Jetstar EBA 2019
The risk of the business is transferred to the pilot under a low overtime system. Funny how that risk is never offset by reward….
Ask many a Virgin pilot about moving to a system with a low MGH - they hate it. Do not underestimate the importance of a guaranteed salary. Any attempt to move to a lower overtime threshold should be resisted at every step unless it comes with a significant increase to your hourly rate.
The risk of the business is transferred to the pilot under a low overtime system. Funny how that risk is never offset by reward….
The risk of the business is transferred to the pilot under a low overtime system. Funny how that risk is never offset by reward….
Understand and be careful what you wish for.
What do I want?
1. A lower EFA is okay, but it must be in a conjunction with an increase in base salary. I would accept the proposed pay in the agreement but at 60 hours.
2. Treated in the exact same way as QF/ Qlink when it comes to staff and duty travel, lounge's etc. Sick and tired of being treated like a piece of garbage. Even on JQ, Having to rely on the goodwill of ground staff to find me a half decent seat and beg for free cup of tea or a sandwich on board is degrading and disrespectful to the position I hold.
3. Open time system. I have no interest in working hard. Some people do. Give people some Level of control in their lives.
4. A fair rostering/ bidding system that results in more days Off if you work harder. JQ are taking the piss at the moment.
5. I like over nights, so generally jbid work's for me but they should be distributed fairer. Give them to the people that want them. I'll forgo a few days at home if it means no 4 sector days X 5. Others are ok with that. Again it's about providing choice and bit of control. Loosing control terrifies Jetstar.
6. Same standard of hotels as QF
7. Same standard of crew meals as QF and a return of crew meals on trans Tasman ops. (Maybe opt in?) It's a pain trying to organise food but still comply with lags etc. It's an international flight FFS.
8. An end to the games, lies and dishonesty subjected on us from crewing and work force planning.
9. Adequate crew number's
10. Not treating the FRMS limits as a target. I thought the tenth time I called in fatigued on a late to early transition they'd get the message but I guess not....
That's all a joke by the way....none of those thing's have any hope of happening. I've (almost) come to terms with that I will always be seen as a lower class piece of **** by the QF group. So instead Of being angry, Im trying to embrace it and focus on being a piece of **** employee in return. I still get angry occasionally but it's getting less. Look after my pax, look after my crew and f*CK jetstar.
1. A lower EFA is okay, but it must be in a conjunction with an increase in base salary. I would accept the proposed pay in the agreement but at 60 hours.
2. Treated in the exact same way as QF/ Qlink when it comes to staff and duty travel, lounge's etc. Sick and tired of being treated like a piece of garbage. Even on JQ, Having to rely on the goodwill of ground staff to find me a half decent seat and beg for free cup of tea or a sandwich on board is degrading and disrespectful to the position I hold.
3. Open time system. I have no interest in working hard. Some people do. Give people some Level of control in their lives.
4. A fair rostering/ bidding system that results in more days Off if you work harder. JQ are taking the piss at the moment.
5. I like over nights, so generally jbid work's for me but they should be distributed fairer. Give them to the people that want them. I'll forgo a few days at home if it means no 4 sector days X 5. Others are ok with that. Again it's about providing choice and bit of control. Loosing control terrifies Jetstar.
6. Same standard of hotels as QF
7. Same standard of crew meals as QF and a return of crew meals on trans Tasman ops. (Maybe opt in?) It's a pain trying to organise food but still comply with lags etc. It's an international flight FFS.
8. An end to the games, lies and dishonesty subjected on us from crewing and work force planning.
9. Adequate crew number's
10. Not treating the FRMS limits as a target. I thought the tenth time I called in fatigued on a late to early transition they'd get the message but I guess not....
That's all a joke by the way....none of those thing's have any hope of happening. I've (almost) come to terms with that I will always be seen as a lower class piece of **** by the QF group. So instead Of being angry, Im trying to embrace it and focus on being a piece of **** employee in return. I still get angry occasionally but it's getting less. Look after my pax, look after my crew and f*CK jetstar.
Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.
A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.
A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.
Well I am an enthusiastic YES voter. My Base Salary will be $246,765 at the end of the agreement which as has been pointed out isn’t that far away. Doing the overnights and hours I do now, which is as little work as possible I expect to earn $285,000. I don’t work any EFA and I’m not interested in WDOs so I don’t work any, and my lifestyle is all the better for it. If I get rostered crap, which is most times, I go fatigued generally on the last day of a run of 5 (early, early, late, late, late). FTG the last late and it turns my crap 3 days off recovery into 4 days and costs me zero. If Jetstar want to roster me crap, no problem, FTG and I make it their problem. I’ve never had a FTG day get nocked back. I get FO’s complaining all the time about how it shouldn’t be this way, I agree, but it is so why work yourself into a lather of worry when you can just use the fatigue procedures to make it their problem. We’re never in EFA so who cares if we drop hours. I don’t understand why pilots want a lower EFA threshold, it just puts more money at risk.
A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.
A big thanks to the reps who made it possible. I hope I’m in the silent majority and I’m eternally grateful for your work. I’ll buy you a beer at the roadshow or downrange.
I would caution anyone making their mind up enthusiastically or not before you have the final wording of the document in your hand, you run the risk of looking like a fool.
Also, the beers are free at the roadshow.
So you finally have a chance to make a real change for good and address some of the issues you outlined above, yet you’ll vote Yes purely to take the cash. You’re the type of buffoon that gets food poisoning at the same restaurant but continues to go back because they keep giving you discount vouchers.
Unashamedly I’ll vote yes. We are being offered what is conservatively a 25% increase in pay, and you want me to put it all at risk because you can’t figure out how to report fatigued? I think it’s pretty smart to lock in the pay rise, fatigue reports will fix the crap rostering when enough pilots do them. History has shown they work eventually.
I worry for the FO's who are going to spend 25-30 years in this company. A 248k base isn't that far away? It's miles away from the pay people should have, I would strongly suggest you work out pay per hour, if you're not shocked work it out for the FO's instead, it's a good time to start thinking collectively as a pilot ground. I would caution anyone making their mind up enthusiastically or not before you have the final wording of the document in your hand, you run the risk of looking like a fool.
So you finally have a chance to make a real change for good and address some of the issues you outlined above, yet you’ll vote Yes purely to take the cash. You’re the type of buffoon that gets food poisoning at the same restaurant but continues to go back because they keep giving you discount vouchers.
Bit ordinary to attack someone because they feel it’s a good deal. They have as much right to vote one way as you do another.
To say certain people are ruining for the f/o’s with 25/30 years left is silly. Most people there in whichever seat, probably still have 25/30 years left.
I worry for the FO's who are going to spend 25-30 years in this company. A 248k base isn't that far away? It's miles away from the pay people should have, I would strongly suggest you work out pay per hour, if you're not shocked work it out for the FO's instead, it's a good time to start thinking collectively as a pilot ground.
It's noble to be looking for better conditions whenever possible, but to smack down an existing long term pilot who's happy where they are when you're a new hire is not going to make the flight deck a happy place.
For all the rubber neckers who want to know what the problems with Jetstar are look no further than clearice's post at #863. It represents the general consensus of what the main issues are. JQ management would also do well to look at that list.
I do find that statement interesting when the ink is still wet on the joining agreement where they signed on for such terms and conditions. Is there some evil empire behind the curtain that suddenly reduces the salary once you are hired or did they look at the big shiny jet and forget to check the fine print before jumping off the cliff?
It's noble to be looking for better conditions whenever possible, but to smack down an existing long term pilot who's happy where they are when you're a new hire is not going to make the flight deck a happy place.
It's noble to be looking for better conditions whenever possible, but to smack down an existing long term pilot who's happy where they are when you're a new hire is not going to make the flight deck a happy place.
Post 863 strikes the issues quite nicely.
As stated, I would caution anyone to make their minds up before the finaly wording is released - that is directed at the pilot group, ALL JPF members, and especially people who say "I have spoken to the negotiating team", don't be foolish.
