting out fires every day you go into work because of lack of support, resources and manpower, want a better work life balance and a lower EFA, better protections for your work, duty travel, roster, OT and DDO's, hotels and transport standards and a cultural shift then potentially this isn't the deal for you.
Weigh up the priorities, read the document, don't believe anything that's not in writing and dismiss "promises"..
FOI you're not helping anyone when you spread misinformation like you are.
1. If you’re a fool and don't realise that there’s the worldnis a significantly bigger than Australian aviation and that job was about to give you a 20%+ payrise by mid 2025 which is FAR below the industry average locally and internationally, which still doesn't make way for the 2015 pay freeze which was promised to be recovered and only given that much because it's directed by the award, you’d vote YES,
2. If you realise that in fact being on an EBA where you don't have easy access to different arrangements, Flexi and carers lines, highline which is unreasonable as a level 2/3 FO, financial protection when delayed into a DDO at half rate and still no protection of your DDO because **** you all, the minimum increases in all allowances because again it's derived off what the minimum requirement, then you’d vote YES,
3. If you consider the companies investment in additional state of the art new aircraft where you might get a command in 8-10 years and you will never see the left seat of a wide body, where compared to QF with turn over and resignations you will get a WB command with in 16-18 years making it a feasible and broad range work environment compared to max overnights and paxing, no protections with rosters and no duty travel protection and a bidding system that's broken and a guaranteed 75.1 hours a month to make you take 4 standby days, you’d vote YES,
4. If you recognise the leave system has been broken for decades and now the company will make you take time off when you don't want it, you’d vote YES. However, if you’re sick of putting out fires every day you go into work because of lack of support, resources and manpower, want a better work life balance and a lower EFA, better protections for your work, duty travel, roster, OT and DDO's, hotels and transport standards and a cultural shift then potentially this isn't the deal for you.
Weigh up the priorities, read the document, don't believe anything that's not in writing and dismiss "promises"..
FOI you're not helping anyone when you spread misinformation like you are.
And it certainly isn’t me spreading misinformation. The only people I’m “not helping” are those like yourself that are intent on self destruction and bringing all of us down with your miserable outlooks on life.
If Qantas and your match box calculation theorem is correct and a left seat of one of their wide body aircraft in 16 years is feasible, then apply, pass their tests, join the queue and start the moaning process over there.
Considering there has been no pay rises for at least 4 years, in theory you could use 12% loss incurred plus that little thing about not being payed at all for 2 years.
That being the case, its easily argued that the current offer is really where we should have been as a starting point for negotiations for the current EA.
To bring the pilot group up to a realistic point of pay ( given the other conditions involved or lack thereof ) about another 10 to 15% would be reasonable. On top of what has been " negotiated ".
I guess the " special guests " at the roadshows can explain why we arent worth what others in the industry are.
Should be VERY interesting indeed.
MCD
That being the case, its easily argued that the current offer is really where we should have been as a starting point for negotiations for the current EA.
To bring the pilot group up to a realistic point of pay ( given the other conditions involved or lack thereof ) about another 10 to 15% would be reasonable. On top of what has been " negotiated ".
I guess the " special guests " at the roadshows can explain why we arent worth what others in the industry are.
Should be VERY interesting indeed.
MCD
And to address the “special guests can explain why we aren’t worth what others in the industry are” typically idiotic statement: By my calculations, and to compare apples with apples, let’s focus on Australian jet high capacity operations:
You will be paid significantly more than:
1. National Jet System Pilots (B717 soon A220)
2. Network Aviation Pilots (F100 and A320)
4. Rex Pilots (B737)
5. Alliance Pilots (F70/100 and E190)
6. Cobham Pilots (E190)
7. Airnorth Pilots (E170/E190)
8. Express Freighters Pilots (B737/A321)
9. Virgin Australia Regional Pilots (F100/A320)
9. And arguably Virgin Australia Pilots (B737)
We did once compare ourselves to Tigerair when they received a 16% uplift, inconveniently they went broke. Then we tried Virgin, inconveniently they went broke and got rescued. So now we focus on the national carrier, because that’s all that’s left that’s perceived as getting something better than us?
Last edited by FOI; 29th Oct 2022 at 02:20.
Ok, so by going through all your points one by one, I ascertain that you just want a lot more money without the inconvenience of the working for a living bit.
And it certainly isn’t me spreading misinformation. The only people I’m “not helping” are those like yourself that are intent on self destruction and bringing all of us down with your miserable outlooks on life.
If Qantas and your match box calculation theorem is correct and a left seat of one of their wide body aircraft in 16 years is feasible, then apply, pass their tests, join the queue and start the moaning process over there.
And it certainly isn’t me spreading misinformation. The only people I’m “not helping” are those like yourself that are intent on self destruction and bringing all of us down with your miserable outlooks on life.
If Qantas and your match box calculation theorem is correct and a left seat of one of their wide body aircraft in 16 years is feasible, then apply, pass their tests, join the queue and start the moaning process over there.
The base money isn't too far off, but it is lower than a threshold I personally would accept, I would like a significant rewrite of the protections around lifestyle - Your assumption is wrong.
Majority of the points you made are factually incorrect, hence why myself and others have corrected your misinformation - original statement stands, stop spreading misinformation, you're not helping anyone.
"If you don't like it, leave" rhetoric seems to be your go to. I'd rather make this employer a better place to work for everyone.
The pilot base has shown quite strongly that they can survive hardship from the last EA through to covid and now the QF IR bullying, if that take the pilot base to vote no and go to PIA then so be it, but again FOI, I would caution your decision before you read the, ironically delayed document.
There's not much to the substance you're bring to this conversation.