1. A lower EFA is okay, but it must be in a conjunction with an increase in base salary. I would accept the proposed pay in the agreement but at 60 hours.
25% pay rise over the life of the agreement with 20% less work. I encourage and applaud optimism, but it’s an EBA not a fairytale.
Not having a crack, but do people think that is realistically achievable? I’m keen to see how exactly that’s even do-able…. Just not showing up for work for a few weeks is unlikely to achieve that, so what’s the plan to get it?
Last edited by GA Driver; 25th Oct 2022 at 04:03.
Looking no further down the list (most of which I agree with) item 1 is going to be an issue and a pretty big one at that.
25% pay rise over the life of the agreement with 20% less work. I encourage and applaud optimism, but it’s an EBA not a fairy tail.
Not having a crack, but do people think that is realistically achievable? I’m keen to see how exactly that’s even do-able…. Just not showing up for work for a few weeks is unlikely to achieve that, so what’s the plan to get it?
25% pay rise over the life of the agreement with 20% less work. I encourage and applaud optimism, but it’s an EBA not a fairy tail.
Not having a crack, but do people think that is realistically achievable? I’m keen to see how exactly that’s even do-able…. Just not showing up for work for a few weeks is unlikely to achieve that, so what’s the plan to get it?
Look, everyone will vote how they want. I actually think the EBA will get up. You keep a Hungry dog in a cage and feed it once a week it's hardly going to complain about getting an extra smacko for being a good boy.
I'm just... tierd. I'm tired of the lies and empty promises, I'm tired of feeling subhuman because I work for jetstar. I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall every day I go to work. I'm sick of being the "magic man." (Didn't you know that I can magically fix every departments lack of resources, tell them how to do their jobs, catch all their mistakes and do my own job?) and, I'm tired of being tired...
So yes, I'm ready to face the consequences of a no vote. They want the agreement signed just as much as we do. They are rolling in cash and they need us. They can afford to lube up that pineapple before inserting it in me.
Also have to consider PIA has to be approved, you can't just stop work or there can be severe penalties. That really needs to be discussed with reps as well, if you vote an agreement down that is already offering 25% what are the chances of actually getting PIA approval. Not saying you won't but it starts getting into territory that the company is negotiating but the pilots are not being realistic. That starts getting into the realm of proving you are not causing economic harm to said company and the economy for the hell of it.
Again not against it, but you need to really understand where you stand if pushing for big gains and holding to it, I doubt it will be an easy road. JQ getting big gains is good for everybody, but you may have to do it over successive EBAs.
I do feel for you, but the whole premise JQ was started on was exactly what you are describing, running on fumes with everyone maxed out so there's no fat is what a low cost carrier is about. The real MO for these operations is that they don't want people to stick around, just have enough that do and keep getting more from the vine on their way up the system. What you are wanting to do is change the nature of the company itself, I doubt that will happen. Any Exec is going to tell you that you are important and valued, behind the eyes they just see you as a cost factor and another monkey in the line up spoiling their outcomes. That is the beast you are fighting.
Again not against it, but you need to really understand where you stand if pushing for big gains and holding to it, I doubt it will be an easy road. JQ getting big gains is good for everybody, but you may have to do it over successive EBAs.
I'm just... tierd. I'm tired of the lies and empty promises, I'm tired of feeling subhuman because I work for jetstar. I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall every day I go to work. I'm sick of being the "magic man." (Didn't you know that I can magically fix every departments lack of resources, tell them how to do their jobs, catch all their mistakes and do my own job?) and, I'm tired of being tired...
Last edited by 43Inches; 25th Oct 2022 at 03:45.
Also have to consider PIA has to be approved, you can't just stop work or there can be severe penalties. That really needs to be discussed with reps as well, if you vote an agreement down that is already offering 25% what are the chances of actually getting PIA approval. Not saying you won't but it starts getting into territory that the company is negotiating but the pilots are not being realistic. That starts getting into the realm of proving you are not causing economic harm to said company and the economy for the hell of it.
Again not against it, but you need to really understand where you stand if pushing for big gains and holding to it, I doubt it will be an easy road. JQ getting big gains is good for everybody, but you may have to do it over successive EBAs.
I do feel for you, but the whole premise JQ was started on was exactly what you are describing, running on fumes with everyone maxed out so there's no fat is what a low cost carrier is about. The real MO for these operations is that they don't want people to stick around, just have enough that do and keep getting more from the vine on their way up the system. What you are wanting to do is change the nature of the company itself, I doubt that will happen. Any Exec is going to tell you that you are important and valued, behind the eyes they just see you as a cost factor and another monkey in the line up spoiling their outcomes. That is the beast you are fighting.
Again not against it, but you need to really understand where you stand if pushing for big gains and holding to it, I doubt it will be an easy road. JQ getting big gains is good for everybody, but you may have to do it over successive EBAs.
I do feel for you, but the whole premise JQ was started on was exactly what you are describing, running on fumes with everyone maxed out so there's no fat is what a low cost carrier is about. The real MO for these operations is that they don't want people to stick around, just have enough that do and keep getting more from the vine on their way up the system. What you are wanting to do is change the nature of the company itself, I doubt that will happen. Any Exec is going to tell you that you are important and valued, behind the eyes they just see you as a cost factor and another monkey in the line up spoiling their outcomes. That is the beast you are fighting.
As for not wanting people to stick around, we don't have enough crew as it is. How many FOs have interviewed for QF in the last month or two? A lot.. They are all happy to go be SOs rather than stay at jetstar. Some are probably not far Off widebody FO or captains spot. What does that tell you?
They might not care if people stick around but I don't know where these extra crew are going to come from. Lot's of aircraft on the way.
As someone from the outside looking in, can someone explain where the 25% pay rise on the base salary is coming from, if all they are offering is a 3% per year increase (in line with the QF wages policy)?
Or is it just like EFA where the pay rise is significantly inflated after aligning with the pilot award (i.e. minimum wage)
Or is it just like EFA where the pay rise is significantly inflated after aligning with the pilot award (i.e. minimum wage)
I was incorrect anyway, it isn’t 25% it’s 22.8% as has already been mentioned.
Last pay rise was back in 2018, a few years at 0% then a few years of 3% then another 3 years (life of the agreement) at 3%
All valid points mate. I agree with you that it will need to be done over successive EBAs etc. But that 25% gain was not out of the goodness of their heart. They basically had no choice. That's how terrible our current agreement is.
As for not wanting people to stick around, we don't have enough crew as it is. How many FOs have interviewed for QF in the last month or two? A lot.. They are all happy to go be SOs rather than stay at jetstar. Some are probably not far Off widebody FO or captains spot. What does that tell you?
They might not care if people stick around but I don't know where these extra crew are going to come from. Lot's of aircraft on the way.
As for not wanting people to stick around, we don't have enough crew as it is. How many FOs have interviewed for QF in the last month or two? A lot.. They are all happy to go be SOs rather than stay at jetstar. Some are probably not far Off widebody FO or captains spot. What does that tell you?
They might not care if people stick around but I don't know where these extra crew are going to come from. Lot's of aircraft on the way.
Nothing I disagree with, but you are fighting a monster that's stuck in a 1980s method of thinking they can screw down wages, they were born to drive a wedge in the employee market, now they don't have the supply anymore and its going to take serious restructuring to change the mindset. Some will send the company broke from lack of crew before admitting they need to pay more, offer better conditions and be more selective so that those they do pay more are actually right for the job. JQ is going to have to work out what it wants to be to the market, especially if Rex (very unlikely) decide they want to offer better conditions as they expand the jet fleet, but who knows the bottom feeders are going to have to compete for what few experienced pilots there are or not be bottom feeders anymore.
Every little victory, every little step in the right direction all adds up. This new agreement is hardly that.
Just hope I can find a way out of this hell hole soon enough.