The base money isn't too far off, but it is lower than a threshold I personally would accept, I would like a significant rewrite of the protections around lifestyle - Your assumption is wrong.
Majority of the points you made are factually incorrect, hence why myself and others have corrected your misinformation - original statement stands, stop spreading misinformation, you're not helping anyone.
"If you don't like it, leave" rhetoric seems to be your go to. I'd rather make this employer a better place to work for everyone.
The pilot base has shown quite strongly that they can survive hardship from the last EA through to covid and now the QF IR bullying, if that take the pilot base to vote no and go to PIA then so be it, but again FOI, I would caution your decision before you read the, ironically delayed document.
The base money isn't too far off, but it is lower than a threshold I personally would accept, I would like a significant rewrite of the protections around lifestyle - Your assumption is wrong.
Majority of the points you made are factually incorrect, hence why myself and others have corrected your misinformation - original statement stands, stop spreading misinformation, you're not helping anyone.
"If you don't like it, leave" rhetoric seems to be your go to. I'd rather make this employer a better place to work for everyone.
The pilot base has shown quite strongly that they can survive hardship from the last EA through to covid and now the QF IR bullying, if that take the pilot base to vote no and go to PIA then so be it, but again FOI, I would caution your decision before you read the, ironically delayed document.
It’s not astrophysics, I can add:
July 2021 3%
July 2022 3% (+ Award compliance)
July 2023 3%
July 2024 3%
July 2025 3%
= Minimum + 20% (BASE SALARY ALONE)
Highline - increase in full rates (min 10% over life of agreement) + a rate to be paid IN addition to your 100% being paid whilst operating at 50% from sign-off at layover until sign-on on layover
Increases to DTA/ODTA rates (14% - 18%)
Increase to EFA rates
Proper Carers lines - as I understand it there’ll be part/full-time options (lifestyle)
Increase to Star Days annually - 9 to 13 (lifestyle)
Increase to annual leave slot ability and improvements to priority system (lifestyle)
Unscheduled Overnight + Misconnections defined processes + remuneration compensation (lifestyle)
Single week annual leave access for Flexi-Line pilots (lifestyle)….
You basically have no idea what you’re talking about do you LOC?
And it’s not rhetorical the statements about leaving. Some on here bang on endlessly about how much better it is in the US (money wise at least). It’s a simple fact, if it’s the money down to the cent alone, who’s stopping you? They pay it there obviously because they have to, they offer visas to foreigners because they have to; you’re on a fixed term contract on a temporary visa, if that floats your boat then give it a go.
Last edited by FOI; 29th Oct 2022 at 02:37.
Sectors get cancelled all the time for just about any reason. I don’t want my pay dependant upon things running smoothly. Because I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but it’s a circus at the moment. Right now I’m rostered 75 hours, but I regularly only fly 60. It costs me nothing and I don’t turn up to work fatigued. If we have a lower threshold and our pay is dependent upon turning up, we will have pilots turning up fatigued to lock in EFA.
It’s not for me. I’ll happily stick with 75 hours, higher base pay and leave all the risk on the company. I don’t complain, I go fatigued. I still think the smart think to do is lock in a 23% increase to base pay. Negotiating further improvements sounds like at least another 6 months of no pay rises. I personally don't get too upset if I have to call fatigued, it's what is necessary to improve my lifestyle and it costs me nothing - or at least it doesn't while the threshold is so high. I'm still an enthusiastic YES.
Ah yes the star day increase they will have to re write that whole clause. Currently you can only apply for two per month. Will it be 3 once a month in 12 or will they allow 3 or 4 in a one month period.
The reality is you will find few people earning our level of salary and having "a lifestyle". The company owns them 24/7 with demanding hours and corporate deadlines. Not sitting by the pool on a layover. Most of us have had a taste of reality during covid as a check and trainer stacking shelves at woolies etc. No responsibilty, great lifesytle but with a matching pay packet.
There are choices available in life.
There are choices available in life.
The reality is you will find few people earning our level of salary and having "a lifestyle". The company owns them 24/7 with demanding hours and corporate deadlines. Not sitting by the pool on a layover. Most of us have had a taste of reality during covid as a check and trainer stacking shelves at woolies etc. No responsibilty, great lifesytle but with a matching pay packet.
There are choices available in life.
There are choices available in life.
And if you believe that, you’ll believe anything.
It may seem like an aside but hear me out. I listened to an interesting discussion on "The Money" the other day:
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...times/14090348
This discussed central banks worldwide dropping historically low inflation targets of old such as the 2-3% band of the RBA in part, because policymakers are working against them (monetary policy versus fiscal stimulus) with ever increasing spending and in part, becase it leaves no lever left to pull when interest rates go to zero as they did. Governments are now also looking for inflation to cure the debt problem, which it can do to a large degree.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...times/14090348
This discussed central banks worldwide dropping historically low inflation targets of old such as the 2-3% band of the RBA in part, because policymakers are working against them (monetary policy versus fiscal stimulus) with ever increasing spending and in part, becase it leaves no lever left to pull when interest rates go to zero as they did. Governments are now also looking for inflation to cure the debt problem, which it can do to a large degree.
Higher inflation reduces the real value of the government’s outstanding debt while increasing the tax burden on capital investment due to lack of inflation indexing. Increasing the current annual inflation target regime from 2 percent to 3 percent inflation reduces debt while lowering GDP.
Read the Penn Wharton University of Pennsylvania's full report here: https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.ed...overnment-debt
In short, any newly signed EBA that DOES NOT include the term "CPI + (X)%" is the equivalent of longterm Financial Suicide - don't believe me, save this thread and lets review it in 5 years time
